R+L=J v 81

[Stubby]

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread.

“Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

“Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

“The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

“The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

“R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

“R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

“R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

“R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

“R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

“R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

“R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

“R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

“R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

“R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

“R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

“R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

“R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

“R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

“R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

“R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

“R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

“R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

“R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

“R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

“R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

“R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

“R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

“R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

“R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

“R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

“R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

“R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v. 41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty=four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v 58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v 59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v 60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v 61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v 62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v 63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v 64" (thread sixty four)

"R+L=J v 65" (thread sixty five)

R+L=J v 66 (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v 67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v 68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v 69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v 70" (thread seventy)

"R+L=J v 71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v 72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v 73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v 74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v 75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v 76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v. 78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v. 79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v. 80" (thread eighty)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Answering @Corbon this way, because the previous thread got locked before I had the chance:

Are you sure?
My understanding was that Rickard was at Winterfall and Brandon was at Riverrun. Brandon left on a short errand and got the 'abduction' news somehow while he was away, but not that far from, Riverrun.
Rickard and the 200 are only involved after Aerys sends for Rickard to answer to Brandon's crime.
No?

Yes, the updated app provides us with the following information:

Still, Petyr is sent away from Riverrun, while Brandon departs to join his father's wedding party, coming down from the north. But when Brandon hears of Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna on his way back, he abandons Catelyn, racing to King's Landing.

So Rickard and his 200 men were already on their way to Riverrun, and Brandon rode out to meet up with them, promising Catelyn to return shortly, so they could wed.

This also makes the time it would have taken Rickard and his 200 men to travel to KL shorter (they had already done a part of the journey prior to being summoned), and most likely left from Riverrun. Since you don't usually bring your fighting armor to a wedding, I also believe (but this has not yet been confirmed) that Rickard borrowed the armor he died in from Hoster Tully.

In any case, it shortens the timespan of the events a bit.

[ArabellaVidal]

This is in reply to Corbon's last post in the previous thread. Thank you for answering my queries clearly. What you say makes an enormous amount of sense and clears a lot of issues for me.

[corbon]

Answering @Corbon this way, because the previous thread got locked before I had the chance:

Yes, the updated app provides us with the following information:

So Rickard and his 200 men were already on their way to Riverrun, and Brandon rode out to meet up with them, promising Catelyn to return shortly, so they could wed.

This also makes the time it would have taken Rickard and his 200 men to travel to KL shorter (they had already done a part of the journey prior to being summoned), and most likely left from Riverrun. Since you don't usually bring your fighting armor to a wedding, I also believe (but this has not yet been confirmed) that Rickard borrowed the armor he died in from Hoster Tully.

In any case, it shortens the timespan of the events a bit.

Lets set aside the app argument and assumes it counts as canon, even though I don't agree for reasons oft-stated elsewhere. (And this is a good example of why - it makes some reasonable connections that fit some other mysteries and uncertainties and puts them together as facts not presented in the books. In other words, its at least partly what is likely to be true, or close to the truth, from the best knowledge we have.)

Your conclusion is not required by the app information quoted.

There is no indication that Brandon had gotten as far as joining up with Rickard. Nor that the 200 men he later brings when summoned by Aerys are the wedding party.

But it does make sense that Rickard was already a large part of the way to Riverrun, even all the way, when he was summoned by Aerys. And then the 200 would be from as the wedding party.

Its reasonable, but I don't think it justifies saying Rickard and Brandon were coming south together.

But really, thats more or less nitpicking, sorry. :)

This is in reply to Corbon's last post in the previous thread. Thank you for answering my queries clearly. What you say makes an enormous amount of sense and clears a lot of issues for me.

You are welcome.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Lets set aside the app argument and assumes it counts as canon, even though I don't agree for reasons oft-stated elsewhere. (And this is a good example of why - it makes some reasonable connections that fit some other mysteries and uncertainties and puts them together as facts not presented in the books. In other words, its at least partly what is likely to be true, or close to the truth, from the best knowledge we have.)

Your conclusion is not required by the app information quoted.

There is no indication that Brandon had gotten as far as joining up with Rickard. Nor that the 200 men he later brings when summoned by Aerys are the wedding party.

But it does make sense that Rickard was already a large part of the way to Riverrun, even all the way, when he was summoned by Aerys. And then the 200 would be from as the wedding party.

Its reasonable, but I don't think it justifies saying Rickard and Brandon were coming south together.

But really, thats more or less nitpicking, sorry. :)

Nothing to be sorry about ;) :) I nitpick every now and then as well :D

As to the indication that Brandon had not yet joined up with Rickard, both the books and the app state that Brandon was on his way back, Kind of strange to be on your way back if you haven't joined up yet with the person traveling your way.

As to the app and how canon it is: GRRM has provided new information for the app, specially for the update. To call every single new bit of information from the app non-canon, is simply not correct (you're not doing that, but just for the general idea). We can call it all semi-canon, since GRRM has been personally involved, the same way as we call the info from the RPG books semi-canon. GRRM did not write those, and if there is something that has to be chenged for the story of the books to be true, that it will be changed, that's GRRMs power and right as the author.

But looking at the app somewhat closer, you can see that the mysteries aren't confirmed by anything in the app. For example Jon's parentage. In Ned's entry:

But when Eddard returns to the north, he is accompanied by a wet nurse and a baby that he claims is his bastard son, and he installs the child in the castle before Catelyn arrives with his legitimate son,

Here, the app entry says nothing about whether or not Ned truly is Jon's father. Only that he claims to be the father, exactly as in the books. Other examples are the entries of Varys (filled with "claim" and "claims" as well) and Aegon's entry (the same, nothing to confirm nor deny his identity).

The little bits of info given in the app, should not be ignored the way they sometimes are now.

Interestingly enough, (I coincidentally thought of the Ned and Jon example and thus posted it), the quote from the app shows that Ned did return north with Jon, and that both of them were at Winterfell when Catelyn arrived. Perhaps this solves the problem of "what did Ned do with the babe after Starfall?". Though the books suggest that Ned first went to KL (to reconcile with Robert), the app states that Ned and Jon returned north together, meaning that Jon visited KL (or at least the harbor of KL) as well.

[corbon]

Nothing to be sorry about ;) :) I nitpick every now and then as well :D

As to the indication that Brandon had not yet joined up with Rickard, both the books and the app state that Brandon was on his way back, Kind of strange to be on your way back if you haven't joined up yet with the person traveling your way.

What twigged my radar I think was the original post that Brandon was on his way back with Rickard from Winterfell - implying Brandon was coming from winterfell, not just riding out locally to meet Rickard. But then, due to the thread change I couldn't see that at the time of my reply here until I checked back later.

Reagrding the app, lets just agree to disagree. While GRRM has clearly provided some new data, I don't believe for a moment he checked everything with a fine tooth comb himself and we can't tell what is from new data he provided and what is just the sensible simple extrapolations or explanations of the best uvess we already 'knew' from old data even if it wasn't clear or explicit, or even no more than highly likely. The app-fans are commonly inclined to accept everything blindly with no reservations under any circumstances. For me, thats not much different from arguing that Rhaegar clearly raped Lyanna - accepting book text blindly with no reservations. ;)

:P

[Emerentiana_Zamora]

3. and when he's ready, please tell him of about his father, my husband (handing Ned a witness document? Rhaegar's harp? with proof of a Targaryen marriage cloak hanging next to the bed) - not fulfilled

IceFire125 said this right before the other thread closed.

I have always believed that there is something besides Lyanna's bones in her tomb. This explains Bran's dream about Ned in the crypts. It could be that dream Ned was trying to figure out how to open Lyanna's tomb and get something for Jon. This would disturb Bran because for all Bran knows the only thing in Lyanna's tomb is her bones and why would Jon what those?

I personally think it is a letter, but IceFire125's evidence works for me as well.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Nothing to be sorry about ;) :) I nitpick every now and then as well :D

As to the indication that Brandon had not yet joined up with Rickard, both the books and the app state that Brandon was on his way back, Kind of strange to be on your way back if you haven't joined up yet with the person traveling your way.

As to the app and how canon it is: GRRM has provided new information for the app, specially for the update. To call every single new bit of information from the app non-canon, is simply not correct (you're not doing that, but just for the general idea). We can call it all semi-canon, since GRRM has been personally involved, the same way as we call the info from the RPG books semi-canon. GRRM did not write those, and if there is something that has to be chenged for the story of the books to be true, that it will be changed, that's GRRMs power and right as the author.

But looking at the app somewhat closer, you can see that the mysteries aren't confirmed by anything in the app. For example Jon's parentage. In Ned's entry:

Here, the app entry says nothing about whether or not Ned truly is Jon's father. Only that he claims to be the father, exactly as in the books. Other examples are the entries of Varys (filled with "claim" and "claims" as well) and Aegon's entry (the same, nothing to confirm nor deny his identity).

The little bits of info given in the app, should not be ignored the way they sometimes are now.

Interestingly enough, (I coincidentally thought of the Ned and Jon example and thus posted it), the quote from the app shows that Ned did return north with Jon, and that both of them were at Winterfell when Catelyn arrived. Perhaps this solves the problem of "what did Ned do with the babe after Starfall?". Though the books suggest that Ned first went to KL (to reconcile with Robert), the app states that Ned and Jon returned north together, meaning that Jon visited KL (or at least the harbor of KL) as well.

Yes I agree we have to accept the app as basically fact. From what I can tell it is just all the pieces put together for us for each persons back story. And what I really like is (even though a lot of posters on here don't realize it) it really puts some of the more ridiculous 'crackpot' theories to rest. Such as Rhaegar or Ned or Balon Greyjoy being alive, and many others really. From my end, if the app says it, it is evidence.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yes I agree we have to accept the app as basically fact. From what I can tell it is just all the pieces put together for us for each persons back story. And what I really like is (even though a lot of posters on here don't realize it) it really puts some of the more ridiculous 'crackpot' theories to rest. Such as Rhaegar or Ned or Balon Greyjoy being alive, and many others really. From my end, if the app says it, it is evidence.

In addition to this, I have been asking Ran about the subject of the app and it's degree of being canon. He said this (emphasis mine):

Any info that is erroneous would be our part. But I can't think of anything in the app which isn't canonical in the sense that it's from GRRM. That said, until it's actually published in the books, it's not set in stone I guess.

(in response to the question how big the chances would be that information revealed from the app only are going to be changed for the story in the future:)

Rhaenys,

Well, there's a chance anyways. I can't estimate how great a chance. I think for stuff related to the far eastern regions, it's extremely likely to say as is. For stuff closer to Westeros (and the story), chances may be lesser, depending. Are there some specific details you're curious about?

Ran also posted this about 2 years ago:

So, this is now published, the official companion app to the A Song of Ice and Fire series. Linda and I had a hand in it, and mostly it just covers information that hardcore fans already know or know how to find.

But, there are some new things in there, straight from George. And I'm going to reveal one of them:

GRRM finally gave us the age of Ser Gerold Dayne. As some of you know, one speculation is that he's in fact Aegon Targaryen. Another that I've seen recently is that he's in fact father to Aegon, by way of Ashara, or something. In the former case, he'd have to be about 18, give or take. In the latter, he'd have to be about of an age with poor, dead Ned, so mid to late 30s.

He is neither. Straight from the GRRM, he's in his "late twenties". 26-29. He'd have been about 9-12 at the time of Robert's Rebellion, much too old for Aegon, much too young for Ashara.

:smoking:

Edited by Ran, 27 November 2012 - 08:16 PM.

(had to quote it this way since the topic was locked)

So, to me, it sounds like, especially those things that have a close connection to the story, that are revealed in the app, are very trustworthy.

[Dany's Silver]

<snip>

So, to me, it sounds like, especially those things that have a close connection to the story, that are revealed in the app, are very trustworthy.

Thanks for that information. It's good to know that there's plenty of reliable information in the app.

[MtnLion]

Interestingly enough, (I coincidentally thought of the Ned and Jon example and thus posted it), the quote from the app shows that Ned did return north with Jon, and that both of them were at Winterfell when Catelyn arrived. Perhaps this solves the problem of "what did Ned do with the babe after Starfall?". Though the books suggest that Ned first went to KL (to reconcile with Robert), the app states that Ned and Jon returned north together, meaning that Jon visited KL (or at least the harbor of KL) as well.

This pretty much fall into line with how I perceived that Ned handled things. He took ship in Starfall and returned to Winterfell, post haste. The book says that Ned and Robert reconciled over the shared grief about Lyanna's death, but it does not say when they did. I think it is more than safe to say that Ned took the western route home, and after a year or so (maybe Cersei's wedding) went back to King's Landing where they cried in their ale. During the time immediately following the war, Ned is absolutely wroth with Robert and has a valid reason to fear any suspicions about Jon. Best for Ned to remain away for a time.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

This pretty much fall into line with how I perceived that Ned handled things. He took ship in Starfall and returned to Winterfell, post haste. The book says that Ned and Robert reconciled over the shared grief about Lyanna's death, but it does not say when they did. I think it is more than safe to say that Ned took the western route home, and after a year or so (maybe Cersei's wedding) went back to King's Landing where they cried in their ale. During the time immediately following the war, Ned is absolutely wroth with Robert and has a valid reason to fear any suspicions about Jon. Best for Ned to remain away for a time.

That's possible, of course, but could Ned get away with returning north without going to KL to see Robert and give Robert a chance to say farewell to Lyanna? Ned could have gotten on a ship at Starfall, and stopped at KL, leaving Jon on the ship.

Because the more stops Ned makes on his journey north (no matter how short), that would make it more difficult for people to figure out where Jon came from..

[yolkboy]

Yes I agree we have to accept the app as basically fact. From what I can tell it is just all the pieces put together for us for each persons back story. And what I really like is (even though a lot of posters on here don't realize it) it really puts some of the more ridiculous 'crackpot' theories to rest. Such as Rhaegar or Ned or Balon Greyjoy being alive, and many others really. From my end, if the app says it, it is evidence.

The app 'confirms' the deaths of Sandor Clegane, Jon Snow, Ashara Dayne.

Sandor Clegane entry... "Place of Death : Riverlands"

Jon Snow entry... "Place of Death : Castle Black"

Ashara Dayne.... "Place of death : Starfall"

Melisandre : "Origin : Asshai"

from the text....

That was a lesson Melisandre had learned long before Asshai

(this proves the app has an element of interpretation)

The app has a problem in that it must abide by 'current canon', like the appendix to some extent, or reveal lots of grrms secrets he has lined up for future books. If we're going to say the app is canon, then look at all of the above and accept it as fact. Sandor and Jon are dead, it's made very clear.

Alternatively - accept that the app not the whole truth and should be treated with suspicion. I know my standards of canon, and I won't take a source which contradicts grrms text as being fact.

Some people want to pick and choose what they take from the app, that's down to personal choice I guess. It's true grrm has had direct input, but be careful with assuming it's all fact i think.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Interestingly enough, (I coincidentally thought of the Ned and Jon example and thus posted it), the quote from the app shows that Ned did return north with Jon, and that both of them were at Winterfell when Catelyn arrived. Perhaps this solves the problem of "what did Ned do with the babe after Starfall?". Though the books suggest that Ned first went to KL (to reconcile with Robert), the app states that Ned and Jon returned north together, meaning that Jon visited KL (or at least the harbor of KL) as well.

That's possible, of course, but could Ned get away with returning north without going to KL to see Robert and give Robert a chance to say farewell to Lyanna? Ned could have gotten on a ship at Starfall, and stopped at KL, leaving Jon on the ship.

Because the more stops Ned makes on his journey north (no matter how short), that would make it more difficult for people to figure out where Jon came from..

I'm curious why you think the books suggest Ned went to KL immediately after ToJ? That's not my reading at all, and it's oft discussed here. I'm more of the opinion that he went to WF first and then took Cat to KL for Robert & Cersei's wedding. But, as the books don't say that either it's merely my theory :D

As for the app issue, doesn't this:

Any info that is erroneous would be our part. But I can't think of anything in the app which isn't canonical in the sense that it's from GRRM. That said, until it's actually published in the books, it's not set in stone I guess.

support yolkboy's point above? That is, we don't know exactly the nature of GRRM's input, so there could be errors of interpretation, plus the app is limited by "current canon" and can only report what the books have told us (or the mysterious, undefined "new information" from GRRM, which I suspect is in the nature of things that will be revealed in the World book) We are not about to get major reveals on theories or mysteries from this tool, and i don't believe it should be used in support of anything. It's a fun reference tool, but really needs to be taken with a large grain of salt. Don't forget that until the release of AFfC, it would have been considered "canon" that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn ;)

[ladyinblack]

The app 'confirms' the deaths of Sandor Clegane, Jon Snow, Ashara Dayne.

Sandor Clegane entry... "Place of Death : Riverlands"

Jon Snow entry... "Place of Death : Castle Black"

Ashara Dayne.... "Place of death : Starfall"

Melisandre : "Origin : Asshai"

from the text....

(this proves the app has an element of interpretation)

The app has a problem in that it must abide by 'current canon', like the appendix to some extent, or reveal lots of grrms secrets he has lined up for future books. If we're going to say the app is canon, then look at all of the above and accept it as fact. Sandor and Jon are dead, it's made very clear.

Alternatively - accept that the app not the whole truth and should be treated with suspicion. I know my standards of canon, and I won't take a source which contradicts grrms text as being fact.

Some people want to pick and choose what they take from the app, that's down to personal choice I guess. It's true grrm has had direct input, but be careful with assuming it's all fact i think.

I heartily agree!

[corbon]

I heartily agree!

[sarcasm font] Oh, no, no no .... we have to accept the app as basically fact.[/sarcasm font]

Sorry Suzannah, but you so totally proved my point. I tried not too, but confess I wasn't strong enough. I also feel a little guity for accidentally starting this off again (I did start with stating I was happy to assume for that argument that the app data was solid) and then leaving it to others to argue when it turns into a discussion.

Its very simple from my perspective.

The app has new information from GRRM in it. Possibly even 99.9% of the new information is direct from GRRM (I doubt that much, but the argument remains the same whether it is that much or not). But we don't know what is and what isn't, and we don't know what is just 'current canon' (even though we know it isn't really true, like Sandor being dead) and what is real 'new canon'.

So we can't take anything from the app as definitively canon, because we just don't know. Stuff from the app can be a strong indication of likelihood, but it could be any of:

- 'current canon' but actually untrue

- interpretation of other events/facts that makes the most sense and is therefore very highly probable, not not actually confirmed in any way by GRRM as yet (and not important enough to stand out in his screening of the app data)

- canon from the books

- new canon from GRRM direct to the app

Its also possible, I guess, that there are still plain old mistakes - some were found and corrected since its release. I doubt there are more than a handful in the whole thing by now, if any, but there still could be. I'm just as happy to assume that there are none, by now, but the problem is that still doesn't fix the first two categories above.

Frankly, I'm happy to take anything thats completely new 'facts' out of the blue, that don't have any supporting data in the books - like Darkstar's age for example - as canon. There's no other reason I can see to put that sort of thing in the app other than direct data from GRRM.

But anything that could easily be an extrapolation because it simply fits well into other data or puzzles or stories - like Rickard being already on the way to the wedding (it makes logical sense he'd be coming to the wedding and it makes the timeline a fair bit easier to reconcile) leaves me uncertain as to how much it is input from GRRM directly and how much it is 3rd party interpretation that could be scanned over by GRRM and easily missed, or ignored due to being minor or more or less irrelevant in the big scheme of things. Especially stuff thats almost indirect in its presentation. Its probably true, and its probably canon, but we just can't be sure at this stage.

[ladyinblack]

So you start with your theory ~crackpot~ insight & set out to back it up with book quotes, wiki, show bits & apps

Then you pray to the old gods and the new that it all combines into a perfect Eureka moment of clarity!,

Well still working on that

[AlliYoyo]

The app 'confirms' the deaths of Sandor Clegane, Jon Snow, Ashara Dayne.

Sandor Clegane entry... "Place of Death : Riverlands"

Jon Snow entry... "Place of Death : Castle Black"

Ashara Dayne.... "Place of death : Starfall"

[snip]

Um, hasn't GRRM said somewhere "Oh, you think he's dead, do you?" in regards to Jon's status at the end of ADWD? I'm sure I've read that...

[The guy from the Vale]

Um, hasn't GRRM said somewhere "Oh, you think he's dead, do you?" in regards to Jon's status at the end of ADWD? I'm sure I've read that...

Yep. And Sandor's case is even more blatant: we're shown he is still alive... we just don't know if he'll get back into the story again.

[AlliYoyo]

Yep. And Sandor's case is even more blatant: we're shown he is still alive... we just don't know if he'll get back into the story again.

Do we? Or is that just a theory? I've read the theory...