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A Compendium of Theories v.2


Angalin
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Lysa and Sweetrobin have lead poisoning. Lysa uses paint and powder for her face, and lead was a component in many of these sort of facial powders. Both have some of the symptoms of lead poisoning: Lysa has aggressive behavior and irritability, while Sweetrobin has signs of developmental delays physical and mental and behavior problems. Sweetrobin may have absorbed lead via the placenta while Lysa was pregnant with him or through breast milk.

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  • 3 months later...

Robb Stark is still alive & hidden in Riverrun under the fake name. The Blackfish saved him to honor his mother's last request. As for his 'death', the chapter was told from Catelyn's POV and all she saw was him being stabbed. She died shortly afterwards, so she couldn't tell us whether he really died or not. The body with wolf's head being paraded is some random dude the Freys found and used in order to hide the fact he is still alive.

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  • 5 months later...
On 6/3/2014 at 7:14 AM, Mladen said:

Ned's mother isn't from Skagos. She was Stark, Rickard's cousin

It was Ned's grandma who was half Skagosi and half flint(they sealed the Skagos rebellion with a marriage like joffrey and margaery) it's a whole other thread though 

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8 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

It was Ned's grandma who was half Skagosi and half flint(they sealed the Skagos rebellion with a marriage like joffrey and margaery) it's a whole other thread though 

Jesus... That post is six years old :D 

Since then, World of Ice and Fire came out and some things got clarified. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

The woman that gave red-black cloak to Mance Rayder was Shiera Seastar/shadowbinder Quaithe from Asshai. She's a cat-warg, same as her mother was, and she orchestrated what happened to Mance, she's the reason why he left Night's Watch:

ASOS, Jon I " "The black wool cloak of a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch," said the King-beyond-the-Wall. "One day on a ranging we brought down a fine big elk. We were skinning it when the smell of blood drew a SHADOW-CAT out of its lair. I drove it off, but not before it shredded my cloak to ribbons. Do you see? Here, here, and here?" He chuckled. "It shredded my arm and back as well, and I bled worse than the elk. My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the SHADOW TOWER, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from ASSHAI that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me." He swept the cloak back over his shoulders. "But at the Shadow Tower, I was given a new wool cloak from stores, black and black, and trimmed with black, to go with my black breeches and black boots, my black doublet and black mail. The new cloak had no frays nor rips nor tears . . . and most of all, no red. The men of the Night's Watch dressed in black, Ser Denys Mallister reminded me sternly, as if I had forgotten. My old cloak was FIT FOR BURNING now, he said.

"I left the next morning . . . " "

The woman, that healed Mance, wasn't old wisewoman's daughter. And that red silk wasn't salvaged by wisewoman's mother from a shipwreck.

Shiera Seastar in 252AC lured Bloodraven beyond The Wall, brought him to the Children's cave, gave him weirwood seed paste, and binded him to that cave. Parallel to Arthurian legend about Merlin's death and his lover, water-fairy Nimue.

After that Shiera remained beyond The Wall, waiting there for Mance Rayder. She skinchanged into a shadow-cat and attacked Mance. Then she impersonated wisewoman's daughter (even though that wisewoman originally had no children), healed him, and sewed his cloak with a silk from Asshai. Most likely, it is infused with magic. Shiera gave that cloak to Mance, but not for Mance, it's for Jon. Shiera is a dragondreamer, so she knew that years later Mance will meet Jon.

Then she went to Essos, where she was teaching Mirri Maz Duur, maester Marwyn, and Euron Greyjoy. And all of them will play their roles in Shiera's game of thrones.

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I think that Varys' little birds are NOT mute, their tongues weren't cut out.

The only source of information, that all of those children are supposedly tongueless, is this - https://towerofthehand.com/blog/2013/05/27-conquest-44-report-grrm/

"Varys' little birds do have their tongues cut out. They are "provided to him" that way."

<- I think that this information is unreliable.

Because of five reasons:

1. It's not a direct quote from GRRM.

2. AGOT, Eddard's chapter whatever number - "“Leave Lord Varys to me, sweet lady. If you will permit me a small obscenity—and where better for it than here—I hold the man’s balls in the palm of my hand.” He cupped his fingers, smiling. “Or would, if he were a man, or had any balls. You see, if the pie is opened, the birds begin to sing, and Varys would not like that. Were I you, I would worry more about the Lannisters and less about the eunuch.”"

Littlefinger obviously meant Varys' little birds, and how can they "sing" (reveal Varys' secrets to Littlefinger), if they have no tongues?

3. In the GOT-Tv show Varys' little birds weren't mute or tongueless, they talked with Qyburn.

4. There are "mistakes" or intentional/unintentional misleads even in the Citadel, in the So Spake Martin.

For example, information about year of death of Larra Rogare, here -

https://www.westeros.org/BoD/Transcripts/Entry/The_World_of_Ice_and_Fire_AMA

"Following the release of The World of Ice and Fire, we invited players on the game to an “AMA” inspired session of talk about the book. ...

Elmer says, “I had a question. Larra Rogare is mentioned to have left Westeros at some point…do we know when? I assume she’s ot present in our timeline?”

Jyana says, “I’m flipping through, too, but all my questions would be of the, “Can we have someone from Yi Ti show up at some point?” variety, which. Y’know.”

Balerion says, “Not opposed to some plot where a scholar or adventurer of Yi Ti comes along to record the histories of the barbarians out west.”

Balerion says, “Larra’s not around. Let me see…”

You say, “That reminds me, there are a few things we need to get into the family trees now that the book is out, stuff we felt was too spoilery beforehand.”

Balerion says, “Oh, another feast day: Smith’s Day”

Balerion says, “So, yeah, the Seven each have a feast day except maybe the Stranger…”

Jyana says, “Don’t think I’m not tucking that Yi Ti thing away for later.”

Balerion says, “There it is. She goes back to Lys in 139, and passes away in 145.” "

Can someone point for me - where exactly in The World Book is it written that Larra Rogare died in 145? It isn't there. IT ISN'T.

Those people were wrong about Larra, and those other people (from the first link in this post) also could be wrong about little birds.

5. Arya heard only part of that conversation between Varys and Illyrio, so readers could have misinterpreted what was said, while the whole phrase could have been something like this:

"We wouldn't have had this crisis now, if they kept their tongues to themselves, and didn't spilled their beans to Littlefinger."

 

So, there are several options of how did it happened, that this readers' misconception, that all of Varys' little birds are supposedly mute, became a canon - 1. GRRM is unaware of how readers interpreted what was said in AGOT; 2. GRRM is aware that readers misinterpreted what was said in AGOT, but he isn't correcting them, because this way it's more convenient for him. Because, while readers think that all little birds are mute, they won't suspect that amongst grown up characters of ASOIAF, characters who are not mute, there are Big birds, people that used to be Varys' little birds, people such as Shae, Bronn, Brella, even Littlefinger himself.

Readers often make mistakes/misconceptions, and George Martin doesn't correct them, not always. For example, he is aware that nearly all readers think that the Three-Eyed Crow is Brynden Rivers, but he doesn't correct them, because it is his intention to misguide them. Apparently, I'm alone in my knowledge, that the Three-Eyed Crow is Shiera Seastar. Apparently, I will have to wait for TWOW's release to discuss this topic with other readers, when they will finally catch up with me.

Edited by Megorova
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5 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that Varys' little birds are NOT mute, their tongues weren't cut out.

The only source of information, that all of those children are supposedly tongueless, is this - https://towerofthehand.com/blog/2013/05/27-conquest-44-report-grrm/

"Varys' little birds do have their tongues cut out. They are "provided to him" that way."

<- I think that this information is unreliable.

Because of five reasons:

1. It's not a direct quote from GRRM.

2. AGOT, Eddard's chapter whatever number - "“Leave Lord Varys to me, sweet lady. If you will permit me a small obscenity—and where better for it than here—I hold the man’s balls in the palm of my hand.” He cupped his fingers, smiling. “Or would, if he were a man, or had any balls. You see, if the pie is opened, the birds begin to sing, and Varys would not like that. Were I you, I would worry more about the Lannisters and less about the eunuch.”"

Littlefinger obviously meant Varys' little birds, and how can they "sing" (reveal Varys' secrets to Littlefinger), if they have no tongues?

3. In the GOT-Tv show Varys' little birds weren't mute or tongueless, they talked with Qyburn.

4. There are "mistakes" or intentional/unintentional misleads even in the Citadel, in the So Spake Martin.

For example, information about year of death of Larra Rogare, here -

https://www.westeros.org/BoD/Transcripts/Entry/The_World_of_Ice_and_Fire_AMA

"Following the release of The World of Ice and Fire, we invited players on the game to an “AMA” inspired session of talk about the book. ...

Elmer says, “I had a question. Larra Rogare is mentioned to have left Westeros at some point…do we know when? I assume she’s ot present in our timeline?”

Jyana says, “I’m flipping through, too, but all my questions would be of the, “Can we have someone from Yi Ti show up at some point?” variety, which. Y’know.”

Balerion says, “Not opposed to some plot where a scholar or adventurer of Yi Ti comes along to record the histories of the barbarians out west.”

Balerion says, “Larra’s not around. Let me see…”

You say, “That reminds me, there are a few things we need to get into the family trees now that the book is out, stuff we felt was too spoilery beforehand.”

Balerion says, “Oh, another feast day: Smith’s Day”

Balerion says, “So, yeah, the Seven each have a feast day except maybe the Stranger…”

Jyana says, “Don’t think I’m not tucking that Yi Ti thing away for later.”

Balerion says, “There it is. She goes back to Lys in 139, and passes away in 145.” "

Can someone point for me - where exactly in The World Book is it written that Larra Rogare died in 145? It isn't there. IT ISN'T.

Those people were wrong about Larra, and those other people (from the first link in this post) also could be wrong about little birds.

5. Arya heard only part of that conversation between Varys and Illyrio, so readers could have misinterpreted what was said, while the whole phrase could have been something like this:

"We wouldn't have had this crisis now, if they kept their tongues to themselves, and didn't spilled their beans to Littlefinger."

 

So, there are several options of how did it happened, that this readers' misconception, that all of Varys' little birds are supposedly mute, became a canon - 1. GRRM is unaware of how readers interpreted what was said in AGOT; 2. GRRM is aware that readers misinterpreted what was said in AGOT, but he isn't correcting them, because this way it's more convenient for him. Because, while readers think that all little birds are mute, they won't suspect that amongst grown up characters of ASOIAF, characters who are not mute, there are Big birds, people that used to be Varys' little birds, people such as Shae, Bronn, Brella, even Littlefinger himself.

Readers often make mistakes/misconceptions, and George Martin doesn't correct them, not always. For example, he is aware that nearly all readers think that the Three-Eyed Crow is Brynden Rivers, but he doesn't correct them, because it is his intention to misguide them. Apparently, I'm alone in my knowledge, that the Three-Eyed Crow is Shiera Seastar. Apparently, I will have to wait for TWOW's release to discuss this topic with other readers, when they will finally catch up with me.

Tell that to @Ser Leftwich

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  • 1 month later...

There's something really weird going on at Braavos. Some sort of convoluted conspiracy.

I think that Iron Bank and Faceless Men are parts of the same organisation, and that this organisation is ruled by the Sealord of Braavos, who is at the same time is the leader of the Faceless Men. I think that Arya's "kindly man" from the House of Black and White is the current Sealord of Braavos - Ferrego Antaryon.

Also I think that the current Sealord was the one, who gave three dragon eggs to Hop-Bean, Penny and Oppo. It's the same eggs, from which hatched Dany's dragons, also it's the same eggs that Elissa Farman stole from Targaryens, and gave to the Sealord. I think that that Sealord is an ancestor of the current Sealord, and also that amongst ancestors of the current Sealord there was an Otherys - descendant of Bellegere Otherys and Aegon IV Targaryen. So the current Sealord is bloodrelated to Targaryens, and could be that he has a gift of foresight/dragondreams, and that's the reason why he gave his dragon eggs to mummer-dwarfs - because of his ability, he knew that if he will give them to Hop-Bean and his children, then eventually those eggs will get to Dany, and she will be able to hatch dragons.

Furthermore, I think that there's a possibility that Syrio Forel is a Faceless Man, the same Faceless Man as Jaqen H'ghar/Alchemist/fakePate. I think that this Faceless Man, who is also the First Sword of Braavos, was chosen by the current Sealord, Ferrego Antaryon, as his successor and the next Sealord.

I'm aware that the position of a Sealord is not hereditary, that the people of Braavos vote to chose their next ruler, after the previous one dies. Though I don't think that it's as simple as that. I think that out of all states/cities of Essos, Braavos is the most successfull and peaceful (it doesn't participate in constant wars, like Lys, Myr and Tyrosh; it isn't targeted by Dothraki hordes like Pentos, Lhazar and other cities of Essos; it's not devided into opposing factions (tigers and elephants), like Volantis, etc.), because each next Sealord is personally chosen, out of many candidates, by the current Sealord, and then groomed by him for the role of his successor. They work in tandem, like President and Prime Minister. When the "President"/Sealord dies, people vote for a new ruler, though in most cases they chose "Prime Minister" as their next "President". That way Braavos maintains continuity and stability in their governance, and uphold their strong standing on the political map of Essos. 

It is known that the current Sealord is old and ill, so it's likely that he will die soon. Thus, I think, that he sent his chosen heir, Syrio/Jaqen to Westeros, to accomplish some important mission. And if he will succeed, then the people of Braavos will approve him as Ferrego's sucessor, and will vote for him to become the next Sealord. That mission is somehow related to dragons, and maester Marwyn, Shiera Seastar, Ned Stark, Arya, and Jon, and even Greyjoys are also somehow part of that plot. I think that Jaqen intentionally got himself captured and locked in the Black Cells, because thru there he had access to the Hand's Tower (it's above the Black Cells, and from there there's a secret passage into the Tower), and he was searching amongst Ned's documents for some sort of information. And even becoming Arya's teacher was all part of that bigger plan. I think that Euron Greyjoy hired Faceless Man/Jaqen to kill Balon. But he didn't paid with money, instead he gave to Jaqen some sort of important information, and after getting that information Jaqen went to the Citadel.

I think that Euron knew that information because he used to be Shiera Seastar's/Quaithe's/the Three-Eyed Crow's apprentice. She is the Three-Eyed Crow, and Euron's nickname is the Crow's Eye, because his "blood eye", the one he covers, is by blood magic connected to Shiera, and thru that eye she is able to see whatever he sees. Maester Marwyn also used to be Shiera's apprentice, same as Euron, same as Mirri Maz Duur. So that's how Euron got access to some sort of mystery, probably related to the prophecy about the Promised Prince, and the three heads of the dragon.

I think that Johanna Swann, was Larra Rogare's mother, and that she used all the money of Rogare Bank to hire Faceless Men, to kill Lysandro and Drazenko Rogares; Torreo Haen, his wife, his mistress, his daughters, siblings, and supporters at the feast he held to celebrate his elevation to first magister; Silvario Pendaerys and his brother Pereno; Moreo Dagareon, and Matteno Orthys <- seems that they were Johanna's clients, when she was working as a courtesan in the Perfumed Garden, a pillow house owned by Lysandro, so death of all those people was Johanna's revenge. Also I'm sure that Larra Rogare and Serenei of Lys is the same person. So Shiera Seastar is Johanna Swann's granddaughter, and it's likely that the Faceless Men know about this, about Shiera's background, and also about what Shiera is plotting.

It's likely, that the person who was the Sealord of Braavos in times after the Dance of the Dragons, was aware that some Targaryen dragonseeds have an ability to predict future, same as Daenys the Dreamer. So could be that he intentionally introduced Bellegere Otherys to Prince Aegon. It's likely that Bellegere was the Sealord's granddaughter. He had three dragon eggs, that he inherited from the Sealords before him, and he wanted thru Bellegere's and Aegon's children to acquire some Targaryen blood, to attain the gift of foresight, or to hatch dragon eggs, or both. So either the current Sealord is a descendant of Bellegere and Aegon, and he has a gift of foresight, or could be that the one with the gift is the Black Pearl of Braavos, an Otherys girl, and the Sealord is using her knowledge to influence what could or should happen, and Syrio's/Jaqen's mission in Westeros is a part of that bigger plan, created by the Faceless Men and the Sealords since the Dance of the Dragons.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I haven't read the whole thread, but I used word search so I think this hasn't been posted. Apologies if it has: Cersei is the younger more beautiful queen.

(I don't know how to embed :/)

 

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  • 5 months later...
On 7/16/2020 at 2:47 PM, Angel Eyes said:

New one: Daenerys has anorexia; GRRM's known for his detailed descriptions of food, while Daenerys often loses her appetite and only eats a bit of fruit whenever she eats in her chapters.

First post, but, my personal head canon is that she's a fire wight and actually isn't eating at all.

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I have some new information to add to my previous theories posted earlier in this thread (and elsewhere), here

The summary of those posts is this:

  • Johanna Swann, the Black Swan of Lys, was Larra Rogare's mother, and she worked as a courtesan in the Perfumed Garden;
  • Serenei of Lys and Larra Rogare is the same person;
  • Johanna, Larra/Serenei, and Shiera Seastar were cat-skinchangers;
  • both Larra and her daughter Shiera are bloodmages and shadowbinders;
  • Shiera and Quaithe is the same person, also she is the Three-Eyed Crow;
  • fAegon's parents are Barristan Selmy (who is a Blackfyre on his mother's side) and septa Lemore (real name - Jeyne Swann, she is the Perfumed Seneschal, because her ancestor/relative, Johanna Swann, worked in the Perfumed Garden. Also Barristan and Jeyne are parallels to Florian the Fool and Lady Jonquil). Lady Jeyne's septa was Shiera in shadow-glamour, she used love potion on Barristan, after he saved Jeyne from the Kingswood Brotherhood;
  • The fall of House Rogare was orchestrated by Johanna. Those people that died at Lys were Johanna's ex-clients. One of them she killed by skinchanging into a shadow-cat. Also she robbed Rogare Bank and gave those money to the Faceless Men, who then killed Drazenko and Lysandro Rogares.
  • The poisoning incident that occured in the end of the Lyseni Spring was Larra's doing. In F&B, when King Aegon, Viserys and Sandoq the Shadow came out of the Maegor's Holdfast to talk with Marston Waters and Septon Bernard, Aegon wasn't Aegon, it was Larra in shadow-glamour.

I noticed new elements in the books, elements connected to those ideas from above.

Spoiler

So my new addition to all that is that even though originally I thought that Viserys and Larra weren't intending to kill Aegon, they just wanted to punish him by killing his friend, Gaemon, as revenge to him for making Viserys to send his dragon egg to Dragonstone, now I have different ideas concerning those events.

I noticed that they nearly failed, F&B, The Lyseni Spring:

"The confession left King Aegon III bereft of speech. All that the boy could do was stand and stare, with such despair upon his face that Mushroom feared His Grace might be about to leap from the battlements onto the spikes below, to rejoin his first queen.

It fell to Prince Viserys to make answer. “And my wife, Lady Larra,” he shouted down, “was she a part of this plot too, my lord?” Lord Rowan gave a heavy nod. “She was,” he said. “And what of me?” asked the prince. “Aye, you as well,” his lordship answered dully…an answer that seemed to surprise Marston Waters, whilst greatly displeasing Lord George Graceford. “And Gaemon Palehair, ’twas he who put the poison in the tart, I’ll venture,” Viserys went on glibly. “If it please my prince,” mumbled Thaddeus Rowan. Whereupon the prince turned to the king his brother and said, “Gaemon was as guilty as the rest of us…of nothing,” "

Considering what Johanna managed to accomplish at Lys, it seems unlikely that her daughter, Larra, could have fucked up so much with what happened during that poisoning incident at KL. It's unlikely that being under a siege at the Maegor's Holdfast was a part of their (Larra's and Viserys') plan. Also, considering what kind of person Larra was, and what she was capable of, it seems too stupid and childlish, if she and Viserys attempted a poisoning just to give a scare to Aegon, or to take away his boy-toy, Gaemon. Larra is smarter, crueler, and more ambitious than that. Thus their original plan was something else, not what happened. During the execution of the original plan, something went wrong, and they had to hastily alter what they were doing, and those alterations resulted into them being held under a siege.

Previously I thought, that even though the Aegon, who appeared on public with Viserys and Sandoq, was actually Larra in shadow-glamour, I also thought that the real Aegon at that time was alive, and he didn't knew who was the poisoner. Though now I think that for them it was too dangerous to keep Aegon alive, also why would Aegon go along with their plans? thus Aegon was dead.

I think that this is what happened:

The only viable explanation of how the poisoning could have happend, and how Larra replaced Aegon, is that if Gaemon Palehair was an accomplice of Larra and Viserys, and it was he who added poison into Aegon's and Queen Daenaera's food. Then Gaemon pretended that he is sick. I'm not sure what exactly happened next, though I think that at certain moment after that, when Aegon and Gaemon for a moment were left alone in Aegon's chamber, Aegon felt sick and lost consciousness, when the poison started affecting him. Then Larra shadow-glamoured unconsciousness Aegon to look like Palehair, and made Palehair to look like Aegon. Then Aegon died, without regaining consciousness, and because his corpse was under glamour even after his death, everyone believed that it was Palehair who died, and they thought that Aegon was not poisoned, because he didn't ate apple tarts, and the poison was suposedly in that desert (while actually the poison was in several dishes, but there was no remains of that dish that Aegon ate, thus whoever was analising food remains after that incident, didn't noticed that not only apple tarts were poisoned, but some of other food too).

Thus from that moment King Aegon was replaced by Palehair, and this is what GRRM wrote:

"Though the king had spent less time with his cupbearer after his brother’s return to Westeros, Gaemon Palehair’s death nonetheless left Aegon inconsolable. One small good came from it, for it helped to heal the rift between the king and his brother Viserys, who broke his stubborn silence to comfort His Grace in his grief, and sat with him by the queen’s bedside. That proved little enough, however. Thereafter it was Aegon who was silent, for his old gloom had settled over him once again, and he seemed to lose all interest in his court and kingdom."

"There beneath the shadow of the empty Iron Throne (for King Aegon did not choose to come to court), the lords attempted to choose new regents to rule until His Grace could come of age. "

"The selection of the King’s Hand was a matter of more import, and one that the lords assembled were unwilling to leave to the new regents. There were those, chiefly from the Reach, who urged that Unwin Peake be asked to serve as Hand once more, but they were quickly shouted down when Prince Viserys declared that his brother would prefer a younger man, “and one less like to fill his court with traitors.”"

"Ser Raynard Ruskyn became Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, whilst Ser Adrian Thorne was chosen to command the gold cloaks. Formerly the captain on the Lion Gate, Thorne was the only one of Lucas Leygood’s seven captains not accused of involvement in the plot.

And so it was done. All that remained was for Aegon III to put his seal to it, which he did without demur the next morning before retreating once again to the solitary splendor of his chambers."

"The trials lasted three-and-thirty days. Prince Viserys was present throughout, often accompanied by his wife, the Lady Larra, her belly swelling with their second child, and their son Aegon with his wet nurse. King Aegon came but thrice, on the days that judgment was pronounced upon Gareth Long, George Graceford, and Septon Bernard; he showed no interest in the rest, and never asked about their fates."

The less contact Palehair/fAegon had with other people, the easier it was for him to maintain his role as Aegon's double, thus he was staying away from people as much as possible.

(<- I made this assumption based on those quotes above, from F&B book, and also on what Melisandre said to Mance/fRattleshirt about how shadow-glamour works: "“The spell is made of shadow and suggestion. Men see what they expect to see. The bones are part of that.”", and what was happening when Jon was dueling with fRattleshirt. Glamour was dissipating, because what Jon saw, how tall fRattleshirt was, how long were his arms, how far was the reach of his sword, was an illusion that clashed with reality, whenever Jon and fRattleshirt's swords made contact, or whenever the two of them touched.)

 

"After the sentences had been carried out, both of the brothers left King’s Landing. Roggerio closed his brothel"

"King Aegon III did not once appear to sit the Iron Throne during the trials of the brothers, but Prince Viserys came every day to sit beside his wife. What Larra of Lys thought of the Hand’s justice neither Mushroom nor the court chronicles can tell us, save to note that she wept when Lord Torrhen handed down his verdict."

Larra cried because she was happy, relieved. She hated her brothers, she had set them up. Because they were not Johanna Swann's children, like Larra, they were Larra's half-siblings. Furthermore, Roggerio owned a brothel at KL, and Larra's mother in the past was kept as a courtesan in Rogare's brothel in Lys. Everything that happened to House Rogare in the span of the Lyseni Spring's End, was Johanna's and Larra's revenge to Rogares for enslaving Johanna and forcing her to become a whore. 

After the Poisoning Incident sometimes fAegon was Palehair, sometimes it was Larra, and sometimes it was Viserys, they had shifts.

This was Larra shadow-glamoured as Aegon:

"On the morning of the twelfth day of the secret siege, Thaddeus Rowan was brought forth in chains to confess to his offenses. ...

Most terrible of all, his lordship was accused of having plotted with the three Rogares to poison King Aegon and his queen, so as to place Prince Viserys on the Iron Throne with Larra of Lys as his queen. “The poison used is called the Tears of Lys,” Bernard declared, an assertion that Grand Maester Munkun then confirmed. “Though the Seven spared you, sire,” Bernard concluded, “Lord Rowan’s foul plot took the life of your young friend Gaemon.”

When the septon had completed his recitation, Ser Marston Waters said, “Lord Rowan has confessed to all these crimes,” and beckoned to the Lord Confessor, George Graceford, to bring the prisoner forward. Manacled at ankle with heavy chains, his face so bruised and swollen as to be unrecognizable, Lord Thaddeus did not move at first, until Lord Graceford pricked him with the point of his dagger, whereupon he said in a thick voice, “Ser Marston speaks truly, Your Grace. I have confessed to all. Lotho promised me fifty thousand dragons when the deed was done, and another fifty when Viserys took the throne. The poison was given to me by Roggerio.” So halting was this speech, so slurred the words, that some upon the battlements thought his lordship must be drunk, until Mushroom pointed out that all his teeth were missing.

The confession left King Aegon III bereft of speech. All that the boy could do was stand and stare, with such despair upon his face that Mushroom feared His Grace might be about to leap from the battlements onto the spikes below, to rejoin his first queen.

It fell to Prince Viserys to make answer. “And my wife, Lady Larra,” he shouted down, “was she a part of this plot too, my lord?” Lord Rowan gave a heavy nod. “She was,” he said. “And what of me?” asked the prince. “Aye, you as well,” his lordship answered dully…an answer that seemed to surprise Marston Waters, whilst greatly displeasing Lord George Graceford. “And Gaemon Palehair, ’twas he who put the poison in the tart, I’ll venture,” Viserys went on glibly. “If it please my prince,” mumbled Thaddeus Rowan. Whereupon the prince turned to the king his brother and said, “Gaemon was as guilty as the rest of us…of nothing,” and the dwarf Mushroom called down, “Lord Rowan, was it you who poisoned King Viserys?” To which the old Hand nodded, saying, “It was, my lord. I do confess it.”

The king’s face grew hard. “Ser Marston,” he said, “this man is my Hand and innocent of treason. The traitors here are those who tortured him to bring forth this false confession. Seize the Lord Confessor, if you love your king…else I will know that you are as false as he is.” His words rang across the inner ward, and in that moment, the broken boy Aegon III seemed every inch a king."

Look at how peculiarly GRRM phrased this: "the broken boy Aegon III SEEMED every inch a king." He seemed a king, and he seemed to be Aegon, but it was an ILLUSION. It was Larra in shadow-glamour.

That text in bold is all true, except "took the life of your young friend Gaemon", all the rest is true - it was Gaemon who placed the poison into food, and also what Viserys said that Gaemon was as guilty as the rest of them. Viserys admitted that all of them were conspirators, that all of them were guilty.

I think that even though Gaemon was King Aegon's (III's) friend, he had a grudge against him. Because he wasn't an imposter, he really was who he claimed to be - he was King Aegon II's son.

 

Though could be that fAegon who was in that scene with Viserys and Sandoq the Shadow could have been also Gaemon, not Larra. Because when Gaemon was Aegon's cupbearer and whipping boy, he was often beaten by Gareth Long, and "During the secret siege, Aegon angrily refused Ser Gareth Long, as the master-at-arms had often beaten his late friend.[4] " And also later during the trials there was this - "King Aegon came but thrice, on the days that judgment was pronounced upon Gareth Long, George Graceford, and Septon Bernard; he showed no interest in the rest".

Or that fAegon, in the scene with Sandoq, could have been Larra and not Gaemon, based on this:

" “We acted only to protect Your Grace from false friends and traitors. Ser Amaury was sworn to protect you, to give his own life for yours if need be. He was your leal man, as I am. He did not deserve such a death, at the hands of such a beast.”

King Aegon was unmoved. “Sandoq is no beast,” he answered from the battlements. “He cannot speak, but he hears and he obeys."" fAegon defended Sandoq, and Sandoq was Larra's servant. Also this (F&B) -

"All this the court and kingdom might have come to accept in time, had Lady Larra not also insisted upon keeping her own gods. She would have no part in the worship of the Seven, nor the old gods of the northmen. Her worship was reserved for certain of the manifold gods of Lys: the six-breasted cat goddess Pantera, Yndros of the Twilight who was male by day and female by night, the pale child Bakkalon of the Sword, faceless Saagael, the giver of pain.

Her ladies, her servants, and her guards would join Lady Larra at certain times in performing obeisances to these queer, ancient deities. Cats were seen coming and going from her chambers so often that men began to say they were her spies, purring at her in soft voices of all the doings of the Red Keep. It was even said that Larra herself could transform into a cat, to prowl the gutters and rooftops of the city. Darker rumors soon arose. The acolytes of Yndros could supposedly transform themselves from male to female and female to male through the act of love, and whispers went about that her ladyship oft availed herself of this ability at twilight orgies, so she might visit the brothels on the Street of Silk as a man. And every time a child went missing, the ignorant would look at one another and talk of Saagael’s insatiable thirst for blood."

<- All that are clues that Larra was a bloodmage (Serenei of Lys), cat-skinchanger, and a shadowbinder with an ability to make her look like other person, including to look like a man, including to shadow-glamour herself to look like Aegon. Or to shadow-glamour other people. Like Melisandre made Mance to look like Rattleshirt, like Shiera Seastar in The Mystery Knight made Bloodraven to look like Maynard Plumm. Like Larra's daughter, Shiera, made herself to look like Jeyne Swann's septa, or the wildling healer that treated Mance after he was attacked by a shadow-cat, that was skinchanged by Shiera/Quaithe.

The father of Aegon III's children was actually his brother Viserys. Because whenever the King was supposed to have sex with his wife, fAegon/Gaemon was replaced by fAegon/Viserys. Thus Aegon's children - Baelor I, Daeron I, Daena, Rhaena, and Elaena - were actually half-siblings to Viserys' children - Aegon IV, Queen Naerys, and Aemon Dragonknight.

Elaena gave birth to Aegon's child - Viserys Plumm. Daena the Defiant gave birth to Daemon I Blackfyre. Those children were result of incest between half-siblings, not merely cousins.

The summary of my new theory (the one in the spoiler):

Aegon III Targaryen died in 135 AC, childless. For the next 22 years, until his official death, thru the shadow-glamour King fAegon was impersonated (interchangeably) by Gaemon Palehair and Larra Rogare.

 

And one more:

"What is a valonqar? Some monster?"

Could be that valoqar is not a who, it could be a what, a squid. Kraken. Euron.

TWOW: "He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles."

Cersei is a parallel to Biblical Great Harlot, and Euron is the Scarlet Beast. So could be that Cersei will be killed thru Euron, by a giant squid monster.

"And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you." - tears are salty, so could be that Cersei will be drowning in a sea, and she will be grabed and strangeled by a squid. Euron will trow her overboard from his ship, to sacrifice her to his deity.

EURON (while pushing Cersei overboard): I would like you to meet my "little brother".

CERSEI: :ack:

How can a person wrap his hands around someone's throat? Hands are not a scarf or a bandages.

How do we know what the valonqar is? Could be that Cersei's septa either lied to her about the translation, or she herself didn't knew the meaning of that word, and thus she told what Cersei wanted to hear, that valonqar is a High Valyrian for a younger sibling. She knew that Cersei hated Tyrion, so she told her what she thought Cersei will like to hear, that it's her little brother who is big mean Bad of her life. Thus, could be that valoqar is not a "younger sibling".

And thus Tyrion (Jaime, Sandor, Arya, or any other person who is a younger sibling) as the valonqar is just a red herring.

Edited by Megorova
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  • 1 month later...

Daenerys Targaryen, daughter of King Jaehaerys and Alysanne, didn't died from Shivers, she was poisoned. Pureblooded Targaryens are immune to human diseases. And it's not a theory, it's a fact.

Here, the Sealord wasn't joking, Faceless Man killed and replaced the Kingsguard Gyles Morrigen:

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However, there is in this city a certain…guild, let us say…whose members are very skilled at their chosen profession. They could not destroy King’s Landing, nor fill its streets with corpses. But they could kill…a few. A well-chosen few.”

“His Grace is protected day and night by the Kingsguard.”

“Knights, yes. Such as the man who waits for you outside. If indeed he is still waiting. What would you say if I were to tell you that Ser Gyles is already dead?” When Septon Barth began to rise, the Sealord waved him back to his seat. “No, please, no need to rush away. I said what if. I did consider it. They are most skilled, as I said. Had I done so, however, you might have acted unwisely, and many more good people might have died. That is not my desire. Threats make me uncomfortable.

When Septon Barth went back to the 7K from Braavos, Gyles Morrigen that returned with him to Targaryen court was a Faceless Man, who was sent to the KL to watch over Targaryens, in case if they will plan to do something against Braavos or the Sealord. fGyles received a life-long assignment, same as Patchface, who is also a Faceless Man.

Then the Faceless Men were hired (probably by the newly-appointed High Septon) to kill princess Daenerys in such a manner that it would have looked as if though she died from Shivers. The point of this act was to show to Targaryens that they are not above other people, that they are not above Gods, to counter their "Doctrine of Exceptionalism".

Though it would have been suspicious if a Kingsguard was lingering in the kitchens, and thus he had to find a different entry there.

Shortly prior Daenerys' death there was a different incident, at Dragonstone, this:

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And as the year waned, the sickness came to Dragonstone.

It was not the sweating sickness, nor the shaking sickness, nor greyscale, Maester Culiper pronounced. The first sign was a bloody stool, followed by a terrible cramping in the gut. There were a number of diseases that could be the cause, he told the queen. Which of those might be to blame he never determined, for Culiper himself was the first to die, less than two days after he began to feel ill. Maester Anselm, who took his place, thought his age to blame. Culiper had been closer to ninety than to eighty, and not strong.

Cassella Staunton was the next to succumb, however, and she was but four-and-ten. Then Septa Maryam sickened, and Alayne Royce, and even big, boisterous Sam Stokeworth, who liked to boast that she had never been sick a day in her life. All three died the same night, within hours of one another.

Rhaena Targaryen herself remained untouched, though her friends and dear companions were being felled one by one. It was her Valyrian blood that saved her, Maester Anselm suggested; ailments that carried off ordinary men in a matter of hours could not prevail against the blood of the dragon. Males also seemed largely immune to this queer plague. Aside from Maester Culiper, only women were struck down. The men of Dragonstone, be they knights, scullions, stableboys, or singers, remained healthy.

Queen Rhaena ordered the gates of Dragonstone closed and barred. As yet there was no sickness beyond her walls, and she meant for it to stay that way, to protect the smallfolk. When she sent word to King’s Landing, Jaehaerys acted at once, commanding Lord Velaryon to send forth his galleys to make certain no one escaped to spread the pestilence beyond the island. The King’s Hand did as commanded, though not without grief, for his own young niece was amongst the women still on Dragonstone.

Lianna Velaryon died even as her uncle’s galleys were pushing off from Driftmark. Maester Anselm had purged her, bled her, and covered her with ice, all to no avail. She died in Rhaena Targaryen’s arms, convulsing as the queen wept bitter tears.

“You weep for her,” Androw Farman said when he saw the tears on his wife’s face, “but would you weep for me?” His words woke a fury in the queen. Lashing him across the face, Rhaena commanded him to leave her, declaring that she wanted to be alone. “You shall be,” Androw said. “She was the last of them.”

Even then, so lost was the queen in her grief that she did not realize what had happened. It was Rego Draz, the king’s Pentoshi master of coin, who first gave voice to suspicion when Jaehaerys assembled his small council to discuss the deaths on Dragonstone. Reading over Maester Anselm’s accounts, Lord Rego furrowed his brow and said, “Sickness? This is no sickness. A weasel in the guts, dead in a day…this is the tears of Lys.”

“Poison?” King Jaehaerys said in shock.

“We know more of such things in the Free Cities,” Draz assured him. “It is the tears, never doubt it. The old maester would have seen it soon enough, so he had to die first. That is how I would do it. Not that I would. Poison is…dishonorable.”

“Only women were struck down,” objected Lord Velaryon.

“Only women got the poison, then,” said Rego Draz.

The sickness was not a sickness at all, and only Rego Draz realised what was going on. He was poison-specialist, he did said “We know more of such things in the Free Cities”. That's why prior killing Daenerys, Faceless Man first had to remove Rego Draz, to prevent him from revealing to Targaryens that Daenerys' state is not result of a sickness, that the girl is poisoned.

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Amidst the chaos, His Grace would lose another of his lords, not to the Shivers but to ignorance and hate. Rego Draz had never taken up residence in the Red Keep, though there was ample room for him there, and the king had made the offer many times. The Pentoshi preferred his own manse on the Street of Silk, with the Dragonpit looming above him atop the Hill of Rhaenys. There he could entertain his concubines without suffering the disapproval of the court. After ten years in service to the Iron Throne, Lord Rego had grown quite stout, and no longer chose to ride. Instead he moved from manse to castle and back again in an ornate gilded palanquin. Unwisely, his route took him through the reeking heart of Flea Bottom, the foulest and most lawless district of the city.

On that dire day, a dozen of Flea Bottom’s less savory denizens were chasing a piglet down an alley when they chanced to come upon Lord Rego moving through the streets. Some were drunk and all were hungry—the piglet had escaped them—and the sight of the Pentoshi enraged them, for to a man they held the master of coin to blame for the high cost of bread. One wore a sword. Three had knives. The rest snatched up stones and sticks and swarmed the palanquin, driving off Lord Rego’s bearers and spilling his lordship onto the ground. Onlookers said he screamed for help in words none of them could understand.

When his lordship raised his hands to ward off the blows raining down on him, gold and gemstones glittered on every finger, and the attack grew more frenzied still. A woman shouted, “He’s Pentoshi. Them’s the bastards brung the Shivers here.” One of the men pried a stone up from the king’s newly cobbled street and brought it down upon Lord Rego’s head again and again, until only a red mash of blood and bone and brains remained. Thus died the Lord of Air, his skull crushed by one of the very cobblestones he had helped the king lay down. Even then, his assailants were not done with him. Before they ran, they ripped off his fine clothes and cut off all his fingers to lay claim to his rings.

When word reached the Red Keep, Jaehaerys Targaryen himself rode forth to claim the body, surrounded by his Kingsguard. So wroth was His Grace at what he saw that Ser Joffrey Doggett would say afterward, “When I looked upon his face, for a moment it was as if I were looking at his uncle.” The street was full of the curious, come out to see their king or gaze upon the bloody corpse of the Pentoshi moneychanger. Jaehaerys wheeled his horse about and shouted at them. “I would have the name of the men who did this. Speak now, and you will be well rewarded. Hold your tongues, and you will lose them.” Many of the watchers slunk away, but one barefoot girl came forward, squeaking out a name.

The king thanked her, and commanded her to show his knights where this man might be found. She led the Kingsguard to a wine sink where the villain was discovered with a whore in his lap and three of Lord Rego’s rings on his fingers. Under torture, he soon gave up the names of the other attackers, and they were taken one and all. One of their number claimed to have been a Poor Fellow, and cried out that he wished to take the black. “No,” Jaehaerys told him. “The Night’s Watch are men of honor, and you are lower than rats.” Such men as these were unworthy of a clean death by sword or axe, he ruled. Instead they were hung from the walls of the Red Keep, disemboweled, and left to twist until they died, their entrails swinging loose down to their knees.

The girl who had led the king to the killers had a kinder fate. Taken in hand by Queen Alysanne, she was plunged into a tub of hot water for a scrubbing. Her clothes were burned, her head was shaved, and she was fed hot bread and bacon. “There is a place for you in the castle, if you want it,” Alysanne told her when her belly was full. “In the kitchens or the stables, as you wish. Do you have a father?” The girl gave a shy nod and admitted that she did. “He was one o’ them bellies you cut open. The poxy one, wi’ the stye.” Then she told Her Grace that she wanted to work in the kitchens. “That’s where they keeps the bread.”

As a Kingsguard he knew what path Rego is using to get from his house to the Red Keep. So he orchestrated events in such a manner that on Rego's path appeared a raging mob. The woman that caused the mob to kill Rego, was a Faceless Man. Then she/he/it put on a face of a little girl, and brought the King's knights to one of those people who killed and robbed Rego. Those guys that attacked Rego, didn't had children, the girl lied that one of them was her father. As result of her acting she got a place in the kitchens, from where she had access to all the food that was served to Targaryens, and she poisoned Daenerys' food, the last meal on the New Year's Eve. The meal was modest, and the girl said “That’s where they keeps the bread.”, so it's likely that she poisoned the bread, an individual bread roll or a bun that was then served by her to Daenerys. Or the bread was given to Daenerys by a Kingsguard Gyles Morrigen. Probably he was there with the King's family, and when he passed the bread to little Daenerys, he gave her a specific roll/bun/piece just for her (with poison in it).

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The old year ended and a new year began, but there were few celebrations anywhere in Westeros to mark the coming of the 60th year since Aegon’s Conquest. A year before great bonfires had been lit in public squares and men and women had danced around them, drinking and laughing, whilst bells rang in the new year. One year later the fires were consuming corpses, and the bells were tolling out the dead. The streets of King’s Landing were empty, especially by night, the alleyways were deep in snow, and icicles hung down from the rooftops, long as spears.

Atop Aegon’s High Hill, King Jaehaerys ordered the gates of the Red Keep closed and barred, and doubled the watch on the castle walls. He and his queen and their children attended sunset services at the castle sept, repaired to Maegor’s Holdfast for a modest meal, and then retired to bed.

It was the hour of the owl when Queen Alysanne was awoken by her daughter shaking her gently by the arm. “Mother,” Princess Daenerys said, “I’m cold.”

There is no need to dwell on all that followed. Daenerys Targaryen was the darling of the realm, and all that could be done for any man was done for her.

The client who ordered the poisoning, has chosen Daenerys as the target, because she was everyone's favourite, and her death would have hit her parents the most.

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A day and a half after she had woken her mother from sleep complaining of feeling cold, the little princess was dead. The queen collapsed in the king’s arms, shaking so violently that some feared she had the Shivers too. Jaehaerys had her taken back to her own chambers and given milk of the poppy to help her sleep. Though near exhaustion, he went next to the yard and loosed Vermithor, then flew to Dragonstone to tell them there was no need for the hatchling after all. On his return to King’s Landing, he drank a cup of dreamwine and sent for Septon Barth. “How could this happen?” he demanded. “What sin did she commit? Why would the gods take her? How could this happen? But even Barth, that wise man, had no answers for him.

The king and queen were not the only parents to lose a child to the Shivers; thousands of others, highborn and low, knew the same pain that winter. For Jaehaerys and Alysanne, however, the death of their beloved daughter must have seemed especially cruel, for it struck at the very heart of the Doctrine of Exceptionalism. Princess Daenerys had been Targaryen on both sides, with the blood of Old Valyria running pure through her veins, and those of Valyrian descent were not like other men. Targaryens had purple eyes and hair of gold and silver, they ruled the sky on dragons, the doctrines of the Faith and the prohibitions against incest did not apply to them…and they did not get sick.

Since Aenar the Exile first staked his claim to Dragonstone, that had been known. Targaryens did not die of pox or the bloody flux, they were not afflicted with redspots or brownleg or the shaking sickness, they would not succumb to wormbone or clotted lung or sourgut or any of the myriad pestilences and contagions that the gods, for reasons of their own, see fit to loose on mortal men and women. There was fire in the blood of the dragon, it was reasoned, a purifying fire that burned out all such plagues. It was unthinkable that a pureborn princess should die shivering, as if she were some common child.

And yet she had.

Even as they mourned for her and the sweet soul she had been, Jaehaerys and Alysanne must also have been confronting that awful realization. Mayhaps the Targaryens were not so close to gods as they had believed. Mayhaps, in the end, they too were only men.

Daenerys' unexplainable death humbled Targaryens. That was the point. To make it look like a punishment from Gods. If a pureblooded Targaryen died from Shivers like a mere commoner, even though Targaryens are immune to human diseases, then her death was caused by Gods. And there was no Rego Draz there to tell them otherwise, like he did the previous time - “Sickness? This is no sickness.”

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@Megorova considering King Jaehaerys' relation to Braavos at that time, this does actually feel like a possibility.

I recently read in a thread an idea that originally incest doesn't affect valyrians, but once they are not practicing it and then later do, there will be a higher chance for such a thing. We've seen some Targaryens dying because of some kind of illness, but really the only fully "pure-blooded" one was Princess Daenerys.

And it's surprising how you connected Rego Draz's death with a possible murder on her due to poison, but I think you're wrong at some points too:

1) Taking someone's face is a long procedure, and there was no mention by the dude of replacing Ser Gyles with a faceless men, just killing him. 

2)FM only kill people who they are paid for, and I doubt anyone paid for the death of Ser Gyles and those hungry men of KL who killed Rego Draz. If the hungry girl was really a FM, he wouldn't have told the guards who the murderers were, unless someone paid for the death of each.

3)What I see as a possibility is that the FM played a part in Rego Draz's and Daenerys' death, but nothing else.

4) There are easier ways to get into the Red Keep's kitchen and have acces to the royal family. At least for a FM.

Otherwise, nice theory.

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23 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

1) Taking someone's face is a long procedure, and there was no mention by the dude of replacing Ser Gyles with a faceless men, just killing him. 

Same as septon Barth, you misunderstood the meaning of what the Sealord said, this was not a threat, not - while you were here talking with me, my people killed your knight.

"Knights, yes. Such as the man who waits for you outside. If indeed he is still waiting. What would you say if I were to tell you that Ser Gyles is already dead?”

instead it was - the knight with whom you came here is not who you think he is, the real Ser Gyles is already dead, and the man who waits for you outside is one of my people, one of the Faceless Men.

Barth and his escort arrived to Braavos, and went to spend a night at a local hotel (or something like that, because they wouldn't have went to their audience with the Sealord while still tired and dirty from their voyage). On that night Gyles was killed by the Faceless Men who then took his face. Next morning, when Barth went to meet with the Sealord, Ser Gyles that escorted him, was actually a Faceless Man.

23 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

2)FM only kill people who they are paid for, and I doubt anyone paid for the death of Ser Gyles and those hungry men of KL who killed Rego Draz. If the hungry girl was really a FM, he wouldn't have told the guards who the murderers were, unless someone paid for the death of each.

Faceless Men kill those people for whose death they were paid. Though the girl herself didn't killed anyone.

23 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

4) There are easier ways to get into the Red Keep's kitchen and have acces to the royal family. At least for a FM.

That's incorrect. The Barefoot Girl was the best option.

fGyles couldn't have risked his own position at Targaryen court. He was supposed to watch Targaryens, and not to make any deviations to his role as Gyles. He was guarding(spying) the King, that was his sole mission. Probably some other Faceless Man was hired by the newly appointed High Septon to kill Daenerys, and even if fGyles did provided some support to his colleague, that support was limited to the sharing of information, not active participation in that other assassin's assignment.

Also, if FM needed unlimited access to the kitchens, then it was easier for them to infiltrate the castle while using a new face, than to kill someone who already served in the kitchens to then use his/her face on this assignment.

Example 1: a Faceless Man kills one of the kitchen's stuff and takes his/her place. For sucessfull impersonation of this person, FM has to be able to cook as good as that person, or to know well everything that this person is supposed to do in the kitchens, and to do all that. Because the kitchen's stuff was taken there to work, not to dawdle or do unnecessary things. If this person will suddenly begin acting strange, and then, after Daenerys' death supposedly from a sickness, this employee will disappear, then the other people at the castle will eventually connect his disappearance, his suspicious behaviour prior that disappearance, and will eventually connect him to Daenerys' death.

And that would have ruined the original plan, the point of which was to make Daenerys' death to look like a will of Gods, not like a poisoning or something suspicious.

Gyles was killed on the Braavosi territory, in the hotel owned by the Sealord, where everyone were Sealord's men/Faceless Men and their helpers (Iron Bank and the Faceless Men are two sides of the same coin, and both of those organizations are ruled by the Sealord. Aria's Kindly Man is the current Sealord, Ferrego Antaryon). The hotel's stuff made sure that while Gyles was killed and skinned, his companions from Westeros were kept away. They could have snatched him from his room and killed him elsewhere, in any other room of that hotel. And afterwards there was no problems in getting rid of the body.

Back to Westeros - there are always people everywhere in the castle. And the servants' quarters and serving passages are more populated than the places where the masters reside. They sleep many people in the same room, they work all together and know each other fairly close. Would be nearly impossible to snatch someone from the serving areas and to find a quiet place to skin-off his/her face and then to dispose of the body. As you noted yourself, taking faces is a long procedure, and a messy one.

Also, for this option an innocent person will have to die - the servant from the kitchens. And the Faceless Men don't do unnecessary things like that. They weren't paid for this additional death, thus they won't kill anyone besides Daenerys. And there will be no need in that, because in case if a Faceless Man will come into the castle under identity of someone new, then he/she can just use a face of a girl that died at Braavos for whatever cause long ago, and whose face-mask is already a part of FM's wardrobe.

Example 2: the Barefoot Girl provides aid to the King's knight to identify people that killed Rego Draz, for her help she gets a place at the kitchens. No one expects from her to be a master-chef or to know how their kitchens work. She has unrestricted access to all the food and cooking processes, and nobody paid any attention to her presence there.

Some time after Daenerys' death, the girl just up and left. Maybe even said that she was contacted by a relative who wants to take her into his/her household, so she's leaving. And no one will think absolutely nothing about her departure, and won't connect her with Daenerys' death.

Thus, Example 2 is an obvious choice.

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If Gyles Morrigen really was a Faceless Man (and I'm sure in this, nearly 100%) then what happened to Saera Targaryen could be seen in a new light.

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When the Shivers finally ran its course, King Jaehaerys went back to his labors with a sadder heart. His first task was a grim one: replacing all the friends and councillors he had lost. Lord Manfryd Redwyne’s eldest son, Ser Robert, was named to command the City Watch. Ser Gyles Morrigen brought forth two good knights to join the Kingsguard, and His Grace duly presented Ser Ryam Redwyne and Ser Robin Shaw with white cloaks.

Could be that Ryam Redwyne, Robin Shaw, and Robert Redwyne (new commander of the City Watch) also were Faceless Men.

For some reason several years later they got rid of Lucamore Strong, probably he was getting into their way.

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His brothers of the Kingsguard were even angrier. It was Ser Ryam Redwyne who discovered Ser Lucamore’s transgressions and brought them to the attention of the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, who in turn brought them to the king. Speaking for his Sworn Brothers, Ser Gyles Morrigen declared that Strong had dishonored all they stood for, and requested that he be put to death.

From then on out of 7 Kingsguards 4 were Faceless Men (Morrigen, Redwyne, Shaw, and whoever replaced Lucamore, maybe Clement Crabb).

Blue Pearl / parallel to the Black Pearls of Braavos.

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One of Saera’s japes was their undoing. On a warm spring night in 84 AC, shouts and screams from a brothel called the Blue Pearl drew the notice of two men of the City Watch. The screams were coming from Tom Turnip, who was lurching helplessly in circles trying to escape from half a dozen naked whores, whilst the patrons of the house laughed uproariously and shouted on the harlots. Jonah Mooton, Red Roy Connington, and Stinger Beesbury were amongst those patrons, each one drunker than the last. They had thought it would be funny to see old Turnip do the deed, Red Roy admitted. Then Jonah Mooton laughed and said the jape had all been Saera’s notion, and what a funny girl she was.

The watchmen rescued the hapless fool and escorted him back to the Red Keep. The three lords they brought before Ser Robert Redwyne, their commander. Ser Robert delivered them to the king, ignoring Stinger’s threats and Connington’s clumsy attempt to bribe him.

It seems to me that Saera was set up by the Faceless Men.

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The princess surely knew that something was amiss when the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and the Commander of the City Watch appeared together to escort her to the throne room.

The Sealord of Braavos from his people that were Kingsguards found out that to hatch a dragon egg what is necessary is a baby with dragon-blood. Saera went to Essos and gave birth to three bastards. Three eggs, three dragonseed-children.

Though, when the eggs still didn't hatched, that Sealord's grandson, who was also a Sealord and a grandfather of Bellegere Otherys (the First Black Pearl of Braavos), introduced his granddaughter to Aegon, when Aegon came to Braavos as an envoy. Him and Bellegere were in a relationship for 10 years, and she gave birth to three of his children. Three dragonseeds again. That's because the Sealord (a different Sealord) still had those three eggs that Braavosi got from Elissa Farman.

And then the latest Sealord (the one who loves cats, who gave the title the First Sword of Braavos to Syrio Forel (who is also a Faceless Man - Jaqen/Alchemist/fPate)) gave those three dragon eggs to mummer-dwarfs - Hop-Bean, Penny and Oppo, who then gave them to Illyrio, who then gave them as a wedding gift to Daenerys.

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In 99 AC, Ryam, the Lord Commander, was named Hand of the King by Jaehaerys, after the death of the previous Hand, Septon Barth. Considered one of the worst Hands the Seven Kingdoms has seen,[6]

It seems that Ryam on purpose gave bad advices and made bad decisions.

Maybe this three deaths also were orchestrated by the Faceless Men;

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It was the hour of the wolf, the darkest time of the night, when it fell to Ser Ryam Redwyne of the Kingsguard to rouse the king and queen from their sleep to tell them that their daughter had been found dead in an alley at the foot of Aegon’s High Hill.

Despite their differences, the loss of Princess Viserra was devastating to the queen. In the space of five years, the gods had taken three of her daughters: Daella in 82 AC, Alyssa in 84 AC, Viserra in 87 AC.

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In 83 AC, Alyssa was announced to be pregnant again. She gave birth the next year, to another son, Aegon. The labor was long and difficult and Alyssa never fully recovered from the childbirth. She died within a year, at the age of twenty-four. Aegon died half a year later, not yet even a year old. Alyssa's death shattered Baelon.[1]

If after her child's birth Alyssa was feeling not well, no one would have suspected that she is slowly poisoned. Aegon also was killed by the Faceless Men. Same thing with Daella, if after her child's birth she had a fever, no one would have suspected that this fever is caused by poison and not by childbirth.

FM were artificially diminishing quantity of active dragonriders in Targaryen family.

They poisoned, or killed by other means, this Targaryens - little Daenerys, Daella, Alyssa, little Aegon, Baelon (it's kind of suspicious that he died less than a year after becoming the King's Hand, after replacing the previous Hand - Ryam Redwyne, who was a Faceless Man), Aemon (who was supposedly killed by one of the Myrish exiles, who actually was a Faceless Man), Viserra (accidents could be faked or caused), Maegelle (she died from greyscale, though she was a hindrance for the Faceless Men, because whenever Jaehaerys and Alysanne had a quarrel, which prevented them from having more children, they were reconciled by Maegelle, thus FM had to get rid of her).

Vaegon became a maester, so he was not a threat, because he was not a dragonrider. Saera was effectively removed from Targaryen family and then used as a breeder of children with dragonblood that were required by the Sealord to hatch owned by him three dragon eggs.

Gaemon died when he was a bit less than three months old, and Valerion died a fortnight before his first nameday. Both could have been poisoned. Four of the Kingsguards were Faceless Men and they had unrestricted access to all Targaryens, it would have been awfully easy for them to do the poisoning. If a little child died in a cradle, no one will suspect that he/she was poisoned, instead of dying from natural causes.

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After her sisters Alyssa, Daella and Viserra had died within the span of five years, Gael, together with her older sister Maegelle, became a comfort for her mother, Queen Alysanne. Gael became Alysanne’s constant shadow, and even slept with her in her bed.[2]

It was hard to get to Gael, she was always with her mother, and thus while she was still a child, FM were unable to kill her. Though, when she became older, they used different means to get her. Could be that the traveling singer who seduced her, actually was one of the Faceless Men.

It looks like out of Jaehaerys' and Alysanne's 13 children only their firstborn, Aegon, died from natural causes, 10 others were killed by the Faceless Men, Vaegon was spared because as a maester he didn't became a dragonrider, and Saera was used by FM as a breeder.

My musings seems farfetched, though just think about it - if there are only several active (or potential) dragonriders amongst Targaryens, then they are not a threat to Braavos or anyone else. Also it seems likely that the events that led to the Dance of the Dragons also were orchestrated by the Faceless Men. That way they effectively got rid of all dragons (except those three eggs that were owned by the Sealord, thus if he (or his successor) managed to hatch them, then only Braavos would have had dragons).

I haven't read the part of Fire&Blood between Jaehaerys' reign and the Lyseni Spring, though I think that somewhere there there should be clues that reveal the presense of the Faceless Men at Targaryen court in that period.

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Baelor Breakspear was killed by a Faceless Man. I'm serious, it's not a fanfiction, crackpot or tinfoil. Baelor really was killed by a Faceless Man, not by prince Maekar. It was one of the Kingsguards. Really.

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Prince Maekar turned to face him. “Some men will say I meant to kill my brother. The gods know it is a lie, but I will hear the whispers till the day I die. And it was my mace that dealt the fatal blow, I have no doubt. The only other foes he faced in the melee were three Kingsguard, whose vows forbade them to do any more than defend themselves. So it was me. Strange to say, I do not recall the blow that broke his skull. Is that a mercy or a curse? Some of both, I think.”

He doesn't remember striking Baelor because that didn't happened, it wasn't one of Maekar's hits that killed Baelor, it was done by one of the Kingsguards, who was a Faceless Man.

Actually, out of the three Kingsguards present in The Hedge Knight novel, two were Faceless Men - Roland Crakehall and Donnel of Duskendale.

Those two were plotting something when Dunk approached them.

"By the time Dunk left the stable, Lord Ashford had escorted his princely guests into the hail, but two of the Kingsguard knights in their white armor and snowy cloaks still lingered in the yard, talking with the captain of the guard."

They kept the third Kingsguard out of the loop, and later he was the only one who got seriously wounded during the Trial of Seven.

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He saw Prince Baelor gallop past, lance still intact, and drive one of the Kingsguard from his saddle. Another of the white knights was already down, and Maekar had been unhorsed as well. The third of the Kingsguard was fending off Ser Robyn Rhysling.

...

He glimpsed Prince Maekar, mace in hand, trying to fight his way to his son’s side. Baelor Breakspear was holding him off.

...

One of the Kingsguard knights was carrying a wounded brother from the field. They both looked alike in their white armor and white cloaks. The third of the white knights was down, and the Laughing Storm had joined Prince Baelor against Prince Maekar. Mace, battle-axe, and longsword clashed and clanged, ringing against helm and shield. Maekar was taking three blows for every one he landed, and Dunk could see that it would be over soon.

...

Ser Willem Wylde of the Kingsguard was carried from the field insensate

The Kingsguard who was taken out of action in the beginning of the fight was Willem Wylde, the only Kingsguard who was not a Faceless Men, and then one of the other two attacked Baelor. I think that Robyn Rhysling was fighting against Donnel of Duskendale (because their names have double letters in them - RR vs DD), thus Baelor was killed by the Faceless Man who was using Roland Crakehall's identity. Also his name is kind of hinting - Crakehall and Baelor skull cracked.

This - He saw Prince Baelor gallop past, lance still intact, and drive one of the Kingsguard from his saddle. <- Crakehall. Wylde -> Another of the white knights was already down, and Maekar had been unhorsed as well. The third of the Kingsguard was fending off Ser Robyn Rhysling. <- Donnel of Duskendale.

"One of the Kingsguard knights was carrying a wounded brother from the field. They both looked alike in their white armor and white cloaks. The third of the white knights was down" <- Wylde was unconsciousness, and the other two pretended that one of them is wounded, Crakehall, who earlier was driven from his saddle by Baelor. Dunk saw Donnel taking Crakehall off the field, and Baelor with the Laughing Storm were fighting against Maekar. Then Baelor got pressed out of that fight by Baratheon, who continued to beat Maekar solo. In a span of time when Dunk didn't saw Baelor, when the audience's attention was held by what Dunk was doing to Aerion and when later people gathered around wounded Dunk and no one was looking at Baelor, Crakehall, unnoticed by anyone, came back and hit Baelor on the head.

If Baelor's skull was damaged while he was fighting against Maekar alongside with Baratheon, then he would have fallen still there during that fight. Instead he was hit later, mere moments prior he approached Dunk and this happened -

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“Get him drunk and pour some boiling oil into it,” someone suggested. “That’s how the maesters do it.”

“Wine.” The voice had a hollow metallic ring to it. “Not oil, that will kill him, boiling wine. I’ll send Maester Yormwell to have a look at him when he’s done tending my brother.”

A tall knight stood above him, in black armor dinted and scarred by many blows. Prince Baelor. The scarlet dragon on his helm had lost a head, both wings, and most of its tail. “Your Grace,” Dunk said, “I am your man. Please. Your man.”

“My man.” The black knight put a hand on Raymun’s shoulder to steady himself. “I need good men, Ser Duncan. The realm…” His voice sounded oddly slurred. Perhaps he’d bit his tongue. Dunk was very tired. It was hard to stay awake. “Your man,” he murmured once more. The prince moved his head slowly from side to side. “Ser Raymun… my helm, if you’d be so kind. Visor… visor’s cracked, and my fingers… fingers feel like wood.”

“At once, Your Grace.” Raymun took the prince’s helm in both hands and grunted. “Goodman Pate, a hand.”

Steely Pate dragged over a mounting stool. “It’s crushed down at the back, Your Grace, toward the left side. Smashed into the gorget. Good steel, this, to stop such a blow.”

“Brother’s mace, most like,” Baelor said thickly. “He’s strong.” He winced. “That… feels queer, I…”

“Here it comes.” Pate lifted the battered helm away. “Gods be good. Oh gods oh gods oh gods preserve…”

Dunk saw something red and wet fall out of the helm. Someone was screaming, high and terrible. Against the bleak grey sky swayed a tall tall prince in black armor with only half a skull. He could see red blood and pale bone beneath and something else, something blue-grey and pulpy. A queer troubled look passed across Baelor Breakspear’s face, like a cloud passing before a sun. He raised his hand and touched the back of his head with two fingers, oh so lightly. And then he fell. Dunk caught him. “Up,” they say he said, just as he had with Thunder in the melee, “up, up.” But he never remembered that afterward, and the prince did not rise.

When Maekar's fight with Baratheon ended, Baelor was with Maekar and maester Yormwell, who treated Maekar's wounds. If Baelor had brain injury then, then the maester would have noticed it, his slurred speech, uncoordinated movements, etc. Also Baelor was there with the maester and his brother for several minutes and he was OK then. After he made sure that Maekar also was OK, he went to check on Dunk, and that's when he was hit, on his way to where Dunk was.

Even if Baelor didn't died immediately after the attack, and would have said that Crakehall hit him, no one would have taken that seriously, because Crakehall had an alibi - earlier people saw him being carried off the field by Donnel.

Also, after the hit Baelor's brain was damaged and thus he was confused and didn't even comprehended what happened. That it wasn't one of Maekar's hits that damaged his head, that instead someone had hit him already after that fight ended. Someone approached him and hit him out of the blue. And that someone was Crakehall, who wasn't even supposed to be on the field, because earlier he was carried off it.

Prior Baelor was hit, he was going to Dunk, and when he got hit and his brain got damaged, he kept doing what he was doing prior the attack. He was sort of on auto-pilot. This sort of thing sometimes happen to people with brain injury. There were cases when people were shot in the head, or stabbed with a knife, or by accident shot themselves in the head with a nail gun, and they kept going doing whatever they were doing, without realising that they were wounded.

Both Baelor and Maekar mistakenly thought that it was one of Maekar's hits that damaged Baelor's head. Though, if that was the case, then with the kind of trauma that Baelor sustained, he would have fallen and died while Dunk was still dealing with Aerion, not so much time later. And thus the hit had occured later. And it wasn't caused by Maekar.

Thus, Baelor Breakspear was killed by a Faceless Man.

~~~

It seems that Faceless Men remained in Targaryen court since Jaehaerys' reign, or maybe they were there even before that. Could be that Maegor the Cruel also was killed by a Faceless Man.

Other Targaryens that were possibly killed by FM - 10 children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, Aegon II, Jaehaera (first wife of Aegon III, supposedly commited suicide), Helaena (Jaehaera's mother, who also supposedly commited suicide. Though in the book there were hints about both the mother and the daughter that their death was not a result of suicide), ... in the period of time between Aegon III's reign and Aegon IV's reign the court was under control of the witches (shadowbinders, Johanna Swann, Larra/Serenei), thus the Faceless Men would have been detected by them, and thus Braavos' influence was kept out of the 7K from 131 and until 184 AC or maybe even until 200+. In 209 AC at least two of the Kingsguards were Faceless Men, and maybe there were others besides them, not necessary Kingsguards.

After 209 AC FM possibly killed this people - Baelor Breakspear, Daeron the Drunken (he was a threat for Braavosi because he had prophetic dreams. As I already wrote in one of my previous posts here - accidents could be faked or caused. Modern-day assassins frequently use car crashes to kill their targets. Princess Diana, for example. The horse accidents also could be caused. For example, (I either saw it in a TV-series or have read it in a book) if something like pepper powder will be applied on the bottom side of a saddle, then when the horse will become sweaty after certain amount of riding, the powder will become wet and will begin burning the horse's skin under the saddle, which will cause the horse to become mad with pain and running wildly, trying to get away from it, in this case it's nearly impossible for the rider not to fall off, or the horse will run into a wall/other obstacle or will run off a clif), Aerion Brightflame, Aerys I, Rhaegel (that lamprey pie could have been poisoned), Aelor, Aelora, Maekar I, maybe the Summerhall's burning is also FM's doing, Steffon Baratheon and his people were killed by Patchface who is a Faceless Man.

Also the Sealords of Braavos made three attempts to hatch those three dragon eggs that were delivered to Braavos by Elissa Farman.

Three bastards of Saera Targaryen, three bastards of Aegon IV and Bellegere Otherys (the Sealord's granddaughter), three bastards of Aerion Brightflame (that he fathered during his exile to Lys).

Edited by Megorova
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On 2/11/2021 at 5:23 PM, Megorova said:
  • Serenei of Lys and Larra Rogare is the same person;

Really??????????? You think Larra came back to Westeros decades later, in disguise, and became her own son's mistress, even going so far as to have his child. And all this based on no evidence. I know this is ASOIAF but really??????????

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