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US Politics: Confederacy vs Nazis vs USSR


lokisnow

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Oh certainly. I'd also suspect that many of those commonly-attributable communist deaths include people who died while incarcerated. Do we then regard anyone who dies in prison in the West to be a victim of capitalism? Do we limit ourselves to political prisoners? OK, are terrorists such as the IRA political prisoners?



It gets very complicated very quickly. That's the morbidly convenient thing about the Holocaust - it is such a nice clear example of state-organised murder, complete with actual numbers attached.

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motor vehicle deaths are of course chargeable to capitalism under the grim calculus methodology, as socialism forefronts public transit, and designs cities with pedestrians and cyclists in mind otherwise. but for the intentional destruction of public transit by the automobile interests, there'd've been less accident mortality, &c&c&c.


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it's routine to attribute famine deaths to 'communism,' such as in the ukraine in the 1930s or china in the GLF years, because those deaths appear fairly readily attributable to intentional policy decisions by persons who were communists of some sort and therefore the deaths are because of communism. (must leave aside the debate as to whether there was specific intent to kill the victims of the famines by the policymakers--the case against stalin is stronger than against mao, I think--though neither the rightwing nor the leftwing benefits much from the imputation of murderous intent to the leadership, given their ultimate rhetorical goals in this colloquy).

what is not routine, at least among those who wish to highlight this types of grim calculus, is the attribution of famine--and much more pedestrian starvation--deaths to 'capitalism' because of policy decisions by persons designated as political (as opposed to economic) capitalists. there, we get the ideology of personal responsibility to sweep up the deaths--it was your own fault for dying, after all, dirty poor person.

That's a fair criticism and interesting question. The issue is that mass famines were very common throughout history but in recent history only really occur due to government dysfunction. Defining Capitalism is difficult since like Communism, it has never been implemented in a way that the academics would consider pure. Unlike Communism, capitalism was rarely put into place through revolution, but rather evolved organically. Adam Smith, after all, did not invent the concept of exchanging goods and services in 1776. In fact, Marx did not invent the concept of providing protection for workers and tradesmen or economic equality in 1867.

"Capitalist famines", I believe your referring to the Irish Great Famine and some in the British Raj, tend to occur much earlier than "Communist Famines," when food production was much less advanced and international trade was less robust and in areas that were not allowed to be fully integrated into the market economy.

I'm not very well read on the Holodomor or the details of Stalin's economic policy, but regarding Mao and the Great Leap Forward, I believe I can speak with a modicum of authority. The failures of the Great Leap forward were caused by a combination of following Communist ideology (collectivized farmland) and all the issues with placing all decisions in the hands of very few, out of touch people. The second is not necessarily a consequence of communist ideology, but does seem to occur whenever it's implemented through revolution.

Capitalism's decentralization of economic decision making allows the economic system to be a bit more robust in the face of idiocy (though not completely as the periodic crashes before central banks took over show), but does make it weak when collective action might be called for, like asteroid defense systems or Global Warming.

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The issue is that mass famines were very common throughout history but in recent history only really occur due to government dysfunction.

Not restricted to communists though: The WWII Bengal Famine is in the same ballpark (if not quite the same numbers) as the Ukrainian famine, for instance.

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The thing about Ireland's Great Famine is that anyone with half a brain already knew how to prevent widespread death - get the Government to buy up food, and distribute it to the people. Previous and later Irish famines were dealt with by this means.



The UK Government of the 1840s, however, thought that this was unconscionable intrusion of the state into the workings of the market. Free up trade, get the Irish to work, and they could buy their own food, the free-market way. That way they wouldn't become dependent on the Government. Except that you can't work if you're starving to death, and if you don't have any money, free-trade doesn't help. In fact, Ireland exported food throughout the famine - market forces and all.



It was essentially a morbid experiment in free-market fundamentalism.


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I assume you mentioned that in order to excuse Communism for all the shit that's happened in those two countries.

No, not at all. I posed the question because it's been an undercurrent in recent discussions and because Piketty brings it up. Frankly my understanding of Russia and China is limited to the "so bad" examples you listed off in your post, examples I learned over and over again in my USA public education. Naturally, I'm a little suspicious of such Cherry Tree type of knowledge and wanted to cast a net for a wider perspective. What I learned was that the USSR had no redeeming qualities and that it should always be compared to the west and found lacking, I'm suspicious of such sweeping generalizations.

That's not to say I'm excusing anything, rather that my focus has always been on the negatives, and I want to hear the other side.

And as a point of comparison, the rebuilding of western europe or the development of non-industrialized america in the depression (rural electrification), or the construction of the interstate system in the 50s, or the GI bill, were some of the world's biggest programs of redistribution that profoundly benefited all, I'm curious if the USSR or China had similar programs of redistribution that never get acknowledged because they also were pretty terrible regimes. Those aren't the only programs, but they contributed to a transformation in socio economic makeup. I feel like the USSR and China went through similar transformations, but again, are not acknowledged because we're only supposed to view them through the traditional binary view you laid out.

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it's routine to attribute famine deaths to 'communism,' such as in the ukraine in the 1930s or china in the GLF years, because those deaths appear fairly readily attributable to intentional policy decisions by persons who were communists of some sort and therefore the deaths are because of communism. (must leave aside the debate as to whether there was specific intent to kill the victims of the famines by the policymakers--the case against stalin is stronger than against mao, I think--though neither the rightwing nor the leftwing benefits much from the imputation of murderous intent to the leadership, given their ultimate rhetorical goals in this colloquy).

what is not routine, at least among those who wish to highlight this types of grim calculus, is the attribution of famine--and much more pedestrian starvation--deaths to 'capitalism' because of policy decisions by persons designated as political (as opposed to economic) capitalists. there, we get the ideology of personal responsibility to sweep up the deaths--it was your own fault for dying, after all, dirty poor person.

Even then, a lot of the famines in the USSR were caused by Kulaks, as opposed to the government.

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I'm surprised at the level of apology going on for the USSR. While I think the Nazis were worse and the Confederecy was very bad, the USSR certainly was right up there as bad as either. No slavery? The USSR forced German civilians into slavery after WWII. They set up forced labor camps throughout the country. If they needed more labor they arrested massive amounts of the population on bogus crimes to force them into labor. Large portions of the country were forced into labor projects and if they refused to work they were sent to concentration camps. The fact that they may have received 20 rubles for the day's work doesn't make them any less a slave. In the Confederecy slaves were given food and drink and shelter for their labor, in the USSR large portions of the population were forced into labor with no choice and given monetary payment which they then exchanged for food, drink, & shelter. Sounds a lot like slavery to me. I'd rate them just below Nazi Germany and just above the confederecy. The confederacy may have been a slave supporting country, but they aren't guilty of the levels of genocide & murder that came from the absolute rule of the USSR or Nazi Germany.



I do think WWII Japan is right up there with any of them. They saw themselves as ethnically superior to their neighbors and committed atrocities that rival the Nazis. The Nanking Massacre is one of the worst human atrocities in modern times. A lot of the atrocities committed by Japan have been swept under the rug due to their strategic significance to the allies(particularly the US) post WWII.


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Even then, a lot of the famines in the USSR were caused by Kulaks, as opposed to the government.

That's rich. It's rare to hear the uncritical recitation of Stalinist-era propaganda regarding the necessity of "Dekulakization" almost 100 years after the fact. Of course, the overwhelming consensus among professional historians is that the process of "Dekulakization" itself, which involved the mass deportation and sometimes murder of land-owning peasants "as a class" and the forcible confiscation and collectivization of private land, was primarily responsible for the resulting famine and millions of deaths.

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I'm surprised at the level of apology going on for the USSR. While I think the Nazis were worse and the Confederecy was very bad, the USSR certainly was right up there as bad as either.

Except that it is possible to list positive stuff about the USSR. You have to stretch to list positive stuff about the Nazis (animal rights and autobahns?), and I'm not sure the Confederacy actually had a single redeeming feature.

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Except that it is possible to list positive stuff about the USSR. You have to stretch to list positive stuff about the Nazis (animal rights and autobahns?), and I'm not sure the Confederacy actually had a single redeeming feature.

It only believed in the enslavement of black people, which one might argue is marginally more progressive than endorsing the enslavement of all people. Other than that, I got nothin'.

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The USSR was a morally complex creature, capable of both great good and great evil. No such complexity exists with regard to either the Confederacy or the Third Reich.

Truth, which could also be said about the US post WW2 if you look objectively. And we didn't help things by trying to paint them as the sole source of evil after for 40 years.

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The Russian army fought superbly in WWII, (mass rape of Eastern European women excepted) although I'd say that was despite, not because of the actions of the Politburo. Other than that, I'd struggle to find much that was positive about the Soviet Union.


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The Russian army fought superbly in WWII, (mass rape of Eastern European women excepted) although I'd say that was despite, not because of the actions of the Politburo. Other than that, I'd struggle to find much that was positive about the Soviet Union.

Great composers?

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glaurung--



the two sides in the debate are: USSR is generally sucky with some positive features and/or reasons for suckiness that are anterior to communism vs. USSR is worst thing ever with no redeeming features because of the commies. between those two positions, the reasonable persons herein prefer the former position and really shouldn't be smeared as apologists.



as to the forced labor/slavery issue: there was no lawful chattel slavery in the USSR, but they had corrective labor for dumbass political offenses, as they have in the united states now.


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Truth, which could also be said about the US post WW2 if you look objectively. And we didn't help things by trying to paint them as the sole source of evil after for 40 years.

The same can be said about most countries at one point or another. Post WWII US though is not on a comparable level as the USSR. I think you could make an argument for Pre-Cvil War US and for a time Post-Civil War as being up there at or near the level of the USSR. Pre-Civil War US we waged mass genocide on the native peoples and enslaved Africans. The immediate decades after the Civil War may be a step below pre-civil war since we abolished slavery...though we still kept the genocide, even if it wasn't state sanctioned.

I'm failing to find many redeeming qualities of the USSR though... Some are saying that they did some good that helped to balance out the bad, but I'm not finding much.

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glaurung--

the two sides in the debate are: USSR is generally sucky with some positive features and/or reasons for suckiness that are anterior to communism vs. USSR is worst thing ever with no redeeming features because of the commies. between those two positions, the reasonable persons herein prefer the former position and really shouldn't be smeared as apologists.

as to the forced labor/slavery issue: there was no lawful chattel slavery in the USSR, but they had corrective labor for dumbass political offenses, as they have in the united states now.

While I don't find many good qualities with communism(or at least as it has been practiced in most countries to date), it is not the presence of communism that leads to my dislike of the USSR. I just fail to find many redeeming qualities.

I can find plenty of redeeming qualities of communist China, but I fail to find many about the USSR, at least not enough to balance out the atrocities committed.

As for there being no "chattel slavery", just because you're giving a payment at the end of the day doesn't mean you're not a slave. When you're forced into labor with no choice in the matter and the only option of deciding to not do the work is being sent to a work camp/concentration camp, then you are a slave. It doesn't matter if they throw a few rubles your way at the end of the work day. Also, forcing the German civilians into forced labor is slavery, whether you say it's reparations for WWII, it's still slavery. They were civilians and their only crime was being German.

Maybe I'm jaded in this, as my best friend fled to the US from eastern europe as a child. The horror stories he's told of the things he and his family endured may have me a bit biased on this, but it doesn't change history.

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The same can be said about most countries at one point or another. Post WWII US though is not on a comparable level as the USSR. I think you could make an argument for Pre-Cvil War US and for a time Post-Civil War as being up there at or near the level of the USSR. Pre-Civil War US we waged mass genocide on the native peoples and enslaved Africans. The immediate decades after the Civil War may be a step below pre-civil war since we abolished slavery...though we still kept the genocide, even if it wasn't state sanctioned.

I'm failing to find many redeeming qualities of the USSR though... Some are saying that they did some good that helped to balance out the bad, but I'm not finding much.

It is on a comparable level, unless you want to ignore the constant state of war we've been in since WW2 and invaded sovereign nations with impunity.

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