purple-eyes Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 I just want to throw a question here. Do you think sword Blackfyre would apprear again if Aegon was a Blackfyre? Somebody said GRRM's original manuscript said something about a aword for Aegon. Many guess that is Blackfye. I like that sword and hope to see it again. But I know it will reveal the status of Aegon, which may be the reason why GRRM deleted this part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 No, I'm not SERIOUSLY suggesting that. This is, for me, the biggest problem with the idea that Varys came to Westeros intent on ... doing something with the Iron Throne. If Varys was so keen to see a sensible ruler on the Throne, why not Rhaegar? If Varys was so keen to see a Targaryen on the Throne, why provide Aerys with the ammunition to so spectacularly blow up his realm and more or less invite rebellion? If Varys was so keen to see a Blackfyre on the Throne.... where does he fit? The whole thing doesn't make sense, from any angle. Pisswater Prince swap smells fishy, Blackfyre plot smells fishy, the whole thing smells fishy. Until such time as GRRM publishes the next book, we're stuck with fishy. The least fishy thing is: why Varys came to Westeros to be the Master of Whispers for Aerys is a mystery. Perhaps he was just good at his job and hired on that basis? Varys and Illyrio clearly have a history and a plan to do... something with the Iron Throne. For most of the books, we don't know what. By ADWD it's clear that "something" is to install Aegon VI, ostensibly bred from Targaryen stock and raised to rule sensibly Why does a cheesemonger from Pentos care about the Iron Throne? Enter the Blackfyre theory. Where does Varys fit into the Blackfyre theory? Not sure He's either invested in it through blood or money - or a higher purpose (i.e. religion? Faceless Men? Citadel? Magic??? Fire/Ice??) His enthusiasm suggests blood or magic/religion/whatever rather than money is the main motivator throughout the associated media (TWOIAF, Dunk and Egg etc) we have this civil war between Aegon the Unworthy's bastard Daemon Blackfyre and the "Red Dragons" of the legitimate (or supposedly legitimate) Targaryens. Obviously Red v Black is important, somehow. "Red or black, a dragon's still a dragon" is just too big a nod to BF to discount. Especially when tied to "some contracts are writ in ink, some in blood" - those are the two main quotes that suggest a Blackfyre conspiracy of some kind to me. Everything else - Aegon could just be some kid they've groomed to believe he is the real Aegon. But add those two remarks from Illyrio, and his otherwise inexplicable interest in the boy, and then the Blackfyre theory makes sense. I just haven't a clue where Varys sits in it. *whew, sigh of relief* The baby swap isn't fishy. Jon pulled off the same thing without a network of secret passages and tunnels, informants whose silence is guaranteed, or time to find a baby who looked like a reasonable double of the one he was saving. If Jon can do that and only Val, Gilly, and Aemon seem to have noticed, then Varys with his far greater resources could easily have saved little Aegon. Thank you for taking the time to explain your reasoning to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 (F)Aegon is the son of Melario of Norvos, who wanders around with him as Septa Lemore. He is the original, baby-swapped, "Quentyn Martell", and the only sibling who takes after his mom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 If Varys was so keen to see a sensible ruler on the Throne, why not Rhaegar? If Varys was so keen to see a Targaryen on the Throne, why provide Aerys with the ammunition to so spectacularly blow up his realm and more or less invite rebellion? If Varys was so keen to see a Blackfyre on the Throne.... where does he fit? 1. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that the idea of having a sensible ruler on the throne came to Varys because of the rebellion. And besides, Rhaegar seemed like a lunatic of sorts himself. 2. Have you ever considered the possibility that Varys was actually doing his job and that Aerys becoming mad was simply a product of Varys doing his job with supreme efficiency? The idea that Varys came with the intention of causing trouble is completely unsupported by text and yet, seemingly very popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 I've been thinking about the Brightfyre theory and although I had initially written it off as completely crackpot, it's starting to make more sense to me. It still lacks clear cut evidence (such as the where the Blackfyre and Brightflame come from) but it does erase away some of the glaring holes in the Blackfyre theory as well as being more powerful thematically. And it fits in with the Tavern sign as well. There's a BF and GC interpretation to the sign but I think you can interpret it in a third way which ties in with the Brightfyre theory. Not sure if this has been mention before but what if the important thing about the Tavern sign are the numbers? A 3 headed dragon hacked away and thrown into the water emerges back years later as 1 red dragon. What I'm proposing is that the '3' stands for the 3 branches of House Targaryen. House Blackfyre who were thrown beyond the narrow sea, Aeron Brightflame who was exiled to the free cities and House Targaryen themselves who had to flee to Essos. The Brightfyres and Blackfyres unite under 1 Targaryen name because after all, a Dragon is a Dragon and they have all been subject to the same fate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 I've been thinking about the Brightfyre theory and although I had initially written it off as completely crackpot, it's starting to make more sense to me. It still lacks clear cut evidence (such as the where the Blackfyre and Brightflame come from) but it does erase away some of the glaring holes in the Blackfyre theory as well as being more powerful thematically. And it fits in with the Tavern sign as well. There's a BF and GC interpretation to the sign but I think you can interpret it in a third way which ties in with the Brightfyre theory. Not sure if this has been mention before but what if the important thing about the Tavern sign are the numbers? A 3 headed dragon hacked away and thrown into the water emerges back years later as 1 red dragon. What I'm proposing is that the '3' stands for the 3 branches of House Targaryen. House Blackfyre who were thrown beyond the narrow sea, Aeron Brightflame who was exiled to the free cities and House Targaryen themselves who had to flee to Essos. The Brightfyres and Blackfyres unite under 1 Targaryen name because after all, a Dragon is a Dragon and they have all been subject to the same fate.Oh my! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Oh my! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackFyre > BlackFire Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 (F)Aegon is the son of Melario of Norvos, who wanders around with him as Septa Lemore. He is the original, baby-swapped, "Quentyn Martell", and the only sibling who takes after his mom. Did it amuse you to post this? Did you somehow think this was funny or clever or even original in some way? Did you imagine that it somehow added to the conversation taking place amongst adults who have learned not to act on every thought that passes through their brains? Seriously, I'm interested. What do you gain by posting nonsense like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connartist92 Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 How is that remotely logical when you yourself pointed out in the previous post that no one would be believe he was a Targaryen? The Tyrells were the biggest and strongest Targ loyalists and they clearly are not buying Aegon's story. Disguising a BF a Targ boy who's widely believed to be dead serves no purpose at all. It's really quite idiotic. It's logical to *try* and disguise himself as a Targ, doesn't mean anyone is actually going to believe it. It serves a purpose because if they WERE TO believe him (which as I said is UNLIKELY), he would be the lawful Targaryen heir. I don't even think he IS a Blackfyre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Did it amuse you to post this? Did you somehow think this was funny or clever or even original in some way? Did you imagine that it somehow added to the conversation taking place amongst adults who have learned not to act on every thought that passes through their brains? Seriously, I'm interested. What do you gain by posting nonsense like this? I am afraid I am having a little difficulty understanding your question. I don't speak Orc, or Black Speech, or Yahoo, or whatever language it is that you are trying to communicate to me in. Please try again in the language of decent people, instead of meeping at me like a Ghoul, and perhaps I will respond if I have the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackFyre > BlackFire Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 I am afraid I am having a little difficulty understanding your question. I don't speak Orc, or Black Speech, or Yahoo, or whatever language it is that you are trying to communicate to me in. Please try again in the language of decent people, instead of meeping at me like a Ghoul, and perhaps I will respond if I have the time. This qualifies as a response. But, ok, let's try this: Why do so many people on internet forums feel it's necessary to be rude to people? Why do so many posters feel it's necessary to make a post that adds nothing to the conversation? Why do you personally feel it's necessary to post something on every thread, even if it's pointless and unhumorous? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 This qualifies as a response. But, ok, let's try this: Why do so many people on internet forums feel it's necessary to be rude to people? Why do so many posters feel it's necessary to make a post that adds nothing to the conversation? Why do you personally feel it's necessary to post something on every thread, even if it's pointless and unhumorous? Let me guess: I suppose you would take the position that you are NOT being disgustingly rude and personal with me right now and in your prior post. I suppose you would say that you are holding back out of extreme politeness. I suppose you would take the position that I deserve far worse than the bitter waves of contempt you are wafting in my direction. Is that right? And it seems this has less to do with the 2-line remark I made in this thread, and more to do with some kind of general grudge you are holding for things I have said in other threads. Or have I somehow misinterpreted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Nobody seemed interested in my brief remark about Quentyn. And I was fine with that. But since the remark has come under bitter attack, I am tempted to elaborate and explain a bit. If no-one is still interested, that is fine. No, the remark was not a joke. The OP sought to list all the theories about Griff Jr.'s identity, so I made mention of a theory that had seen and that was not on the list. To put it another way, the theory holds that Griff Jr. is the second child of Doran Martell and Melario of Norvos and/or that the "Quentyn Martell" we know is someone else raised from infancy as a decoy or whatever; and that our Quentyn's mission to Dany was a long-shot at best that Doran never really expected to succeed. Was the remark "serious"? I dunno. Define "serious". Is this thread "serious"? Seems to me the "serious" answer to the question of "Who is Griff Jr.?" is "I don't know, because I am not GRRM and I have not read books 6 and 7 yet." But it seemed to me that brainstorming, and playing with ideas, and considering all available options and possibilities was in keeping with the spirit of the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 It's logical to *try* and disguise himself as a Targ, doesn't mean anyone is actually going to believe it. It serves a purpose because if they WERE TO believe him (which as I said is UNLIKELY), he would be the lawful Targaryen heir. I don't even think he IS a Blackfyre. Er......that is why it's completely illogical. No sane person would count on Aegon's story being believed whether true or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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