Feminism redux - please read first post of thread

[TerraPrime]

Every god damn fucking week, the feminism thread is derailed and dragged back to the mud by people equipped with no more than 5th grade level reasoning skills and a dick, offering craptastic argument that insult both women, men, and the human intellect. So, this thread is the place to get away from that metaphorical shit.

In this thread, the validity of feminism is not a subject for discussion - accept it, or don't post here.

The topics suitable for this thread include, but are not limited to:

- as cross-cultural feminism

- comparisons and developments in a various branches of feminism

- social, cultural, and political phenomena that exemplify/illustrate feminism positively or negatively

- the role of feminism in different arena of human endeavors (job, religions, sports, dating, entertainment, etc.)

Criticism for the existence and justification of feminism can still take place elsewhere on the board - go knock yourselves out over there.

[1918me]

Hallelujah! This was a great idea!

[Mlle. Zabzie]

I miss Raidne in these threads. That said, one of the things I struggle with is a third wave/second wave sort of struggle. I struggle both on a micro and macro level. In particular, most recently with my daughters-they love super heros. They love princesses. I am having to take a deep breath and embrace the pink and realize that they will be their own people and that my example and that of my husband is more important than any princess movie (and you know Frozen isn't so bad).

[Gneisenau]

I miss Raidne in these threads. That said, one of the things I struggle with is a third wave/second wave sort of struggle. I struggle both on a micro and macro level. In particular, most recently with my daughters-they love super heros. They love princesses. I am having to take a deep breath and embrace the pink and realize that they will be their own people and that my example and that of my husband is more important than any princess movie (and you know Frozen isn't so bad).

Has anybody (in 2nd/3rd wave) suggested loving "traditional" feminine stuff (for lack of a better term) is problematic ? the issue has always been (at least from what I can see) that one wasn't allowed to like "non feminine" stuff (for lack of a better term).

[Gillio]

Zabz,

That's true, and keeping the conversation lines open is important, too. These threads are so helpful to me when I discuss things like feminism with my boys. Younger son (25) had a discussion about privilege the other day, and being white and male, he had his doubts it existed. I used the analogy of handedness (we are both lefties); he could see things were much better for him as a left hander growing up, than they were for me.

I asked him if he thought there were still advantages to being right handed, he agreed there were. I asked him if he thought right handed people would see themselves as advantaged, or privileged. The penny dropped. There is still a way to go, but at least he's thinking.

[E-Ro]

Interesting thread, I think this will be an easier place for people newer to this(such as myself) to get in on the discussion. I lurked the feminism threads in the past, but never got directly involved.

I haven't ever really been exposed to feminism, other then on the internet. So I probably wont have much to contribute, I guess I just wanted to say I enjoy these threads and honestly this one is probably going to be a way better environment then the last few(the ones that i saw, anyway).

[1918me]

Has anybody (in 2nd/3rd wave) suggested loving "traditional" feminine stuff (for lack of a better term) is problematic ? the issue has always been (at least from what I can see) that one wasn't allowed to like "non feminine" stuff (for lack of a better term).

That's the way I've always seen it as well. Of course, it goes the other way. For instance, my parents were always really great about allowing my siblings and I to get whatever toys and games we wanted (for birthdays and Christmas, not all the time, obviously), regardless of gender. (e.g. at one point, some of the boys in my family had a couple Barbies, and were not once discouraged to own them).

In short, the main issue for me has always been to strive for total gender blindness when deciding what products are and are not suitable for your children, so girls like can enjoy "boy" stuff, and boys can enjoy "girl" stuff.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

I have always seen second wave as a rejection of women's portrayal n popular culture (so Disney a big no no) and third as re embracing the traditionally feminine in order to reclaim it. I'm happy to be corrected though - I haven't made a huge study of the issues.

I love the handedness story. As now the mother of a son it is somethig I'm going to have to remember.

[karaddin]

There have certainly been vocal segments of feminism that disapprove of or outright condemn traditional feminine expression, largely as buying into the gender binary and accepting the order of the patriarchy. Whether these segments were large enough to be considered the dominant voice of feminism is an argument that could be had, but it was and is definitely there.

At risk of sounding like a broken record, the devaluation of femininity runs all through society, even when it's accepted and approved of (ie traditional conservative values) it's considered inferior to masculinity. This is the central argument of Serano's work.

I think in Zabzies case probably more of a reluctance to buy into the way girls are inundated with pink and princesses, and it's a hard line to draw but we do have to allow that many people will just like that stuff. The reasons why will be complex, but as long as they know they have an open free choice I don't know there's that much you can do.

ETA: ninja'd. I actually don't know much about 3rd wave, I see most of what I read and engage with as being 4th wave now. Brook has done some on it recently though so may have better input on that.

[Gneisenau]

There have certainly been vocal segments of feminism that disapprove of or outright condemn traditional feminine expression, largely as buying into the gender binary and accepting the order of the patriarchy. Whether these segments were large enough to be considered the dominant voice of feminism is an argument that could be had, but it was and is definitely there.

Sure if by traditional you mean things like family hierarchy and chastity. But those are justs values of authority and purity (and in particular not liberal values). Have there been feminists who suggested little girls should not play with barbies ?

[Summah]

That girls should not play with Barbies, lots I'd guess, mostly because of how unrealistic and stereotypical she is.

[Gneisenau]

That girls should not play with Barbies, lots I'd guess, mostly because of how unrealistic and stereotypical she is.

Perhaps I phrased it poorly, but that is a critique of a specific doll, not girls playing with dolls and princesses in general.

[karaddin]

No I don't mean traditional just in that sense, I mean pretty much everything that would typically be regarded as a feminine (or greater, as in hyper feminine) presentation. It varies depending on the group obviously which I said in the original post, but heels, make up, bras, dresses and skirts and so on have all been criticised at some point or another. Pink has been seen as the enemy.

[brook]

Yes there is definitely an attitude running through feminists of my generation that it is better for little girls to be playing with 'boys stuff' than 'girls stuff'

To a point I even agree, if I had a girl I would probably have encouraged her more towards the 'boy toys' than the pink aisle simply to try and provide balance to the overwhelming pressure that girls get from everywhere else to conform to gender stereotypes.

I'm not sure that doing so would have been right, and because I don't have a girl I never had the chance to see. I do to some extent attempt the opposite with my boys but frankly my influence is like a drop in the bucket compared to what they get from society and with all of them my influence in that regard seemed to come to a screeching halt at school age.

[Spring Bass]

The color pink may be reclaimable, since it didn't pick up the current association itself until the early 20th century (before that, it was apparently a working-class color). It could be changed again, maybe, if there was a massive effort to rebrand it.

[emberling]

In particular, most recently with my daughters-they love super heros. They love princesses. I am having to take a deep breath and embrace the pink

There has never been a better time to be a feminist who loves pink princesses. Fairy tale reimaginings are hot shit right now, and since the common, Disney-filtered-through-vague-cultural-telephone-games conception of fairy tales (centered on the trifecta Cinderella, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, which also form the core of the current trend) tends to the very sexist, these reimaginings are often highly feminist. Or at least full of strong, independent female characters while being the usual problematic as fuck otherwise. I see cool pink princess stuff cropping up everywhere, like Princess Princess and Long Live the Queen.

Of course, it'll all be years out of style by the time your kids are old enough to appreciate it. Other than Brave and Frozen, which can surely be seen as part of this wave because they explicitly included deconstructions of expected princess narratives.

[Shryke]

I miss Raidne in these threads. That said, one of the things I struggle with is a third wave/second wave sort of struggle. I struggle both on a micro and macro level. In particular, most recently with my daughters-they love super heros. They love princesses. I am having to take a deep breath and embrace the pink and realize that they will be their own people and that my example and that of my husband is more important than any princess movie (and you know Frozen isn't so bad).

This was the most true in my experience. I was never really outright told about anything feminist as a kid. I just picked it up from my parents and what they did and how they behaved in life and towards one another. They shared chores, they both worked high skill jobs and neither of them treated the other as "the one responsible for all that homemaker stuff". I know my mom and her sister have really feminist views on gender roles now, but growing up I never felt like it was a point that need to be made. We got it. (Shit, they graduated in the hard sciences back in the 70s. My mom was literally one of only 2 women in her class.)

Your kids aren't gonna be raised by you and think "My mom's a highly trained, highly paid and highly respected legal professional. Women just aren't as smart or as capable as men." Pink clothes don't effect that.

[Sparrowyn]

I miss Raidne in these threads. That said, one of the things I struggle with is a third wave/second wave sort of struggle. I struggle both on a micro and macro level. In particular, most recently with my daughters-they love super heros. They love princesses. I am having to take a deep breath and embrace the pink and realize that they will be their own people and that my example and that of my husband is more important than any princess movie (and you know Frozen isn't so bad).

I agree with you that the color pink and little girls loving princesses is all fairly inconsequential... though I don't get the unholy attraction little girls have for sparkles. Seemed every craft project I did with my stepdaughter involved glue and sparkles. Then there was a great technological advance made, and you could buy glue with sparkles already in it! For little girls it's like heroin.:)

Where I had problems, was with the important stuff... like not wanting her to join the local Girl Scouts, a battle I lost. Where I put my foot down was when she got a bit older and wanted to be a cheerleader. I braved the tears and the sulking, and the "I hate you", but I did not allow it. To me, cheering on a bunch of boys on a playing field is degrading. I sometimes wonder if I was being too harsh.

That is the sort of thing that I wish feminists were more vocal about; young girls being involved in cheerleading, beauty contests, selling cookies, etc.

[McCracken]

Is cheerleading degrading?

Do you mean:

the girls who do it lose respect for themselves and/or feel humiliated?

that other people don't respect them?

that you don't respect them?

or something else?

[Lyanna Stark]

Regarding reclaiming the feminine, as a total sidenote, it looks like Austria's Conchita Wurst may be the winner of the 2014 Eurovision, or at least the betting institutes think she has a very good chance of being so. If someone is interested, you can follow it online on http://www.eurovision.tv/ on Saturday evening (Euro time) so Sunday morning in Australia and Sat day time in the US.

Sure if by traditional you mean things like family hierarchy and chastity. But those are justs values of authority and purity (and in particular not liberal values). Have there been feminists who suggested little girls should not play with barbies ?

Yes, mostly because barbie perpetuates a completely unrealistic and warped beauty ideal. There have been online projects to show what barbie would look like if she was modeled on a real woman, for instance.

The main gist of that argument is that girls learn from an early age that the female body is a problem that constantly needs correcting. It is not an element which we can use to grasp the world with, it is a faulty shell which needs fixing and which can never reach the ideal. It also implies that the natural female body is something to be ashamed of, something that is ugly.

In fact, lots of feminists are on the bandwagon that the female body is in itself one huge weakness and prison (see for instance de Beauvoir who in the section "biology" almost drops hatred for the female body, which makes he final conclusion all the more surprising, perhaps)

I think Julia Serano's take is more helpful for today's people as she's a biologist herself and very matter of fact in her explanations when she exposes the negativity around women's bodies and femininity with how it's linked to seeing masculinity in a positive light and femininity in a negative one.

In general, I cannot recommend "Whipping Girl" enough. It is extremely concise, clear and logical (which to me made the more emotional and angry chapters that much more poignant, actually, because there are a few, but mostly Serano has a very calm and concise tone.) It's not particularly long either, unlike a lot of other feminist works which can drag on forever. While it contains quite a bit of terminology, this is all explained along the way and doesn't take you unawares.