karaddin Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 McCracken it is possible to be aware of the reasons you are wearing something/engaging in certain activities, but to get right to the bottom it generally requires an awful lot of introspection and a skill called mentalisation by psychs. As Lyanna says it starts with asking why and following that thought back to it's origins, then asking why for that and so on.As a trans woman its something I've done a lot of, but it still takes time to follow the thought threads back when I don't know why I'm doing something or feeling a certain way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlle. Zabzie Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 TP. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I think many activities influence perception of self/body image and it's hard to say how that comes out on any particular person. In this case I think the feminist questions are simpler to tease out and discuss, as complicated as they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
litechick Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 As for the second sentence, to me that is what defines feminism. That it is so far the only movement which main aim is for us to live in a world where we are no longer restricted by gender or sex. Thank you Lyanna. If I had the education, this is exactly what I would write to demonstrate my point that the word feminist is meaningless (or rather, has too many meanings) and counter-productive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Thank you Lyanna. If I had the education, this is exactly what I would write to demonstrate my point that the word feminist is meaningless (or rather, has too many meanings) and counter-productive. It's no more broadly used then conservative, liberal, progressive or basically any political designation. You more seem to be searching for any reason to avoid using the term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Thank you Lyanna. If I had the education, this is exactly what I would write to demonstrate my point that the word feminist is meaningless (or rather, has too many meanings) and counter-productive.One short search on Google can help sort out this kind of terminology fail. You do not need to read a library full of books to get the difference between radical feminism, liberal feminism and socialist feminism. The last of the three are pretty self explanatory as well I think. However, if a poster comes in and claims to dislike group x based on something group y said/did, that means the poster has the terminology backwards.It's really nothing more complicated than that.I suspect that are only meaningless in that they are not extremely familiar to people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brook Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 A pretty good article on why objectification is dangerous. I just finished an essay on Sandra Bartky's On Psychological Oppression which deals with most of the issues touched on here. If you haven't read it I think you might enjoy it. It's another older work that is still shockingly relevant today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 I just finished an essay on Sandra Bartky's On Psychological Oppression which deals with most of the issues touched on here. If you haven't read it I think you might enjoy it. It's another older work that is still shockingly relevant today. Oh yes, is it avauilable outside Universities? I feel like I need to sign up to courses just to access to proper literary resources! One of the problems with living out in the arse end of nowhwere where you are more likely to run into this than feminist texts (I checked in our library for audre lorde texts and the librarian asked me if I was certain I had spelled it correctly since they didn't have it in their systems :eek: ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brook Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 My local library is pretty awful too, it's painful because I'm actually a fair distance away from my uni, I'm thankful for the resources they do have online! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted May 10, 2014 Author Share Posted May 10, 2014 Thank you Lyanna. If I had the education, this is exactly what I would write to demonstrate my point that the word feminist is meaningless (or rather, has too many meanings) and counter-productive. That seems a bit of a werid leap of logic to me. If we apply that same system of evaluation, then "American" will also be meaningless, because how do we know whether the term refers to Asian Americans, African Americans, American conservatives, American evangelicals, etc. etc.? I think the term "feminist" does convey a meaning that is true to all branches of feminism even as each branch adds their own derivitatives to the core meaning. I also think that it is useful as a term representing the opposite of not-feminists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1918me Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 That seems a bit of a werid leap of logic to me. If we apply that same system of evaluation, then "American" will also be meaningless, because how do we know whether the term refers to Asian Americans, African Americans, American conservatives, American evangelicals, etc. etc.?I think the term "feminist" does convey a meaning that is true to all branches of feminism even as each branch adds their own derivitatives to the core meaning. I also think that it is useful as a term representing the opposite of not-feminists. I've identified as feminist pretty much since I first learned what the word meant, and I definitely agree that there is a lot of value in identifying as such. It signals that one is cognizant of women's (and sometimes men's) cultural obstacles, and that one believes that gender equality is both a worthy goal and, as of yet, unattained. It certainly is a wide umbrella term, but it is useful nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 I just finished an essay on Sandra Bartky's On Psychological Oppression which deals with most of the issues touched on here. If you haven't read it I think you might enjoy it. It's another older work that is still shockingly relevant today. Started it, and it's really interesting! I love the discussion on catcalling and why it is so invasive. Question is: how to counter all the "But you should be thankful someone thought you were hot enough" claims? I mean, I don't feel like I need confirmation from a bunch of guys catcalling when I walk past at all. How to explain to people the reductive nature of that sort of objectification? The observation made in the article that the objectification would have been non-invasive and not at all oppressive if it had been done in silence (i.e. without the part where "I see you and reduce you to sexual object" part being announced) is interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted May 13, 2014 Author Share Posted May 13, 2014 Question is: how to counter all the "But you should be thankful someone thought you were hot enough" claims? I had a similar discussion in a different context, with white men who fetishizes Asian men as BDSM Dominants. There were some interesting insights there concerning the "you should be grateful that someone likes you." Which, of coure, we all should be, but then, in all contexts? I don't think so. One of the manifestations of this adoration is actually a reinforcement of power dynamics where one party has the authority to approve and the other party is the recipient for approval. Hidden behind those catcalls is the judgement that the other women do not meet approval, yes? And making a public display of this approval is an exercise of power. That is why it is annoying and belittling, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannisaurus Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 I had a similar discussion in a different context, with white men who fetishizes Asian men as BDSM Dominants. There were some interesting insights there concerning the "you should be grateful that someone likes you." Which, of coure, we all should be, but then, in all contexts? I don't think so. One of the manifestations of this adoration is actually a reinforcement of power dynamics where one party has the authority to approve and the other party is the recipient for approval. Hidden behind those catcalls is the judgement that the other women do not meet approval, yes? And making a public display of this approval is an exercise of power. That is why it is annoying and belittling, imo. If we accept that the bold is true, then wouldn't all instances of public affection have the same implicit judgment? Not that I am claiming that catcalling is best categorized as "public affection". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 If we accept that the bold is true, then wouldn't all instances of public affection have the same implicit judgment? Not that I am claiming that catcalling is best categorized as "public affection". Hmm, you compare a couple sharing a mutual kiss to being cat called? The first is mutual (well, we can hope at least!), while the second is definitely not. I mean, theoretically, the person(s) catcalling could just watch and admire in silence, no? But instead, by cat calling, they're enforcing that they are now viewing the object as a "nice piece of ass" which as the object, you can't really get away from. You are taken away from yourself, the way you were, and are being forced into seeing yourself as someone else sees you: as the object. So as Terra says, this is an exercise in power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannisaurus Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Hmm, you compare a couple sharing a mutual kiss to being cat called? No I don't, which is why I objected. If the problem with (public) catcalling is that is implies that other women aside from the "target" are not "approved" (something I disagree but I accept for the sake of argument) then anything that can imply at the same degree that other women are not "approved" would be viewed in the same way. That includes mutual affections (a couple kissing), "semi-mutual" affections (a boyfriend telling his girlfriend in public that she looks pretty) or non-mutual affections (a guy approaching an unknown girl and telling her that she is pretty). Each of the above share the same implication, that other women are "unapproved", at least to a similar degree, if not more, with catcalling (I don't think that is actually an implication of catcalling but i accept it for the sake of argument). There are plenty of arguments I can come up with against catcalling. The bolded part of TerrorPrime's post is one I disagree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 That's kinda...bizarre thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannisaurus Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 That's kinda...bizarre thinking. Not mine though. I just followed the implications of a statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted May 13, 2014 Author Share Posted May 13, 2014 If we accept that the bold is true, then wouldn't all instances of public affection have the same implicit judgment? Sure, if it makes you happy to think that I think that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannisaurus Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Sure, if it makes you happy to think that I think that. I have never said or implied that you think that but sure, if it makes you happy to think that I think that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Not mine though. I just followed the implications of a statement. You know, I can't see how you do. One is reciprocal, the other is not. Which is the basis for the original statement. If it is mutual and reciprocal, given by both parties, then it is a completely different thing altogether from something that is forced upon you by someone else. The latter is a one way street. So, I am really not sure how you came to your conclusions. I cannot apply any logic that will make reciprocal = forced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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