Barristan Selmy... White Cloak of many Kings.

[Starspear]

Indeed. If anything, the three KG at TOJ were less honorable than Barry, seeing as how they chose not to go and protect their king or lead his armies, but instead chose to defend some tower on the word of the crown prince.

Assuming they were following Rhaegar's orders.

I think they were following Aerys'. We'll find out in due time.

[Starspear]

Barristan is certainly not an oathbreaker. He is simply a real human being which contracts with the ultra honorable fiction made about him. Even so he tries to be honorable, to be good and regrets saving Aerys in the

Well, maybe not a real human being, but I'm with you. He's realistic and human, in that GRRM way that makes him compelling.

I don't think he's an oathbreaker either... but I think he's selective in his oath interpretation.

as I said later, it's not safety but social standing what moves Barristan

Yep. He would have lost above if he followed Robert's Will. Ended up losing it anyways, but stayed alive. Can't blame him.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Indeed. If anything, the three KG at TOJ were less honorable than Barry, seeing as how they chose not to go and protect their king or lead his armies, but instead chose to defend some tower on the word of the crown prince.

Yep. They knew that Aerys life was in danger, yet chose to remain there. It's clear that they were more loyal to Rhaegar than Aerys, which is technically treason.

So, even though objectively Barristan did have a choice of running to Viserys in a fool's attempt to help him restore the power, perhaps out of some sense of duty and honor, he stayed with the man who showed him kindness and mercy. Robert deserved Barristan's loyalty with his behavior during Trident and Barristan chose to stay with him honoring Robert's victory and yes, his vows that are for life.

Yes. I think serving Robert was also an earlier attempt to serve a King that was worthwhile

[Mladen]

Yep. He would have lost above if he followed Robert's Will. Ended up losing it anyways, but stayed alive. Can't blame him.

What exactly would have Barristan lost if he had followed Robert's will? For which, he never knew it existed prior to the point when Ned shoved it in his hands.

[Starspear]

What exactly would have Barristan lost if he had followed Robert's will? For which, he never knew it existed prior to the point when Ned shoved it in his hands.

His social standing.

[Mladen]

His social standing.

What social standing? Ned planned to crown Stannis, who was more than satisfied with Barristan. What are you talking about?

[Dany's Silver]

Barristan Selmy is NOT an oath breaker. He bent the knee to Robert, but he did not know that at the ToJ, the Crown Prince's remaining heir was being guarded by his 3 KG brethren. Selmy didn't know that there was one whose claim was stronger than Viserys' (the uncle cannot come before the nephew on the line of succession). He served Rhaegar (and by extension Aerys) so well at the Trident that he was mortally wounded. Robert, not one to blame someone for fighting loyally for the other side, sends his own maester to tend Selmy's wounds. He would have been far too weak (and a captive to boot) to seek out Rhaella, Viserys, and the as yet unborn Dany. The Targaryens ruled by right of conquest and so the conqueror of the Iron Throne is the legitimate King of Westeros. As far as Selmy was concerned (not knowing of Rhaegar's heir), the now rightful king had pardoned him and allowed him to continue as a member of the KG, and even allowing him to become Lord Commander. It was clearly as oddity when Joffrey (really Cersei and the small council) "released" him from his oath. Nothing like that had ever been done before.

I also seem to recall that Selmy and Renly were both witnesses to the will, or I am misremembering the scene as it appears in AGoT. I will check when I am at home.

[Lord Reaver]

I also seem to recall that Selmy and Renly were both witnesses to the will, or I am misremembering the scene as it appears in AGoT. I will check when I am at home.

There were no witnesses. That's the entire point, which makes only the raeders sure of the fact that Ned wasn't betraying Robert. Everyone else, Barry included, couldn't know that for certain.

[Tormund GiantsMANE]

Exactly (ignoring ToJ). It was a choice for Barristan to swith allegiance.

his allegiance isn't to a family, but the king. He didn't bend the knee to spare his life, he swore an oath to protect the new king as he did the last. Those who act like the 3 from the ToJ fought just so as not to have to serve Robert are being abit dishonest, no? We don't all have to believe R+L=J, but those 3 didn't stay there and battle it out (to their deaths) with Ned and the Gang just so as not to serve the new king

[Dany's Silver]

There were no witnesses. That's the entire point, which makes only the raeders sure of the fact that Ned wasn't betraying Robert. Everyone else, Barry included, couldn't know that for certain.

Yes, I misremembered the part where Ned tells Robert that the seal should be witnessed, and it's not Selmy, but rather Pycelle who witnesses along with Renly. Naturally, the two were not invited to read the letter, although Renly already suspected what it contained. It always kills me (and poor Ned) that Renly fled, when he could have backed Ned (since we all know whose bitch Pycelle!).

"Yes, Your Grace." Ned offered Robert the paper. The king scrawled his signature blindly, leaving a smear of blood across the letter. "The seal should be witnessed."

[...]

Ned was not laughing. "Shall I call them back?"

Robert gave a weak nod. "As you will. Gods, why is it so cold in here?"

The servants rushed back in and hurried to feed the fires. The queen had gone; that was some small relief, at least. If she had any sense, Cersei would take her children and fly before the break of day, Ned thought. She had lingered too long already.

King Robert did not seem to miss her. He bid his brother Renly and Grand Maester Pycelle to stand in witness as he pressed his seal into the hot yellow wax that Ned had dripped upon his letter. "Now give me something for the pain and let me die." AGoT, Chapter 47; Eddard (pp. 505-6)

[juanml82]

If that is your argument, why did you cite the Ned quote and say it applied to Barristan ?

I said "It sort of applies" because remembering that quote made me think of Barristan for the reasons I outlined. Are you done nitpicking?

Nonsense. Your entire argumentation is ridiculous since there is not one instance in the text upon which can base this.

Barristan Selmy serves Joffrey until he's demoted to a landed knight. If that didn't matter to him, he would have obeyed his King's command, retreated to his new holdings and enjoy his retirement. He didn't. Instead, he chose to betray the boy he considered his King until the moment he got demoted.

Barristan Selmy is NOT an oath breaker. He bent the knee to Robert, but he did not know that at the ToJ, the Crown Prince's remaining heir was being guarded by his 3 KG brethren. Selmy didn't know that there was one whose claim was stronger than Viserys' (the uncle cannot come before the nephew on the line of succession). He served Rhaegar (and by extension Aerys) so well at the Trident that he was mortally wounded. Robert, not one to blame someone for fighting loyally for the other side, sends his own maester to tend Selmy's wounds. He would have been far too weak (and a captive to boot) to seek out Rhaella, Viserys, and the as yet unborn Dany. The Targaryens ruled by right of conquest and so the conqueror of the Iron Throne is the legitimate King of Westeros. As far as Selmy was concerned (not knowing of Rhaegar's heir), the now rightful king had pardoned him and allowed him to continue as a member of the KG, and even allowing him to become Lord Commander. It was clearly as oddity when Joffrey (really Cersei and the small council) "released" him from his oath. Nothing like that had ever been done before.

I also seem to recall that Selmy and Renly were both witnesses to the will, or I am misremembering the scene as it appears in AGoT. I will check when I am at home.

Setting aside the whole idea that Jon is a legitimate son of Rhaegar, there is no arguing that, for anyone loyal to the Mad King, the new King is Viserys.

Now, if Selmy made some mental gymnastics to believe that Robert, instead of Viserys, was the true King and he had no duty nor vow towards Viserys, then Joffrey and not the Targaryens is the King he's sworn to obey. A King's legitimacy is not dependent on the job he gives to Ser Barristan Selmy. So, if he didn't turn his cloak when he joined Robert, he turned his cloak when he went to look for Viserys (and later Daenerys). You can't have it both ways. The King is King independently of Barristan's feelings on the matter.

[Tommen's Kitten Mittens]

Barristan objected to his dismissal because it required he break his oath to serve until his death.

[juanml82]

Barristan objected to his dismissal because it required he break his oath to serve until his death.

And if Joffrey is the King, then we have two options: either he, as a King, can annul vows or Barristan is still bound by them and must still protect Joffrey, even if it's from outside the Kingsguard.

If, instead, Joffrey is not a King because Robert was not a King and Viserys was King all along, then Barristan had been committing treason since the moment he obeyed him.

[Winterfell is Burning]

his allegiance isn't to a family, but the king. He didn't bend the knee to spare his life, he swore an oath to protect the new king as he did the last. Those who act like the 3 from the ToJ fought just so as not to have to serve Robert are being abit dishonest, no? We don't all have to believe R+L=J, but those 3 didn't stay there and battle it out (to their deaths) with Ned and the Gang just so as not to serve the new king

But, like I pointed out earlier, just the fact that they were there at the ToJ through the entire war without telling the King rather than protecting Aerys who was clearly in danger shows that they were less loyal to him than to Rhaegar, which is treason.

[Starspear]

And if Joffrey is the King, then we have two options: either he, as a King, can annul vows or Barristan is still bound by them and must still protect Joffrey, even if it's from outside the Kingsguard.

If, instead, Joffrey is not a King because Robert was not a King and Viserys was King all along, then Barristan had been committing treason since the moment he obeyed him.

Flawless logic. Well done, juanmi82.

Selmy is one of my favorite characters, but I'm under no illusion, and especially after this thread, that he has his own code.

To be fair, I think he was a true and unconfused KG till the Battle of the Trident. When he woke up from near death, he made the wrong decision (meaning a decision against his own inner self)... and by seeking out out Viserys/Daenerys, sought some form of redemption for that error.

[Starspear]

But, like I pointed out earlier, just the fact that they were there at the ToJ through the entire war without telling the King rather than protecting Aerys who was clearly in danger shows that they were less loyal to him than to Rhaegar, which is treason.

We don't know that. Maybe Aerys gave the order that they remain there.

[Tommen's Kitten Mittens]

1. Of course Joffrey can annul vows. He did. That alone proves that point. Which is why Barristan was totally justified in saying "fuck this," and bailing. His removal from the KG explicitly released Barristan from all his vows to serve as a bodyguard for the Iron Throne.

2. Robert was the legitimate king. He won the throne by conquest. Barristan did not commit treason.

[Winterfell is Burning]

We don't know that. Maybe Aerys gave the order that they remain there.

Oh, gimme a break. Lyanna was there to be hidden from Aerys at least as much as from Robert. The moment he discovered her location, she would be taken to KL to be a hostage- she'd be one against both Robert AND Rhaegar.

[Starspear]

Oh, gimme a break. Lyanna was there to be hidden from Aerys at least as much as from Robert. The moment he discovered her location, she would be taken to KL to be a hostage- she'd be one against both Robert AND Rhaegar.

We don't know yet. It simply is what it is. An unknown.

If for instance, they were following Rhaegar's orders over Aerys' orders... they essentially would be equally guilty in his death for not being there.

In the ToJ showdown dialogue, no KG has qualms about being an oathbreaker or responsible for the King's death. On the contrary, it's reinforced that they made a vow. And a KG's first vow, is to die for the King.

[juanml82]

1. Of course Joffrey can annul vows. He did. That alone proves that point. Which is why Barristan was totally justified in saying "fuck this," and bailing. His removal from the KG explicitly released Barristan from all his vows to serve as a bodyguard for the Iron Throne.

2. Robert was the legitimate king. He won the throne by conquest. Barristan did not commit treason.

If Robert was the legitimate king, so were Joffrey and Tommen, so joining Daenerys is treason