The Controversial Sansa Chapter

[Annara Snow]

What do you want to say? Children can be afraid of certain grown-ups without them being pedophiles. SR is after all afraid of LF. Is he also a pedophile Actually, he is, but you got the point.

SR being afraid of LF is actually a strong argument for the other side - it could mean that SR has good instincts, since LF is probably planning to poison him eventually. So, if he's even more afraid of Lyn Corbray, that could be GRRM trying to hint at something.

[Le Cygne]

What do you want to say? Children can be afraid of certain grown-ups without them being pedophiles. SR is after all afraid of LF. Is he also a pedophile Actually, he is, but you got the point.

I said what I wanted to say.

Sweetrobin seems afraid of Lyn Corbray. It sounds like he's formed this opinion on his own. Of all the lords, he's reacting very strongly to him. And it seems like fear. Which is exactly what I said.

I also quoted his words, and the emphasis. He's saying that he feels safe at the Eyrie, but not with Lyn Corbray there. That's what I'm getting from what he said and how he said it.

"I don’t like Ser Lyn," Robert insisted. "I won't have him here. You send him back down. I never said that he could come. Not here. The Eyrie is impregnable, Mother said."

Sansa thinks this, too:

If even half of what she had heard from Lord Robert’s guards was true, Lyn Corbray was more dangerous than all six of the Lords Declarant put together.

I don't think for a minute that Sansa is going to do anything to hurt Sweetrobin, I think she will protect him, I've said that, oh, maybe three dozen times on the forum.

But I think the author has set up a potential adversary in Lyn Corbray, for both of them.

[Mladen]

SR being afraid of LF is actually a strong argument for the other side - it could mean that SR has good instincts, since LF is probably planning to poison him eventually. So, if he's even more afraid of Lyn Corbray, that could be GRRM trying to hint at something.

No, it actually means that SR is afraid of certain adults, as any kid is. LF most certainly doesn't harbor such feelings for SR, which means that his fear is rooted in something else.

I said what I wanted to say.

Sweetrobin seems afraid of Lyn Corbray. It sounds like he's formed this opinion on his own. Of all the lords, he's reacting very strongly to him. And it seems like fear. Which is exactly what I said.

I also quoted his words, and the emphasis. He's saying that he feels safe at the Eyrie, but not with Lyn Corbray there. That's what I'm getting from what he said and how he said it.

Sansa thinks this, too:

I don't think for a minute that Sansa is going to do anything to hurt Sweetrobin, I think she will protect him, I've said that, oh, maybe three dozen times on the forum.

But I think the author has set up a potential adversary in Lyn Corbray, for both of them.

OK, LeCygne, I didn't accuse you of anything and I am sensible enough to know that you don't believe that Sansa will hurt SR. It just seemed as you are inclined to believe that SR's fear is actually a proof for Lyn being a pedophile, that's all. I understand and don't object that SR is afraid of Lyn.

[Le Cygne]

OK, LeCygne, I didn't accuse you of anything and I am sensible enough to know that you don't believe that Sansa will hurt SR. It just seemed as you are inclined to believe that SR's fear is actually a proof for Lyn being a pedophile, that's all. I understand and don't object that SR is afraid of Lyn.

I'm not ruling anything out, this is a story, and if the author brings things up in a certain way, it's because he wants us to consider these things. Yes, we know Littlefinger is a liar. We also know what he did to Jeyne Poole.

Sweetrobin seems afraid, and he's using the very loaded impregnable word.

Sansa uses the same word wistfully, when she's feeling lonely, after she thinks about kissing the Hound (who she later places in the marriage bed). And there are references throughout the chapter to motherhood (Sweetrobin, who Sansa is mothering, clings to her breasts, Myranda talks about her breasts and breast milk).

So beautiful, Alayne thought, so impregnable. She could not love this place, no matter how she tried.

So there's that, too. I think we are meant to wonder about the use of that word. Did the author spell anything out? No. That's not the way he does it. But I think he's not just talking about an impregnable castle fortress here. (And we know castle is a loaded word, too.)

So here's Sweetrobin again:

"I don’t like Ser Lyn," Robert insisted. "I won't have him here. You send him back down. I never said that he could come. Not here. The Eyrie is impregnable, Mother said."

He also has Sweetrobin say it again, he's afraid of going down the mountain, to the Gates of the Moon:

He sounded as if he were about to cry. "No one can hurt me so long as I stay here. The Eyrie is impregnable."

Where is the author going with this? Who knows, but I don't think we are meant to dismiss anything.

[Annara Snow]

No, it actually means that SR is afraid of certain adults, as any kid is. LF most certainly doesn't harbor such feelings for SR, which means that his fear is rooted in something else.

LF has feelings of wanting to murder SR as a part of his scheming for power, so SR has good reasons to be afraid of him, even if he doesn't know what they are.

[Harry the Hair]

Another theory could be that we get our Sansan reunion, Sandor offers to take her away (dunno where) but Sansa turns him down and opts to stay in LF's clutches instead.... it's not that controversial but it would break a few hearts.

[Mad Madam Mim]

Another theory could be that we get our Sansan reunion, Sandor offers to take her away (dunno where) but Sansa turns him down and opts to stay in LF's clutches instead.... it's not that controversial but it would break a few hearts.

Sansa already regrets not leaving with Sandor the first time. I doubt she would make the same mistake twice. Instead I would see it as Sansa does go with Sandor and that is what upsets those people who have had their heads in the sand about Sansa and her desires. But yeah if she stayed with LF rather than escaping when she has the chance I would be like :stunned:

[1234567]

In terms of Controversial, it could be anything and if there is a new plot development that takes her to the end of the series, it could be centred around that. However, there are only two books to go so and in a lot of cases the characters are building towards something, and while there maybe twists, some things are unlikely (Sansa runs off to join Dany in Essos for example). Therefore whatever it is, is probably likely to have been discussed in relationship to the previous character development and events in the book: so something dire with SR, being involved with the death of another character or doing something that is playing the game but in a much darker way.

Therefore the likely hood is that it is something that will either shock Sansa fans or her detractors. Personally I could see her character becoming greyer and having to make hard choices, as we see that with all the Stark kids.

The main problem (as I see it) is that within fandom there is this idea that Sansa fans place her on some sort of pedestal where she will be good forever, which from my experience is not the case. Most of the time it is Sansa fans arguing that she was not evil to start with but actually a nice character that (god help her) did not get on with the more popular characters of Jon, Arya and Tyrion and acted like an 11 year old girl and not a sassy political mastermind. It is possible that it has been deemed controversial because she becomes a darker character and people are expecting Sansa fans to be shocked by that, when I doubt they will be. It will be the arguments afterwards from the haters along the lines of "see, told you she was evil all along" that may cause the controversy.

[Le Cygne]

GRRM and his editor indicate the chapter belonged in the next book, but the reason appears to be ADWD was too long. He was fine with the chapter there until then. No indication of a change for Sansa, or anything about something to last the rest of the series. I searched his blog and the web.

GRRM:

That Sansa chapter I talked about finishing, for instance. It's still finished, but my editor and I decided it belongs in THE WINDS OF WINTER, not A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, so it's been moved into the next book. Sansa will not appear in DANCE.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/74995.html

His editor (answering this "I understand that George wrote more material than could physically fit in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. Some of it will likely make its way to the next novel, THE WINDS OF WINTER"):

So he voluntarily pulled one big sequence out of the book. I lobbied for another - and it came out, too. People may hold me to blame for this, but I still think it was the right choice. The book is so big and complex and rich and wonderful that adding these two sequences would not have made it any better than it already is.

http://sf-fantasy.suvudu.com/2011/07/dance-interview-with-george-r-r-martin-editor-anne-groell.html

Then Elio said the Sansa chapter he read may be controversial to some (here are recent remarks):

Just to be precise about that Sansa chapter, I did not see it as part of an AFfC manuscript. I also said that I thought it would be controversial, at least in certain quarters of the fandom...

Don't know, I'm afraid. George didn't say and we didn't ask.

And there's also this:

I couldn't possibly comment on what Sophie was referring to, as I don't know much of anything about S5 filming. If you absolutely forced me to guess, no, I don't think so... but that's just a guess.

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2sok6i/spoilers_all_a_summary_of_what_we_know_thus_far/cnrru35

So it seems like he has read ONE Sansa chapter. And he also said this (the "lemon cakes" (Sansa) fan on the podcast is Ashley, who loves SanSan):

"I think lemon cake fans will have some enjoyment from a chapter we read."

http://podcastoficeandfire.com/episode-88-power-couple-ice-fire/

And the author said she'd remember kissing Sandor in a future volume, this was likely in the chapter that was moved to TWOW. GRRM:

"You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom."

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/SF_Targaryens_Valyria_Sansa_Martells_and_More

[Harry the Hair]

I remember reading somewhere (I think it was a post on this forum actually) Sansa was supposed to have a chapter in ADWD but it got moved because Martin and his editors felt that the chapter kicked off a new story arc for her and felt it would be better to have a continuous story line in TWOW than an isolated chapter in ADWD. I'm guessing that that's the Chapter which was deemed controversial.

I was doing a recent reread of her chapters and tried to pay particular attention to her last chapter since it's supposed to close off her current story arc (IF the first one in WOW is meant to start a new one). During her final AFFC chapter a bunch of characters were introduced in to her storyline; there's the three hedge knights one of which is a very shady Ser Sandrich, then we have the introduction of Harry The Heir, we also get a sense that Anya Waynwood is starting to soften up to LF (more so to his gold). Sansa also changes location; she leaves the impregnable castle where Sweetrobin felt safe (LF also hints that the kid won't last much longer). There's also some more gropings from LF, he tells her about an upcoming war of the three Queens (prob Maegaery, Cersei and Arianne/Myrcella) and he tells her that his gift to her is Harry, the Vale and Winterfell. Interestingly enough he didn't share any concrete plans about how she's going to get Winterfell out of this (Harry could very well say he'd rather take a trip down the Moon Door than go and fight in the freezing cold for a ruin of a castle) and by giving her the Vale he essentially says that he never intended to keep it permanently under his patronage. He also claims that Cersei is speeding up her self-destruction and he had hoped to have more time to plant some seeds.

Anyways, get your tinfoil caps ready. :P

My guess is the seeds he wanted to plant were some business ventures that would've made him even richer (most of his power and influence comes from his coin). We know that the Iron Bank is calling in the loans and several noble houses are going to be ruined because of that... who better to befriend then but Petyr Baelish. LF will probably have to leave the Vale then to find a way to increase his income quickly. This leaves Sansa alone with Sweetrobin and Myranda. Ser Sandrcih would probably stay with them since LF wouldn't want some mouse to sniff around his business. Sansa is slowly running out of her hair dye and is starting to use it more sparingly. Ser Sandrich will notice that brown isn't her natural hair color and will most likely try to gauge some information on her account out of the servants (maybe even Sweetrobin and Myranda). He'd probably get an accurate timeline of her arrival and get a whiff of the engagement rumors floating around her. He would then try to get Alayne to slip and reveal her real identity. Some news about the fake hound would be brought and she'll blurt out something like "he'd never do that", or "that can't be Sandor Clegane", or "what would you guys say if I told you, and I shit you not, that that's the guy that kissed me during Blackwater". Ser Sandrich's suspicions confirmed, he starts trying to trick her in to leaving with him. He probably tells her he works for the Manderlys in secret and wants to whisk her away back home. Sansa doesn't fall for that trap and senses something's amiss. Perhaps she has Ser Lothor "remove" the Mad Mouse, which he does, but not before he managed to secretly send out a raven to Varys. And then she has a Sandywank in her bathtub. Tada! Though I wish it would be a Sansan reunion.

[Le Cygne]

Again, I found nothing on that rumor but someone here saying it over and over.

Don't know about all of that, but I think she will likely hear about Sandor.

[Annara Snow]

In terms of Controversial, it could be anything and if there is a new plot development that takes her to the end of the series, it could be centred around that. However, there are only two books to go so and in a lot of cases the characters are building towards something, and while there maybe twists, some things are unlikely (Sansa runs off to join Dany in Essos for example). Therefore whatever it is, is probably likely to have been discussed in relationship to the previous character development and events in the book: so something dire with SR, being involved with the death of another character or doing something that is playing the game but in a much darker way.

Therefore the likely hood is that it is something that will either shock Sansa fans or her detractors. Personally I could see her character becoming greyer and having to make hard choices, as we see that with all the Stark kids.

The main problem (as I see it) is that within fandom there is this idea that Sansa fans place her on some sort of pedestal where she will be good forever, which from my experience is not the case. Most of the time it is Sansa fans arguing that she was not evil to start with but actually a nice character that (god help her) did not get on with the more popular characters of Jon, Arya and Tyrion and acted like an 11 year old girl and not a sassy political mastermind. It is possible that it has been deemed controversial because she becomes a darker character and people are expecting Sansa fans to be shocked by that, when I doubt they will be. It will be the arguments afterwards from the haters along the lines of "see, told you she was evil all along" that may cause the controversy.

The problem is that a part of the fandom has this strange idea that Sansa is now utterly cynical, anti-romantic robot obsessed with power and revenge, who is only interested in mercilessly manipulating and using people, getting political marriages for herself and killing children (possibly after sexually abusing them first) so she could get the throne and kill all those she hates as an evil Ice Queen, muhahaha. :wideeyed: Which is utterly bizarre since it has nothing to do with the Sansa from the actual ASOS and AFFC, who is haunted by the gruesome image of Joffrey dying even though she thinks he deserved to die, feels guilty about Marillion, doesn't think about Cersei or plan any kind of revenge, has one vengeful thought in the entire AFFC and not even an active one ("Give it [Harrenhal] to Walder Frey"), is instead preoccupied with survival, thinks wistfully about her memories of playing with Arya and Bran in Winterfell and misses Jon, obsesses over UnKiss fake memories and has kept Sandor's bloody burnt cloak as remembrance, hates the idea of being married for her claim instead for love, and spends her free time thinking about how great it would be if Mya and Lothor got together, and whether Lothor imagines Mya in silk or leather or naked. (In other words, she's still a psychologically healthy teenage girl, contrary to the fandom's wishes for her to be a 13-year old Mata Hari crossed with female LF, Ramsay Bolton and Satan). But try to point that out to people, and you're immediately a rabid Sansa fan who wants her to be perfectly good and innocent, and who also wants "cheesy love stories". :dunno:

[Harry the Hair]

The problem is that a part of the fandom has this strange idea that Sansa is now utterly cynical, anti-romantic robot

Whhhhaaaat??? But Sansa picks up on Lothor's feelings for Mya, she fabricated a kiss that never happened and thinks about it quite a bit. So she's still a romantic at heart.

[1234567]

<snip>

Well said. :)

[Annara Snow]

Whhhhaaaat??? But Sansa picks up on Lothor's feelings for Mya, she fabricated a kiss that never happened and thinks about it quite a bit. So she's still a romantic at heart.

I know. But some people have very different views:

From this thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/123520-season-5-casting-news-and-speculation-v-8-show-spoilers-book-spoilers-past-op/page-150

Annara - I agree with most of your post, but I personally have a lot of trouble with the assumption that Tyrion/Sansa is a forever unhappy pairing. It was certainly forced and unhappy at first. But things change and several signs indicate that they already started to.

Are Sansa and Tyrion a love match? No.

Are they equally attractive? Not at all.

Would they make a really great power couple? Definitely.

And IMO. Sansa has ditched the romanticism for good and is genuinely interested in power (if only for revenge). She is also far more interested in deeply tortured souls, intelligence, and inner stregth than she was as a child before everything she has experienced.

If anything, it is Tyrion who hates Sansa right now because of the pressure of being ever respectful and kind to her without reciprocity in their brief cohabitation with all that it cost him in terms of his family and position, and because of the sexual repression it led to. Hence the hate-fuck of the Essosi prostitute. Sansa, however, very clearly no longer hates Tyrion. Love him? Probably not, but possible in future depending on future events.

So...I wish this notion in the fandom that Tyrion and Sansa is a forever hate thing would go away. If they do hate each other forever, then frankly there is no hope for Westeros as a whole because hate is predetermined and permanent.

I don't think Sansa will 'love' anyone in the series going forward. Her loves will be lies, people she is just going to use.