trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Yeah, we don't know whether Hizdahr's dad said those things or not, but Dany doesn't either, because she never bothered to look into the individual nature of the people she was crucifying. goes with the look Barristan gave her when the goat herder came by...she's being foolish and just doing stuff to assuage her guilt...sh's never had to face the real consequences of her actions...cuz even in Astapor, she felt justified killing the slavers for killing infants...in yunkai got showered with Myhsa's....now she sees facing the consequences and she cant really handle it...hence, no need to investigate or find the truth...just give in to people's emotional manipulation, she'll do whatever it takes to not feel guilty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janicia Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Was anybody else nervous for Tommen during his speech? Introducing the trial seems to be his first act as king, it was very public, and things were already really tense. Given the things all the other kids do in the series, it wasn't that big of a deal, but in Tommen's life this would surely have been a scary major event and he pulled it off nicely. I'm looking forward to seeing what the show does with the Tommen Cersei dynamic. Because Joffrey was older in the show than in the book, the show gave him more self determination - he was doing things and ordering things done of his on volition that Cersei and Tywin didn't know about or approve of. Tommen, for all that he is a sweet kid, is serious about being king and will be trying to act kingly, which may put him into conflict with people wanting to use him as a puppet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Side note, it's worth pointing out that whether he was lying or not is actually kind of irrelevant. The point is that Dany, in her zeal, had not considered the possibility of the scenario that Hizdahr zo Loraq was presenting her. Whether Hizzy's father, in particular, was actually a good dude doesn't make much difference, because the thrust of that scene in terms of Dany's characterization is that she struggles to conceptualize complex moral issues. Exactly my point. She doesn't know whether he did or he didn't, and now she never will. But she has made powerful enemies because of it and it will trouble her rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ground_control Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Not to bring up a sore and overdone topice, but was it just me or does Meryn F-ing Trant look a little too wimpy to have beaten Syrio, broken wooden sword or not, after all? He's like Rast with armor. Any boy whore with a sword could beat *three* Meryn Trants. Meryn Trant is 1/3 of a bow whore who always wears his brown pants. That was the Hound's point -- *anybody* in [the full plate armor of the KG] with a huge sword could have beaten Syrio (unarmored with a wooden sword). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Rhaego Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Because all slave-owners were terrible people who would crucify children, right? I doubt he was lying, and it's sort of ridiculous to call him that just to absolve Dany of making a mistake she shouldn't have made. If she has the time to sit on the throne and see over 200 people, she should have made the time to judge the Masters fairly. But instead she let emotions take control of her and she acted out of vengeance, and it is going to cost her dearly. I wasn't trying to absolve Dany from a crime. I read so many critcisms of Dany being perfect and morally just and flawless on the show when actually that's not the case at all. That's what I was trying to say. They are showing her flaws. Some of these flaws are being too trustworthy and believing everything (like with Mirri Maz Duur, Xaro on the show, the Green Grace, it always ends up biting her in the ass) and being inexperienced and uneducated in ruling (the thing with gold for bones will create problems later), or white-black world views, were all demonstrated in the last episode. Her darker, cruel side is also not white washed on the show. On the contrary, show Dany is IMO a darker and less sympathetic character than book Dany. The doubts and insecurites she has in the books are completely absent from the show. Example: in the books it is made clear that killing the masters was a rash emotional decision. In the show she is clearly calm and collected and never shows an ounce of doubt. In the books however, when she sees the masters dying on the crosses, she is horrified of what she's done. She is reminded of the atrocities at the Plaza of Punishment in Astapor and realizes that she has created a horror as big. No such concerns are ever presented in the show. Instead, she's standing on the balcony of the great pyramid with on ominous giant banner above her head and listening to the agonized dying screams of the men she just crucified, without being bothered by it, maybe even enjoying it. That is a much darker image of this scene and Dany's character in general than I ever got from the books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam with Hooters Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 :rofl: I agree! All together now: "And now his 'wash has ended." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamba12 Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) Not sure if it was already discussed, but does anyone have a clue who the guy sitting next to loras is? I thought they wouldn't have another Tyrell brother in the show, but his clothing indicates a tyrell connection. In my headcannon, it's Garlan. But i'm pretty sure he's been cut. He's too big of a character to be a featured extra. Edited May 12, 2014 by mamba12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ground_control Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Yeah, we don't know whether Hizdahr's dad said those things or not, but Dany doesn't either, because she never bothered to look into the individual nature of the people she was crucifying. But this is a problem introduced by the show now being expanded on badly by the show. In the books, the slavers themselves choose the 163. If Hizdahr's dad was a "good slaver" but the other slavers chose him anyway, that's on them and Hizdahr should be mad at them. I don't think we have hard numbers for slavers, but in a population the apparent size of Mereen, given that there was some sort of vote, all we need to assume to conclude that the punishment was fair and just is that there were at least 325 (so that a majority would have to include 163 pro-child-crucificiers). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dany4eva Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 They seem to have kept Stannis just as pointless in the show as he is in the books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) They seem to have kept Stannis just as pointless in the show as he is in the books. ooo you might get a lot of hate for that :laugh: Edited May 12, 2014 by trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dany4eva Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 ooo you might get a lot of hate for that :laugh: Oops. Well I was just speaking the truth. I really wish they cut him from the show and found a different way of getting Mel to Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jons nissa Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 The weirdest bit was Sansa's necklace. We saw Littlefinger crush Sansa's necklace, so how the hell did Pycell get it or one that looked exactly like it? In that Rolling Stone interview with GRRM there was this: That killing happens early in this fourth season. The books, of course, are well past the poisoning of King Joffrey. In the books – and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal – the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa's hairnet, so that if anyone did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it. Doesn't it sound like GRRM is hinting there's more to Joffrey's poisoning than we suspect? Last week when Cersei asked Margaery if she still wanted to be Queen I thought, what the fuck? Wouldn't it be a real pisser if Cersei was in on the poisoning? It's a crazy idea I know, but Tyrion says, "if there's one person I'm sure of that didn't kill Joffrey it's Cersei." That's just too good of a line to not be true. Oh the irony! Think about it. Cersei was losing control of Joffrey, and there's also this from the Rolling Stones interview: I don't know if somebody like Jaime or Cersei can be redeemed. Cersei's a great character – she's like Lady Macbeth. Well, redeemed in whose eyes? She'll never be redeemed in the eyes of some. She's a character who's very protective of her children. You can argue, well, does she genuinely love her children, or does she just love them because they're her children? There's certainly a great level of narcissism in Cersei. I would argue that Cersei viewed Joffrey as "hers", and when he wasn't "hers" anymore, she wanted him dead. interesting quotes from grrm. it definitely makes one want to go back and review things to see if perhaps there are other conclusions that one can arrive at but is there really a belief that cersei killed joff because he wasn't hers? that's hard to swallow. i think he's saying she only loves them because she sees them as an extension of herself and if that is the case, she wouldn't stop thinking that because he married another woman. he clearly didn't love anyone but yes, he seemed to be under marg's influence and cersei hated that. but it seems quite a stretch to say she hated it to the point of wanting him dead. but who else would have done it???? They really highlighted Stannis weakness. He is king by right it is his duty. He will beg of no one. Not even the Iron Bank after he was crushed in battle. It's his only play but regardless he won't bow to anyone. Back the one true king or he doesn't need you. Except he needs almost everything at this point. No money. Small army. Few allegiances. interesting analysis of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) But this is a problem introduced by the show now being expanded on badly by the show. In the books, the slavers themselves choose the 163. If Hizdahr's dad was a "good slaver" but the other slavers chose him anyway, that's on them and Hizdahr should be mad at them. I don't think we have hard numbers for slavers, but in a population the apparent size of Mereen, given that there was some sort of vote, all we need to assume to conclude that the punishment was fair and just is that there were at least 325 (so that a majority would have to include 163 pro-child-crucificiers). There's no such reason to assume anything like that. The show didn't do anything 'badly'...they made it just a little more morally ambiguous (it was still a bad decision in the book). It was never fair nor just to pick out 163 people and crucify them as a 'lesson' without doing at least SOME investigation. Even in the book, having a 'vote' doesn't mean that the people who were responsible were the ones who got crucified. The show can't tell us what's in Dany's mind, including her second thoughts when she sees them, so they've given us a situation where we can see her having second thoughts. Dany made a mistake and the show did a great job of highlighting it. Edited May 12, 2014 by sj4iy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 There's no such reason to assume anything like that. The show didn't do anything 'badly'...they made it just a little more morally ambiguous (it was still a bad decision in the book). It was never fair nor just to pick out 163 people and crucify them as a 'lesson' without doing at least SOME investigation. Even in the book, having a 'vote' doesn't mean that the people who were responsible were the ones who got crucified. The show can't tell us what's in Dany's mind, and her second thoughts, so they've given us a situation where we can see her having second thoughts.Dany made a mistake and the show did a great job of highlighting it. well said! :cheers: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obebb Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 What trailers? All the trailers for season 4. Every single one of which shows Oberyn vs the Mountain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueDragon Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Littlefinger is making sure Sansa cannot leave his side as she would immediately be executed, after another manipulated trial. She is a huge piece on his chessboard, but he can't bring her out until things develop further. If she kills him (were she desperate enough and able), she kills most of the proof that she is innocent which might be squeezed out of him. Her potential allies are Varys, Marg and Olenna, but she wouldn't know that. I'm really tired of her always being trapped. What are her alternatives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Littlefinger is making sure Sansa cannot leave his side as she would immediately be executed, after another manipulated trial. She is a huge piece on his chessboard, but he can't bring her out until things develop further. If she kills him (were she desperate enough and able), she kills most of the proof that she is innocent which might be squeezed out of him. Her potential allies are Varys, Marg and Olenna, but she wouldn't know that. I'm really tired of her always being trapped. What are her alternatives? Play the game quietly until the time is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueDragon Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I wasn't trying to absolve Dany from a crime. I read so many critcisms of Dany being perfect and morally just and flawless on the show when actually that's not the case at all. That's what I was trying to say. They are showing her flaws. Some of these flaws are being too trustworthy and believing everything (like with Mirri Maz Duur, Xaro on the show, the Green Grace, it always ends up biting her in the ass) and being inexperienced and uneducated in ruling (the thing with gold for bones will create problems later), or white-black world views, were all demonstrated in the last episode. Her darker, cruel side is also not white washed on the show. On the contrary, show Dany is IMO a darker and less sympathetic character than book Dany. The doubts and insecurites she has in the books are completely absent from the show. Example: in the books it is made clear that killing the masters was a rash emotional decision. In the show she is clearly calm and collected and never shows an ounce of doubt. In the books however, when she sees the masters dying on the crosses, she is horrified of what she's done. She is reminded of the atrocities at the Plaza of Punishment in Astapor and realizes that she has created a horror as big. No such concerns are ever presented in the show. Instead, she's standing on the balcony of the great pyramid with on ominous giant banner above her head and listening to the agonized dying screams of the men she just crucified, without being bothered by it, maybe even enjoying it. That is a much darker image of this scene and Dany's character in general than I ever got from the books. Yes. Yes. Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool of a Book Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) I repeat, to both the Unsullied and to the Book Readers... what moron in the seven kingdoms wouldn't question Petyr's sudden bastard/niece? Maybe this is a book flaw that the show writers are trying to resolve? ETA and for Varys to have intel about the Hound, surely one of his little birds mentioned the girl travelling with the Hound. After all, she personally killed two of the King's sworn. If they noticed the Hound, they noticed the girl. How is noticing Sansa any different? Edited May 12, 2014 by Fool of a Book Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueDragon Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I repeat, to both the Unsullied and to the Book Readers... what moron in the seven kingdoms wouldn't question Petyr's sudden bastard/niece? Maybe this is a book flaw that the show writers are trying to resolve? ETA and for Varys to have intel about the Hound, surely one of his little birds mentioned the girl travelling with the Hound. Which leads me to think that someone in the Vale will use her or support her against Littlefinger. Her cousin is going to do/say what when he discovers his mother is dead? The knights of the Vale are not going to let all of this go without snooping around a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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