Fool of a Book Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Which leads me to think that someone in the Vale will use her or support her against Littlefinger. Her cousin is going to do/say what when he discovers his mother is dead? The knights of the Vale are not going to let all of this go without snooping around a lot. Yup. and we're left with these questions after aDwD. Wonder how the show is going to resolve this in the meantime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I repeat, to both the Unsullied and to the Book Readers... what moron in the seven kingdoms wouldn't question Petyr's sudden bastard/niece? Maybe this is a book flaw that the show writers are trying to resolve? ETA and for Varys to have intel about the Hound, surely one of his little birds mentioned the girl travelling with the Hound. After all, she personally killed two of the King's sworn. If they noticed the Hound, they noticed the girl. How is noticing Sansa any different? The "girl" could be anyone, though, there is no reason why anyone would think it's Arya Stark. Sansa shows up exactly in the most logical place...the Vale, where her last known relative is, along with LF, who had talked up his "relationship" with both Tully daughters for years. And she is going to be more recognizable as a high born niece with red hair than Arya who will appear as some grubby peasant. I agree though it's a bit of a stretch for the book too, that the dyed hair apparently fools everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueDragon Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Dany is obviously in over her head and making mistakes right and left. This is not the same thing as saying she is immoral or going dark although the scenes mentioned above sure emphasize that. Hidzzy is not a reliable narrator. I think the show used him to make a point and give him some sympathy factor for the viewers while demonstrating Dany's mistake. As far as I am concerned, all slavers in a slaving community are guilty. If you don't understand how I could take that position, read Ursula K. LeGuin's "The Ones Who Walk away from Omelas" There is no such thing as a good slave master. Dany obviously has a lot to learn, but she is wise enough to know she is not ready for Westeros. I love the way DWD ended. She learned a lot during that alone time with Drogon. She is going to be different when we see her next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakmanuk Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Tywin going to rat Jorah out? I bet Tywin or Varys, whatever sends a letter to Jorah asking for a report on Daenerys, Daenerys, Grey Worm, Daario or Barristan find it and they think Jorah is a no good liar! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool of a Book Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) The "girl" could be anyone, though, there is no reason why anyone would think it's Arya Stark. Sansa shows up exactly in the most logical place...the Vale, where her last known relative is, along with LF, who had talked up his "relationship" with both Tully daughters for years. And she is going to be more recognizable as a high born niece with red hair than Arya who will appear as some grubby peasant. I agree though it's a bit of a stretch for the book too, that the dyed hair apparently fools everyone. So many people are keeping an eye out for Arya, and a girl of her age and looks is travelling with Sandor and helping him kill those sworn to the King.... Then, even Sandor figures out the logical place for the girls is in the Vale. Is he smarter than Brienne? (tv comparison - why did Brienne think Sansa went to the Wall, when she has a living Aunt in a safe place?). Honestly, never made any sense to my how Arya had so much exposure during her travels with the Hound, and no one ever figured out Sansa might head to the Vale (in the books) especially since several nobles met Petyr's suddenly-existing "bastard." Edited May 12, 2014 by Fool of a Book Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost's Shadow Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Just watched the episode. Laughing at Stannis again. He can't even convince the bank to give him money, Davos must do it. Ridic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 So many people are keeping an eye out for Arya, and a girl of her age and looks is travelling with Sandor and helping him kill those sworn to the King.... Then, even Sandor figures out the logical place for the girls is in the Vale. Is he smarter than Brienne? (tv comparison). Honestly, never made any sense to my how Arya had so much exposure during her travels with the Hound, and no one ever figured out Sansa might head to the Vale (in the books) especially since several nobles met Petyr's suddenly-existing "bastard." Everyone thinks she's dead. No one knew she had a sword or any martial arts training. So, after the first round of searches shortly after she disappeared, people stopped looking for her, she never turned up anywhere, she was very young, so: dead. And, she now dresses like a boy and behaves like a peasant and kills people...nothing that anyone would associate with Arya Stark. So, I am okay with all of that. You're right that it is a plot fail in the books that no one apparently ever bothers to check on the mysterious out of nowhere daughter that LF picks up at exactly the moment Sansa disappears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) If she kills him (were she desperate enough and able), she kills most of the proof that she is innocent which might be squeezed out of him. What "proof", really? And proof is really not of much use to her -- even if she convinced the Lannisters she wasn't involved, they'd still lock her back up in King's Landing and arrange a new marriage for her. She wouldn't ever want to go to them anyway. Her potential allies are Varys, Marg and Olenna, but she wouldn't know that. Margaery, maybe, but Olenna either agreed to give her to Littlefinger in the first place or wanted her sitting next to Tyrion in the prisoner's box (or possibly sitting there solo). She's no friend of Sansa's. So many people are keeping an eye out for Arya, and a girl of her age and looks is travelling with Sandor and helping him kill those sworn to the King.... People are not keeping an eye out for Arya. The common sense opinion is that Arya is dead as a doornail, as Jaime pointed out. Moreover, there are tons of girls Arya's age with approximately Arya's appearance (which is all any of Varys' agents would be going on), all through the continent. There's no earthly reason for anybody who doesn't know who Arya is already to assume that the Hound is traveling with Arya Stark. Edited May 12, 2014 by Colonel Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool of a Book Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) Everyone thinks she's dead. No one knew she had a sword or any martial arts training. So, after the first round of searches shortly after she disappeared, people stopped looking for her, she never turned up anywhere, she was very young, so: dead. And, she now dresses like a boy and behaves like a peasant and kills people...nothing that anyone would associate with Arya Stark. So, I am okay with all of that. You're right that it is a plot fail in the books that no one apparently ever bothers to check on the mysterious out of nowhere daughter that LF picks up at exactly the moment Sansa disappears. So the Hound being spotted slaughtering some King's knights is noted by Varys, but not the fact that a girl around the age and with the looks of Arya (body never found) is with him and participated? Reference here is mostly the TV version and Varys' intel at the Council meeting. Not being snarky, just saying. Whoever witnessed the Hound saying "Fluck the King" surely reported the girl with him. Why would the Hound be travelling with a random girl? So I think Varys knows. And yes, the books never explain how stupid the nobles of the Vale are. re: Sansa/Alayne. Edited May 12, 2014 by Fool of a Book Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueDragon Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 What "proof", really? And proof is really not of much use to her -- even if she convinced the Lannisters she wasn't involved, they'd still lock her back up in King's Landing and arrange a new marriage for her. She wouldn't ever want to go to them anyway. They can't do new marriage as Tyrion escapes and the church is not going along with that. Margaery, maybe, but Olenna either agreed to give her to Littlefinger in the first place or wanted her sitting next to Tyrion in the prisoner's box (or possibly sitting there solo). She's no friend of Sansa's. No way did Olenna want Sansa caught in that way. She is clever, not mean to innocents. This is one of the mysteries of who did what with the poison and when. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) Dany is obviously in over her head and making mistakes right and left. This is not the same thing as saying she is immoral or going dark although the scenes mentioned above sure emphasize that. Hidzzy is not a reliable narrator. I think the show used him to make a point and give him some sympathy factor for the viewers while demonstrating Dany's mistake. Agreed. As far as I am concerned, all slavers in a slaving community are guilty. If you don't understand how I could take that position, read Ursula K. LeGuin's "The Ones Who Walk away from Omelas" There is no such thing as a good slave master. Wrong. Most 'slave masters' are products of their time and environment. That doesn't make them bad people. You can be a good man and a slave master. Actually, you would hope that slaves had good men as masters over bad men. But basically, all nobility owned slaves, therefore making them slave masters. It's basically condemning people for being born rich. Slavery is a terrible institution, but you can't make sweeping statements about any group, no matter who they are or what they do. Dany obviously has a lot to learn, but she is wise enough to know she is not ready for Westeros. I love the way DWD ended. She learned a lot during that alone time with Drogon. She is going to be different when we see her next. Hopefully. Edited May 12, 2014 by sj4iy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Yeah, I think this week's small council meeting, while CLEARLY mostly about Mace Tyrell being made Master Of Ships :D also reintroduced the idea that Jorah was an informant. I like the idea floated earlier in this thread (I think? maybe i read it elsewhere) that Tywin is going to have Varys's birds rat Jorah out to Dany by publishing some old letters :) A story which the honorable and honest Barristan will then confirm when Dany asks him to confirm/deny this, and then the HSS Friendzone is Sunk. :)I was watching the HBO foreshawdowing and there is a brief clip of Ser Friendzone (LOVE that nickname) standing in front of Dany in her throne room. Since that scene hasn't happened yet, I think it is her confronting Jorah about his spying. I will look at the clip again find the exact time of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) So the Hound being spotted slaughtering some King's knights is noted by Varys, but not the fact that a girl around the age and with the looks of Arya (body never found)? Why would Varys' agents in the upper Riverlands have any idea what Arya Stark looks like? It's not like they have photos. The girl isn't noteworthy at all, whereas Clegane is a wanted fugitive. In any event, unless the agent was the innkeeper or his daughter, most likely Varys' agent was merely relaying their account of what happened. And yes, the books never explain how stupid the nobles of the Vale are. re: Sansa/Alayne. It's hinted that Royce, at least, actually does know who she is. Edited May 12, 2014 by Colonel Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool of a Book Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) Why would Varys' agents in the upper Riverlands have any idea what Arya Stark looks like? It's not like they have photos. The girl isn't noteworthy at all, whereas Clegane is a wanted fugitive. It's hinted that Royce, at least, actually does know who she is. Why would they not fully report to Varys what they witnessed? Even if the spies didn't recognize Arya, Varys isn't an idiot. "Oh and there was a girl with the Hound and she looked like this and this is what she did." Varys: "Oh, obviously some random bloodthirsty ten year old girl under the protection of the Hound." <~~I think not Edited May 12, 2014 by Fool of a Book Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueDragon Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Wrong. Most 'slave masters' are products of their time and environment. That doesn't make them bad people. You can be a good man and a slave master. Actually, you would hope that slaves had good men over bad men. But basically, all nobility owned slaves, therefore making them slave masters. It's basically condemning people for being born rich. Please add Toni Morrison's Beloved to your reading list. Being a product of your times does not absolve anyone of anything. Morrison explains carefully in that book how even the 'best' slave master is a cruel human being. One of the great masterpieces of all time that book is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) Why would they not fully report to Varys what they witnessed? Even if the spies didn't recognize Arya, Varys isn't an idiot. Why would Varys assume that a random girl was Arya Stark, even if he got a rough description (and, as I noted, it was most likely a second-hand account anyway)? The fact that she's with the Hound? The Hound has no connection to Arya Stark. No way did Olenna want Sansa caught in that way. She is clever, not mean to innocents. This is one of the mysteries of who did what with the poison and when. GRRM outright stated that Olenna intended for Sansa to take the fall (if need be, in the book; in the show, the different nature of the poison meant that poisoning would be obvious). Edited May 12, 2014 by Colonel Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
It's Not That Littlefinger Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 the best part of the whole episode was just how slumped and relaxed oberyn was during most of the trial Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueDragon Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 GRRM outright stated that Olenna intended for Sansa to take the fall (if need be, in the book; in the show, the different nature of the poison meant that poisoning would be obvious). Could you supply a citation for that assertion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I was watching the HBO foreshawdowing and there is a brief clip of Ser Friendzone (LOVE that nickname) standing in front of Dany in her throne room. Since that scene hasn't happened yet, I think it is her confronting Jorah about his spying. I will look at the clip again find the exact time of it.I found the shot. It is around the 6:15 mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool of a Book Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Why would Varys assume that a random girl was Arya Stark, even if he got a rough description (and, as I noted, it was most likely a second-hand account anyway)? The fact that she's with the Hound? The Hound has no connection to Arya Stark. OK I get it. But why would Varys have a report about the Hound, without the girl with him? Why would Varys NOT speculate the identity of a girl travelling with the ex-kingsguard through the Riverlands, killing those sworn to the King? Why would Varys not assume the girl could be Arya? Who else would be be travelling with, who would gladly kill the King's men? Gregor "Fuck the King" Clegane could easily be presumed to be allied with a Stark, after leaving his position. $$$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.