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[Book Spoilers] EP406 Discussion

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Mace isn't as big of a joke in the books as they make him in the show. For better or worse, the show tends to take the most notable trait of a character and elevates it to define them. Mace is mocked, so everything with him is a joke. Loras and Oberyn bang dudes, so tons of gay stuff. Varys is a eunuch, so bring up his missing dick all the time. Littlefinger is a sinister mastermind, so every time he speaks he sounds like a Bond villain. And so on.



But nonetheless even in the books Mace is barely-competent. He's a pampered product of nobility and is not on the level with the other major characters in the Game of Thrones. However he's competent enough to function administratively and his huge wealth/power nonetheless makes him formidable. But the likes of LF, Varys, Tywin, and so on could run circles around him. Fortunately for Mace, he has Olenna.



And it needs to be said that Randyll is the one who handed Robert that defeat, not Mace.


Edited by HouseHarrison

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Sorry mate, but even in Westeros, you need penis and testicles for producing a child.

Again, I am not denying that what Mace did wasn't smart and that he wasn't playing a game. What I say is that siege aka conquering the castle is a failure. I am not speaking about Mace's loyalties and the moves in the Game, I am speaking about the excruciatingly long wait.

I think we just have a fundamental difference in our definitions of successful sieges/siege warfare then haha. I am of the opinion that it is not always about storming the castle and that waiting is sometimes the right choice. Mace basically Xanides Gambited the whole situation here. If the royalists win in the Riverlands regardless of if Mace storms the castle or continues to starve it out, Mace wins. If Robert wins and the Targs lose, Mace doesn't shed any blood and Mace wins. I know you will say that that is all moreso in the game itself rather than just the siege but from a siege only standpoint, Mace put himself in a position to win, and he won.

Just in the numbers game alone, Stannis lost men and he didn't. The siege, despite the castle not yielding, was effective since the goal of every siege isn't always to capture the castle; it's to take the best course of action. Sometimes a siege is done to prevent the troops/important commanders from linking up with the rest of their forces-both were prevalent here. Only an assault, which would mean conquering the castle, could have been unsuccessful, and since Mace didn't assault it's not possible since I think Mace's goal was to never have to assault.

Ironically Loras never learned that lesson.

I literally have fought hundreds of battles in Medieval II/Westeros TW/LOTR Third Age TW to justify these claims. Yes, I am a giant nerd. Yes, I respect your opinion and understand you will likely disagree. No, I will not debate further. :cool4:

Edited by When Harry met Sansa

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Another book/show change I caught...

Apart from the part about colluding with Sansa to kill Joffrey and the details of how he carried out the murder, most of what TV Shae said about Tyrion was...pretty much true? Book Shae told some pretty ridiculous lies--Tyrion arranged for the death of the boy she was to marry, Tyrion forced her to become a whore, Tyrion threatened to give her to the wildlings if she didn't bed him, Tyrion raped her repeatedly, etc. etc.--but TV Shae..well...

Tyrion hated Joffrey, Cersei and Tywin? True.

Shae was Tyrion's whore? True.

Shae was with a knight in the Lannister army (the "ginger-haired cunt" Bronn mentioned in 1x09) when Bronn broke the knight's arm and brought her to Lord Tyrion? True, except for the part about the arm, and that could be true, since we never got the details of how Bronn took Shae away from the "ginger-haired cunt" she was with.

He told her "I want you to fuck me like it's my last night in this world"? True.

Shae did everything he wanted, and whatever he told her to do? True.

Shae was his property? Pretty much.

Shae would wait in his chambers for hours so he could have sex with her when he was bored? True, from what we've seen.

Tyrion ordered her to call him "My lion"? This one's false.

Shae told him "I am yours and you are mine"? True.

Tyrion only wanted Sansa and not Shae after marrying Sansa? Well, from Shae's perspective, Tyrion lost all interest in having sex with her after marrying Sansa, so I can see why she might think that.

Sansa wouldn't let Tyrion into her bed? Well, I wouldn't put it that way, but true.

the thing she lied about is being unwilling about all of this.

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Mace isn't as big of a joke in the books as they make him in the show. For better or worse, the show tends to take the most notable trait of a character and elevates it to define them. Mace is mocked, so everything with him is a joke. Loras and Oberyn bang dudes, so tons of gay stuff. Varys is a eunuch, so bring up his missing dick all the time. Littlefinger is a sinister mastermind, so every time he speaks he sounds like a Bond villain. And so on.

Yeah, I agree, though sometimes it's the opposite. They take away the most colorful or notable trait of a character and make them look bland, like Mance being Generic Wildling Leader, Tormund being Generic Wildling Sergeant, Daario being Generic Handsome Sellsword, and Asha/Yara losing most of her sassy attitude

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How the heck did Varys find "residue" of the strangler potion on the stones in Sansa's necklace? Did he have a microscope or other sophisticated lab equipment, or does the strangler potion have a particular color?


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How the heck did Varys find "residue" of the strangler potion on the stones in Sansa's necklace? Did he have a microscope or other sophisticated lab equipment, or does the strangler potion have a particular color?

No clue; I chalked it up to compelling, damning writing for Varys to keep the unsullied in the dark. Loved the "have you forgotten me?" exchange and foreshadowing. As opposed to LF, who even the unsullied should know clearly wanted Tyrion removed from the game after having him imprisoned twice with his life on the line, this should be a powerful turn for them and given the foreshadowing we're already getting about the later books might give us something cool with Aegon/Dany this season before Tyrion departs.

Edited by When Harry met Sansa

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I think we just have a fundamental difference in our definitions of successful sieges/siege warfare then haha. I am of the opinion that it is not always about storming the castle and that waiting is sometimes the right choice. Mace basically Xanides Gambited the whole situation here. If the royalists win in the Riverlands regardless of if Mace storms the castle or continues to starve it out, Mace wins. If Robert wins and the Targs lose, Mace doesn't shed any blood and Mace wins. I know you will say that that is all moreso in the game itself rather than just the siege but from a siege only standpoint, Mace put himself in a position to win, and he won.

Just in the numbers game alone, Stannis lost men and he didn't. The siege, despite the castle not yielding, was effective since the goal of every siege isn't always to capture the castle; it's to take the best course of action. Sometimes a siege is done to prevent the troops/important commanders from linking up with the rest of their forces-both were prevalent here. Only an assault, which would mean conquering the castle, could have been unsuccessful, and since Mace didn't assault it's not possible since I think Mace's goal was to never have to assault.

Ironically Loras never learned that lesson.

I literally have fought hundreds of battles in Medieval II/Westeros TW/LOTR Third Age TW to justify these claims. Yes, I am a giant nerd. Yes, I respect your opinion and understand you will likely disagree. No, I will not debate further. :cool4:

Ever heard of an expression "losing a battle, winning the war"? That was what happened here. This started as argument of how Mace's siege was successful. No, it wasn't. But, it didn't need to be successful if he was playing other game. We are arguing basically the same thing, only you look into boarder picture, and I dealt with the siege alone.

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How the heck did Varys find "residue" of the strangler potion on the stones in Sansa's necklace? Did he have a microscope or other sophisticated lab equipment, or does the strangler potion have a particular color?

You notice that Boros Blount has gone missing?

....yeah.

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  • The only thing that annoyed me was the continually close-ups of Margaery. I get that she's an established actress and she has to be given screen time, but it felt odd to me to focus on her so much.

Margaery is the only person in the throne room (apart from Varys probably) who knows for a fact that Tyrion is innocent. She is getting a good dose of how justice works in Kings Landing, which may be significant to her later.

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Speaking of Margaery, was the guy standing next to her and Loras of any importance ?



It did seem odd to me that he was such in a high position during the trial, and yet completely unknown.



Could it be a blink from D&D to what Garlan might have looked like if he was actually in the show ?


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Oh yeah the Hound drop. I wonder if thats actually the BWB with his helm....

Didn't they mention 5 soldiers dead in a bar? I was sure they were referring to the fight in episode 1, but then it is possible its BWB (though seems to soon). FYI I think the Hound gets his wound next week.

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It's almost like horses are being changed mid stream. I know the Asha/Yara was big and unexpected to end last season but to hangs us out for 'What about your brother." " He s dead" was lame. I love a good fight , but that storyline to replace Kingsmoot? Now is she going to run around the north til Stannis shows, maybe Iron Born could head down to the Twins beat up the Freys for what they did to the King in the North.


Give me an hour of Tyrion and Jon and I'll be happy.


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How could so many people be confused as to which bones those were? There was a freaking goat head, huge horns, and some fur! I'm assuming by the end of the season, another person will come forth with bones, Dany will assume it is another goat, and it will be revealed to be the man's child.


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It's almost like horses are being changed mid stream. I know the Asha/Yara was big and unexpected to end last season but to hangs us out for 'What about your brother." " He s dead" was lame. I love a good fight , but that storyline to replace Kingsmoot? Now is she going to run around the north til Stannis shows, maybe Iron Born could head down to the Twins beat up the Freys for what they did to the King in the North.

Give me an hour of Tyrion and Jon and I'll be happy.

On the contrary, I think that storyline will lead to the Kingsmoot.

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I remember people wondering in the preview thread whether we would see Tywin eat because of the poison theory. So we got a scene of him CLEARLY eating, drinking and swallowing. Maybe we will get proof the Red Viper got his revenge afterall?


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You notice that Boros Blount has gone missing?

....yeah.

looooool new headcanon!

Didn't they mention 5 soldiers dead in a bar? I was sure they were referring to the fight in episode 1, but then it is possible its BWB (though seems to soon). FYI I think the Hound gets his wound next week.

Hooo yeah...

On the contrary, I think that storyline will lead to the Kingsmoot.

I agree with that.

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