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[Book Spoilers] EP406 Discussion

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I don't think Alfie's going down the Christian Bale path anytime soon, though I'm not certain Reek should have such huge biceps. Someone should tell him to ease up on the weights...

I'd find it exaggerated for an actor to go through negative physical changes for a TV show - especially when the show doesn't even bother to highlight the Lannister's hair...

My understanding is that with movies there's a lot more money involved, not just for the actor to make their loss worth it; the whole production has a gain if a famous name actor takes a certain part rather than a no-name with more appropriate physique.

Edited by 7th-key

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Haha in from South Shields mate but no one would know where that is lol

fair point, although cheryl cole is a regular on american TV now like

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Hello, first post, be gentle with me...


I've not read the books (yet), so my ignorance of them must be taken into account.


I wanted to offer a few observations and ideas about the Yara Flees From Dogs scene.


First, this is a classic Ramsay trope, setting his hounds on a woman, even down to giving her a head start. Presumably he doesn't need the hounds to win, as Yara and co. are probably heavily outnumbered, but he just can't resist.


Secondly, even before the Mr. Burns moment, Yara is already negotiating, offering Theon's release as a price for leaving without further deaths. Given that she is Iron Born, accustomed to "paying the iron price", she is already calculating that she will lose a straight up fight here. Otherwise she would still be fighting and just take Theon by force. This calculation is supported by the whole stealth mode of the raid.


So, in her position it looks like 1. she will lose a fight if she stays. 2. Theon/Reek is far enough gone as to no longer be her brother, even if she wins (and she knows that she will not win, cannot emphasise that enough).


So she can die for nothing, and have more men die for nothing, or leave.


The fact that their current foe will likely flay torture and dismember them rather than just kill may also colour the choices somewhat.


Thus far the logic of her actions is impeccable.


It's not that she is running from the dogs, per se. They do make an already un-winnable fight even more one sided, but Ramsay's fondness for hunting fleeing women with dogs gives her a shot at escaping, and she takes it.



Where I do feel it's a bit odd is to not even try to kill Ramsay with an axe throw, just for revenge.


Granted we've already seen he's probably capable enough a fighter to evade or parry such an attempt, and maybe she reasons if he is sadist enough to give them a head start she will take advantage of that and use it to escape.


I'll have to re-watch to see if I'm reading the scene correctly.



As others have pointed out, the show! writers were painted into a bit of a corner with her mission which could neither rescue Theon nor result in Yara or Ramsay getting killed, and I think given the constraints of sharing an episode with The Trial the writer did reasonably well to exposit that she tried, saw Theon's transformation/Stockholm Syndrome/brainwashing, and decided to write him off.



Not the greatest scene in the whole thing, but it got us from A to B while staying reasonably true to what we know of the characters and culture at this point.


Edited by Tomislav

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I didn't correct his/her grammar.

Spelling mistakes, grammar mistakes, intended purpose is the same. You clearly were correcting another member's errors in writing. I wasn't picking on you, just politely pointing out the board rules. Following them makes for better civility. You might want to check them out here:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/5-board-style-guide/

2. Spell as well as you can.

No-one, especially non-native English speakers, should be mocked for bad spelling,….

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Hello, first post, be gentle with me...

I've not read the books (yet), so my ignorance of them must be taken into account.

I wanted to offer a few observations and ideas about the Yara Flees From Dogs scene.

First, this is a classic Ramsay trope, setting his hounds on a woman, even down to giving her a head start. Presumably he doesn't need the hounds to win, as Yara and co. are probably heavily outnumbered, but he just can't resist.

Secondly, even before the Mr. Burns moment, Yara is already negotiating, offering Theon's release as a price for leaving without further deaths. Given that she is Iron Born, accustomed to "paying the iron price", she is already calculating that she will lose a straight up fight here. Otherwise she would still be fighting and just take Theon by force. This calculation is supported by the whole stealth mode of the raid.

So, in her position it looks like 1. she will lose a fight if she stays. 2. Theon/Reek is far enough gone as to no longer be her brother, even if she wins (and she knows that she will not win, cannot emphasise that enough).

So she can die for nothing, and have more men die for nothing, or leave.

The fact that their current foe will likely flay torture and dismember them rather than just kill may also colour the choices somewhat.

Thus far the logic of her actions is impeccable.

It's not that she is running from the dogs, per se. They do make an already un-winnable fight even more one sided, but Ramsay's fondness for hunting fleeing women with dogs gives her a shot at escaping, and she takes it.

Where I do feel it's a bit odd is to not even try to kill Ramsay with an axe throw, just for revenge.

Granted we've already seen he's probably capable enough a fighter to evade or parry such an attempt, and maybe she reasons if he is sadist enough to give them a head start she will take advantage of that and use it to escape.

I'll have to re-watch to see if I'm reading the scene correctly.

As others have pointed out, the show! writers were painted into a bit of a corner with her mission which could neither rescue Theon nor result in Yara or Ramsay getting killed, and I think given the constraints of sharing an episode with The Trial the writer did reasonably well to exposit that she tried, saw Theon's transformation/Stockholm Syndrome/brainwashing, and decided to write him off.

Not the greatest scene in the whole thing, but it got us from A to B while staying reasonably true to what we know of the characters and culture at this point.

I would've loved seeing Yara throw her axe. I know she can't kill Ramsay, but maybe she could have thrown it at one of his guards?

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Spelling mistakes, grammar mistakes, intended purpose is the same. You clearly were correcting another member's errors in writing. I wasn't picking on you, just politely pointing out the board rules. Following them makes for better civility. You might want to check them out here:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/5-board-style-guide/

Thank you. Duly noted.

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I'd find it exaggerated for an actor to go through negative physical changes for a TV show - especially when the show doesn't even bother to highlight the Lannister's hair...

My understanding is that with movies there's a lot more money involved, not just for the actor to make their loss worth it; the whole production has a gain if a famous name actor takes a certain part rather than a no-name with more appropriate physique.

See The Normal Heart.

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Not much of anywhere else to put this, but they must be really trying to make up to Julian Glover for last season!

He has had as much on screen time as the first season, well almost.

Edited by boojam

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I would've loved seeing Yara throw her axe. I know she can't kill Ramsay, but maybe she could have thrown it at one of his guards?

The people I watched that episode with were screaming, "He's not wearing any armor! Throw something at him!!" It was kind of amusing actually.

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I would've loved seeing Yara throw her axe. I know she can't kill Ramsay, but maybe she could have thrown it at one of his guards?

We see her kill 4 guys with her axe.

Two of them during the Dog Cage Room fight.

But I think that scene was re-edited before airing.

Yet as far as I can tell she and the Iron Born left, 3 I think, could have killed all the dogs and Ramsay too.

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Does anyone else kind of have problems with the fact that they turned Mace, the man who successfully laid siege to the second most powerful house in Westeros, into a fat moron?

I second this.

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I thought Ramsay had no formal weapons training other than Reek. How could he have gotten an upper hand on a handpicked elite ironborn raiding party? The iron born are as twisted as Ramsay, so i dont see his natural viscousness giving him an advantage either.


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Anyone else irritated by the fact that Stannis, who is supposed to be bankrupt, sail into Braavos with a ship sporting custom made Flaming Heart Crowned Stag sails?


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Anyone else irritated by the fact that Stannis, who is supposed to be bankrupt, sail into Braavos with a ship sporting custom made Flaming Heart Crowned Stag sails?

Well even the show implies Stannis did have a rear guard and modest resources left after Blackwater.

In fact I don't think it's mentioned in the book how many ships he got away with, I guess since Salladhor and his 30 or so ships , which did not sail into Blackwater, helped out?

So that he would have at least one good ship is plausible.

............................................................

In the book , I knew Stannis was his way, but between this decision to got to the Wall and his arrival at Castle Black, ta da!

... as far as I remember, George does not tell us where he got the reinforcements in ships and men, it's still a total mystery to me. Between Storm of Swords Davos VI and Jon X when Stannis rides to the rescue we find out nothing about how Stannis recovered from the huge losses at Blackwater. I don't even remember Salladhor being hired as an ally.

David and Dan have at least solved that problem, hiring ships is one thing, with most of your vassals dead how the hell does he augment his 4000 troops? We know they did not not hire the Golden Company. Other sell swords? Maybe we will find out.

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Stannis recieves no reinforcements or extra ships in the books. Salladhor Saan doesn't abandon him until after the Battle at Castle.Black, and Stannis takes only around 1500 North with him, transported by Salla, the majority of men remaining to him after the Blackwater. He leaves small garrisons to hold Dragonstone and Storm's End.

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