Yet another balanced review of Stannis [Book Spoilers]

[C.T. Phipps]

You could also see this as a metaphor for foreclosure.

The Iron Bank sees Tywin's house in ruins and predicts they will default on their loans, so they give Stannis enough time to build his army. With Stannis as a threat, the Lannisters will be forced to pay their debts immediately perhaps in some other form of capital.

Say, I dunno, large territories donated to their Iron Bank or promises of their revenues or a city or something. The Catholic Church had the former done to them but mostly people had acreditions for other reasons.

[jons nissa]

I can't help but think D&D are going to twist his arrival at the Wall and put him in conflict with Jon...like it will be Mel and Stannis invading the Wall and imposing their own kind of tyranny up there until Jon "tricks" Stannis into attacking Winterfell (they'll probably skip Moat Caitlin)

stannis did impose his own tyranny up there. i doubt that jon will need to trick stannis into attacking winterfell. he only does it to create momentum in his campaign and win northern loyalty not because he was concerned about their cause.

I am not enjoying how they've restructured ASOS when it comes to Stannis. He only appears in three chapters on Dragonstone, which they somehow managed to severely cut, and each chapter, I feel, has a lot of powerful scenes and lines that tell you more about Stannis than any other series of chapters.

"Then we will make new lords."

"I chose blood over honour."

"I never bested him at anything. The Lord of Light should have made Robert his champion. Why me?"

"I know the cost! ... I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning... burning, Davos."

"Swear it on your life, for I promise, you shall die by inches if you lie."

i agree, these lines create a sense of stannis that the show has failed to replicate but many of the unsullied did pick up on the overall tone of the character.

[Thelastactionhero]

stannis did impose his own tyranny up there. i doubt that jon will need to trick stannis into attacking winterfell. he only does it to create momentum in his campaign and win northern loyalty not because he was concerned about their cause.

Stannis and Jon butted heads, but they ultimately reached compromises with one another through relatively even handed dialogues. It's more than a little obvious that Jon comes to respect and sympathize with Stannis following his depature from the Wall, despite them getting off to a bit of a rocky start. Unfortunately, a lot of Jon's real feelings about Stannis are internal, so the showrunners definitely have a prime excuse to take the nuance out of their dynamic in favor of one that is more overtly negative. I'm started to regain a little faith in the showrunners abilities after last episode though, so we'll have to wait and see.

[juanml82]

That's the thing though, Tywin CAN'T pay the Iron Bank. House Lannister is running on empty and the Crown is equally in massive debt due to Littlefinger's borrowing from...the Iron Bank. The Iron Bank may not know about the former but they certainly know about the latter.

Tywin knows they have to pay the Iron Bank but they wouldn't keep bringing up how they need to pay it if they were secure in their ability to conjure enough gold to handle it. Gold which they don't have.

The Iron Bank clearly doesn't think House Lannister will pay its debts, which is why they decide to support Stannis.

I admit, it'd be clearer if we had seen Tywin miss a few payments.

Tywins expects the Tyrells would refinance at least part of the debt with the IB, since they are know invested in the Iron Throne. A fact the Iron Banks representatives forget when confronted with Master Salesman Davos.

The catch is that, should the loan they've given Stannis is made public knowledge, the Iron Throne has every reason to default on them and money itself is not going to make Stannis win the war. In the books, the IB loan is a desperate gamble. Here it's a tricky business which could tarnish their very important reputation. It's not just that the Iron Bank will get its due no matter what. It's that if you borrow from the IB and the IB feels you can not pay, they will back your enemies no matter how hard you try to pay.

[jons nissa]

Stannis and Jon butted heads, but they ultimately reached compromises with one another through relatively even handed dialogues. It's more than a little obvious that Jon comes to respect and sympathize with Stannis following his depature from the Wall, despite them getting off to a bit of a rocky start. Unfortunately, a lot of Jon's real feelings about Stannis are internal, so the showrunners definitely have a prime excuse to take the nuance out of their dynamic in favor of one that is more overtly negative. I'm started to regain a little faith in the showrunners abilities after last episode though, so we'll have to wait and see.

and this is what we will see but anticipating the buddy show of jon and stannis is wrong. it was a grudging respect on both their parts.

[Thelastactionhero]

and this is what we will see but anticipating the buddy show of jon and stannis. it was a grudging respect on both their parts.

Definitely a grudging respect but that's what makes it so interesting for me. It's actually way more interesting than them overtly liking one another. I just think it would be an easy thing to skew on television, so I'm really hoping they handle that dynamic with a bit of care.

[Sun]

That's the thing though, Tywin CAN'T pay the Iron Bank. House Lannister is running on empty and the Crown is equally in massive debt due to Littlefinger's borrowing from...the Iron Bank. The Iron Bank may not know about the former but they certainly know about the latter.

Tywin knows they have to pay the Iron Bank but they wouldn't keep bringing up how they need to pay it if they were secure in their ability to conjure enough gold to handle it. Gold which they don't have.

The Iron Bank clearly doesn't think House Lannister will pay its debts, which is why they decide to support Stannis.

I admit, it'd be clearer if we had seen Tywin miss a few payments.

The IB don't know that. And Tywin never said they won't pay, they said they have to and they will. The IT will have to find a way to pay. That way is not by making more wars.

[FalseKnight]

"Agency agency whitewashing character assassination butchery agency."

You people win the buzzword awards.

POST OF THE YEAR!

Someone define "agency".

[Thelastactionhero]

Here's the inside the episode: http://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/inside#/game-of-thrones/episodes/4/36-the-laws-of-gods-and-men/video/inside-the-episode.html/eNrjcmbOYM7XLMtMSc13zEvMqSzJTHbOzytJrShRz89JgQkFJKan+iXmpjIXcjIysoGgdGJpSX5BTmKlbUlRaSoAUBcXOA==

Although they talk more about the Iron Bank than Stannis, this is quite possibly the most even handed they've been towards Team Dragonstone ever. When they talk like this, it gives me hope they'll be able to handle him better going forward, and that they aren't quite as clueless as some of us think they are.

[Mark the Red]

It doesn't work. By loaning money to Stannis, you prolong the war, further bleeding the IT and the Lannister's coffers, thus jeopardizing their own payments.

Also, why risk betting on an unknown quantity like Stannis over a known quantity like Tywin, a man with whom the IB has dealt for years, since the time of the Mad King? It's a gigantic risk for the IB to take. Especially considering the Tyrell alliance and the state of Stannis' affairs at the moment, the absence of backing for him from the other houses of Westeros, and his own lack of a male heir.

It does not make sense for any bank to take such a risk. They've made a heavy bet on the Lannisters keeping the IT, a bet that's being honored by a man they know, why risk it by backing Stannis and having Tywin find out? Why risk it by prolonging the war and weakening the Lannister's hold on the IT?

It doesn't make sense.

Once Cersie reneges on the loan, then it makes perfect sense for the IB to turn to Stannis, not before.

We don't know how much the IB loaned to Stannis for us to say this . It is not uncommon for banks to hedge their bets. Keep funding the Lannisters say (90%) but hedging it by giving Stannis a (10%) one time loan just in case Davos is right.

I suspect that is what the IB did. Smart move if so. The relatively small loan to Stannis serves many purposes and will pay off huge if Davos is right.

The point I am trying to make is are we totally sure that the IB is strictly an either / or lending institution? Why can't they do both?

[Guard of the Rainking]

Too bad, that they're not doing the refusal and cliffhanger thing, but it's still cool. If I understood it right Stannis has 31 ships and 4 000 men at Dragonstone and Salla's fleet + one of his ships and whatever amount of sellswords he bought at Braavos. That's quite at lot compared to what Stannis had in the books against Mance, but then again Mance has an army of 100 000 in the show. I don't see much problem with this episode's Stannis. He didn't beg which was the most important part.

[~DarkHorse~]

I don't understand why they aren't hyping Stannis up, let alone not making his likable/admirable traits in the books show. He is one of the most interesting characters with his dry humour, determination (can stand on his own bloody feet without Mel and Davos) and his conflict over his duty. He is also one of the main players left in the game and rightful King.

He was fine in Season 2 but Season 3 screwed him over big style and he doesn't seem to be improving that much.

Personally, Stannis is the character that cracks me up the most with his dry humour but the show has missed out half of his good quotes already. I can only hope they remember to give him some wit during his Wall/Jon scenes.

He is pretty much the third wheel of his own story.

Although, hats off to Stephen Dillane, he is an amazing actor with great facial expressions. I just wish they would give him more to work with.

I honestly hate ranting about this, it gets repetitive and whiny but I do genuinely feel cheated for the Unsullied viewers who give 'zero shits' about him and genuinely see him as a Dick. He is much more complex than that!

[Thelastactionhero]

I don't understand why they aren't hyping Stannis up, let alone not making his likable/admirable traits in the books show. He is one of the most interesting characters with his dry humour, determination (can stand on his own bloody feet without Mel and Davos) and his conflict over his duty. He is also one of the main players left in the game and rightful King.

He was fine in Season 2 but Season 3 screwed him over big style and he doesn't seem to be improving that much.

Personally, Stannis is the character that cracks me up the most with his dry humour but the show has missed out half of his good quotes already. I can only hope they remember to give him some wit during his Wall/Jon scenes.

He is pretty much the third wheel of his own story.

Although, hats off to Stephen Dillane, he is an amazing actor with great facial expressions. I just wish they would give him more to work with.

I honestly hate ranting about this, it gets repetitive and whiny but I do genuinely feel cheated for the Unsullied viewers who give 'zero shits' about him and genuinely see him as a Dick. He is much more complex than that!

It's mind boggling to almost every fan of the character. But there's still time! I'm trying not to get too excited, since I got let down so much last season, but I really think we might start seeing more of those likeable qualities coming out soon, considering what a large role he plays in aDwD and the rest of SoS.

[Guard of the Rainking]

I don't understand why they aren't hyping Stannis up, let alone not making his likable/admirable traits in the books show. He is one of the most interesting characters with his dry humour, determination (can stand on his own bloody feet without Mel and Davos) and his conflict over his duty. He is also one of the main players left in the game and rightful King.

He was fine in Season 2 but Season 3 screwed him over big style and he doesn't seem to be improving that much.

Personally, Stannis is the character that cracks me up the most with his dry humour but the show has missed out half of his good quotes already. I can only hope they remember to give him some wit during his Wall/Jon scenes.

He is pretty much the third wheel of his own story.

Although, hats off to Stephen Dillane, he is an amazing actor with great facial expressions. I just wish they would give him more to work with.

I honestly hate ranting about this, it gets repetitive and whiny but I do genuinely feel cheated for the Unsullied viewers who give 'zero shits' about him and genuinely see him as a Dick. He is much more complex than that!

As many have speculated they might be trying to play him as this insignificant boring character until he gets to the Wall. I've read many reviews of episode 6 now, and many of the unsullied reviewers call him a wooden character or don't even mention him. After he has saved the Wall and offered Jon Winterfell I doubt that many will disqualify him as a wooden character. If we retrospectively look at his scenes this season they're actually pretty likable. E2: his face during the burning ceremony, "I hate a good many things, but I suffer them all the same", "She's my daughter. You will not strike her." E3: "They don't have enough men between them to raid a pantry", "The Golden Company?!" (Stannis has almost no money and Davos' solution is to hire the most expensive sellsword company lol) E6: "More than any man living" and Davos' speech. There's a lot to like even in the S3: scenes like E5 family interaction and E8 Davos jail talk.

[Teren_Kanan]

I don't understand why they aren't hyping Stannis up, let alone not making his likable/admirable traits in the books show. He is one of the most interesting characters with his dry humour, determination (can stand on his own bloody feet without Mel and Davos) and his conflict over his duty. He is also one of the main players left in the game and rightful King.

He was fine in Season 2 but Season 3 screwed him over big style and he doesn't seem to be improving that much.

Personally, Stannis is the character that cracks me up the most with his dry humour but the show has missed out half of his good quotes already. I can only hope they remember to give him some wit during his Wall/Jon scenes.

He is pretty much the third wheel of his own story.

Although, hats off to Stephen Dillane, he is an amazing actor with great facial expressions. I just wish they would give him more to work with.

I honestly hate ranting about this, it gets repetitive and whiny but I do genuinely feel cheated for the Unsullied viewers who give 'zero shits' about him and genuinely see him as a Dick. He is much more complex than that!

See I'm not sure I really agree with this. For myself and a lot of other book readers I speak with, Stannis was not much liked until the end of ASOS. He came off as a entitled "Mine by Rights!" whiner, and a bit of a religious zealot type blindly following this Melisandre chick who most had quite a few doubts about to begin with. The whole burning of Idols and what not, along with burning people (including relatives), made him seem.. pretty unlikeable.

I think show watchers (Unsullied) more or less have the correct feelings towards Stannis, at least in regards to how they should currently view him.

Everything changes when Stannis saves the wall. He went from generally unliked, to amiable. Then from Amiable to fan favorite in ADWD. He's now one of my favorite people and I think this is the case for plenty of readers. Imo the bias of their current Stannis views kind of blind them when watching the show.

Maybe that's just me, or maybe the Show runners really are just going to whiff on his character, but as things currently are, there is certainly time to bring him around in a very similar fashion to how we experienced him in the books.

[Guard of the Rainking]

Here's a thought. Maybe we'll get a scene of Stannis and Davos trying to get the Golden Company. We saw gilded skulls in one of the production videos and Davos already mentioned them. Also Team Dragonstone isn't in a goof cliffhanger stage now, and the Wall arrival would come right out of the left field, and I doubt many of the everyday Unsullied remember the S3E10 moment, so it needs to referenced at least ones before E9 IMO.

[Thelastactionhero]

See I'm not sure I really agree with this. For myself and a lot of other book readers I speak with, Stannis was not much liked until the end of ASOS. He came off as a entitled "Mine by Rights!" whiner, and a bit of a religious zealot type blindly following this Melisandre chick who most had quite a few doubts about to begin with. The whole burning of Idols and what not, along with burning people (including relatives), made him seem.. pretty unlikeable.

I think show watchers (Unsullied) more or less have the correct feelings towards Stannis, at least in regards to how they should currently view him.

Everything changes when Stannis saves the wall. He went from generally unliked, to amiable. Then from Amiable to fan favorite in ADWD. He's now one of my favorite people and I think this is the case for plenty of readers. Imo the bias of their current Stannis views kind of blind them when watching the show.

Maybe that's just me, or maybe the Show runners really are just going to whiff on his character, but as things currently are, there is certainly time to bring him around in a very similar fashion to how we experienced him in the books.

The flipside of this is that while Stannis wasn't a fan favorite before he went north, the character had also never done anything quite as despicable as to make his transformation into a likeable character impossible. I can't say the same for the show. The burnings in the books are brutal, and it's a definite low point for his character, but changing the context of Alester Florent's execution just to make him look like an evil fanatic really crossed the line (burning the guy who wants to send your daughter off to your enemies so he can get his keep back is pretty legitimate causes for execution, though not neccessarily being burned alive). Season 3 takes his failings, simplifies them, and makes him look way worse and way more powerless than he ever was in the novels. His relationship with Mel is more evenhanded there, whereas here he really feels like her puppet most of the time. This is why so many of us are concerned, because to balance out how terrible they've made him look, they need to set him on a proper redemption arc where we see Stannis stand on his own two feet. This may or may not happen. If it does, these scenes will be more effective precisely because of how bad they've made him look previously, but if not, then they'll just be guilty of cheapening a great character for no reason. For what it's worth, I hope you're right, because all I want is for the show to continue to uphold the same high level of quality and professionalism I'd come to expect from seasons 1 and 2. This latest episode definitely has my hopes for a proper portrayal of Stannis rekindled.

[Sun]

We don't know how much the IB loaned to Stannis for us to say this . It is not uncommon for banks to hedge their bets. Keep funding the Lannisters say (90%) but hedging it by giving Stannis a (10%) one time loan just in case Davos is right.

I suspect that is what the IB did. Smart move if so. The relatively small loan to Stannis serves many purposes and will pay off huge if Davos is right.

The point I am trying to make is are we totally sure that the IB is strictly an either / or lending institution? Why can't they do both?

Banks don't gamble, they hedge to limit their loss not to increase their profit.

Why needlessly antagonize the IT, along with 2 of the most powerful families in Westeros, now? After it has won the war? Surely the time for the IB to hedge its bets was while the war was raging full swing and the outcome was still in question?

And Stannis is not what I would call a hedge, certainly not at this juncture in the storyline. He's a huge gamble, with down far greater, and more likely than the up.

The IB, if indeed a proper bank, should have done its risk assessment a long time ago, at the beginning of the war, and should have continued to do so all through. Nothing Davos told them is new information. It should not sway them. And as a risk, in his present state, Stannis is not worth taking. Let's not forget, if Stannis should for any reason whatsoever happen to die, his claim dies with him. And There will be no one to repay the bank its loan.

We can argue this all day, and I still say the loan does not make sense. Simply put, Stannis is not a good credit risk at this juncture, and the IB has no incentive, or purpose, of its own to induce it to gamble on him.

[Pod The Impaler]

In the show the IB backing Stannis doesn't make sense whichever way you slice it. It's just not sound business. You do not back the weaker side and in doing so risk your existing relationship with the stronger side without a powerful reason.

Sure you do. You've never heard of corporations that back more than one side in an election, so they have an connections with whoever wins in the end? Happens all the time in real life.

The IB didn't give Stannis enough to finance a whole a war, just a small amount, enough to keep him going temporarily.

Perhaps they are hedging their bets. Perhaps they like chaos (where lords grow more in debt to them - this is Littlefinger style thinking). or perhaps they even figure Stannis will use that money to go fight the lannister-Tyrell alliance and get killed, ending the war that much faster so they can be repaid.

[The Fenris Wolf]

See I'm not sure I really agree with this. For myself and a lot of other book readers I speak with, Stannis was not much liked until the end of ASOS. He came off as a entitled "Mine by Rights!" whiner, and a bit of a religious zealot type blindly following this Melisandre chick who most had quite a few doubts about to begin with. The whole burning of Idols and what not, along with burning people (including relatives), made him seem.. pretty unlikeable.

I think show watchers (Unsullied) more or less have the correct feelings towards Stannis, at least in regards to how they should currently view him.

Everything changes when Stannis saves the wall. He went from generally unliked, to amiable. Then from Amiable to fan favorite in ADWD. He's now one of my favorite people and I think this is the case for plenty of readers. Imo the bias of their current Stannis views kind of blind them when watching the show.

Maybe that's just me, or maybe the Show runners really are just going to whiff on his character, but as things currently are, there is certainly time to bring him around in a very similar fashion to how we experienced him in the books.

This is a really interesting point, and I hadn't considered it until you brought it up. I feel the same way about the character of Stannis. He definitely becomes more likeable as the books progress. By the time you see him at the Wall with Jon, and then marching south leading his army, you get a real sense of the man.

I thought this episode was great the way they portrayed him talking with the Iron Bank's people. There's this scene at the very beginning when they calmly walk in and sit down, then the guy looks at Stannis, smiles, and offers him a seat. You can practically see Stannis sizing him up and thinking, "You don't offer the king a seat! It's my seat bitch!" It was pretty awesome.