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Yet another balanced review of Stannis [Book Spoilers]


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I think the IB lending money works quite well in this situation. Providing a small bridge loan to Stannis is problematic in the sense that he doesn't really have any way of paying it back at the moment. However, even if he were to die before paying it back, whatever loan was given could be enough to prolong the war. In turn that will force the Lannisters to borrow and spend more money, so whatever money was lost on Stannis, would be paid back through the act of prolonging the war. Even if the Lannisters were to learn of what the IB did, what re-course do they have? They still need money. Tywin cannot simply cut off payments to the IB without the IB completely throwing their resources behind Stannis fully. From an historical perspective this happens all the time, gun runners will often arm both sides of a conflict, nation-states do this all the time. War is an incredibly profitable enterprise in which individuals, organizations and nations have a deeply vested interest in.


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I think something very important has been missed in this thread. Stannis' face pre-Davos speech and Stannis' face post Davos speech, Dillane is a fantastic actor, and all I could think was "is this the moment where Stannis finally rediscovers himself thanks to Davos?" Don't get me wrong, while Stannis was never the slobbering goof in the books that he is in the show, he did need to rediscover himself (something the haters completely miss, by the way) and it was thanks to Davos that he did so. The man sung his praises, blew his trumpet and single handedly reinvigorated his cause, not only that, but he talked about the Stannis that he knew, the Stannis Eddard Stark talked about in Season 1, not the Stannis that we've got to know in the show.



Call me over-optimistic, and maybe I am reading too much into Dillanes wonderful face, but he's always worth watching in these scenes. Please let me be right on this one, I've been hurt before, but I think this is just a different incarnation of Davos pulling Stannis out of his slump and bringing back a decent incarnation of the man.


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I think something very important has been missed in this thread. Stannis' face pre-Davos speech and Stannis' face post Davos speech, Dillane is a fantastic actor, and all I could think was "is this the moment where Stannis finally rediscovers himself thanks to Davos?" Don't get me wrong, while Stannis was never the slobbering goof in the books that he is in the show, he did need to rediscover himself (something the haters completely miss, by the way) and it was thanks to Davos that he did so. The man sung his praises, blew his trumpet and single handedly reinvigorated his cause, not only that, but he talked about the Stannis that he knew, the Stannis Eddard Stark talked about in Season 1, not the Stannis that we've got to know in the show.

Call me over-optimistic, and maybe I am reading too much into Dillanes wonderful face, but he's always worth watching in these scenes. Please let me be right on this one, I've been hurt before, but I think this is just a different incarnation of Davos pulling Stannis out of his slump and bringing back a decent incarnation of the man.

Bryan Cogman answering some Stannis questions from an EW interview yesterday.

The Stannis storyline has been stuck with him fuming at his big table in Dragonstone for awhile. It must be fun to get him out and about again.

Absolutely. That was the idea. When we first broached the subject of bringing in the Iron Bank, for awhile the version was [iron Bank representative Tycho Nestoris] would come to Dragonstone and meet on Stannis’ turf. It just seemed like whenever we can open up this world and give the audience something new visually and take characters out of their comfort zone, the better. We thought it would be more dramatic and interesting to put Stannis in the position of having to go ask for a loan. It’s a humiliating situation. The Stannis storyline is certainly more of a slow burn, but it will pay off.

My impression of Stannis is that he would be a very just king, but would also be terrible at the job because has zero social game. How can you rule without any understanding other people’s needs and motivations?

That’s a valid question. He’s learning, though. This was a teachable episode for him and another reason why he keeps Davos around even though they don’t see eye to eye and Davos commits what Stannis sees as a little treason now and then. Davos helps him face these hard truths and through Davos he’s slowly learning some lessons. Here he has to swallow his pride. It was great fun having [actors] Liam Cunningham,Stephen Dillane and Mark Gatiss all on the set in the same scene. They have very different personas and different ways of working and it was great to see them bounce off each other.

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Bryan Cogman answering some Stannis questions from an EW interview yesterday.

The Stannis storyline has been stuck with him fuming at his big table in Dragonstone for awhile. It must be fun to get him out and about again.

Absolutely. That was the idea. When we first broached the subject of bringing in the Iron Bank, for awhile the version was [iron Bank representative Tycho Nestoris] would come to Dragonstone and meet on Stannis’ turf. It just seemed like whenever we can open up this world and give the audience something new visually and take characters out of their comfort zone, the better. We thought it would be more dramatic and interesting to put Stannis in the position of having to go ask for a loan. It’s a humiliating situation. The Stannis storyline is certainly more of a slow burn, but it will pay off.

My impression of Stannis is that he would be a very just king, but would also be terrible at the job because has zero social game. How can you rule without any understanding other people’s needs and motivations?

That’s a valid question. He’s learning, though. This was a teachable episode for him and another reason why he keeps Davos around even though they don’t see eye to eye and Davos commits what Stannis sees as a little treason now and then. Davos helps him face these hard truths and through Davos he’s slowly learning some lessons. Here he has to swallow his pride. It was great fun having [actors] Liam Cunningham,Stephen Dillane and Mark Gatiss all on the set in the same scene. They have very different personas and different ways of working and it was great to see them bounce off each other.

Oh wow, now all you need to do is tell me the person asking the questions has never read the books and you'll have made my day. (Not sarcasm)

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Oh wow, now all you need to do is tell me the person asking the questions has never read the books and you'll have made my day. (Not sarcasm)

It was by James Hibberd and hes read the books. I don't think he's particularly wrong in saying that Stannis would be a just king but he is lacking in qualities that allow him to relate to others or better understand their motivations. For what its worth I think he gets better at that in ADwD but its still not a personal strength of his.

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It's the same reasons everyone in AGOT immediately dismisses the notion that he would be the best choice for king once Robert dies and Ned starts pushing for Stannis as the rightful heir. The argument has always been that he's a brilliant battle commander and a just ruler but he doesn't understand or care about how people will react to the things that he does which cause the vast majority to reject his personality. He needs a guy like Davos to advise him and champion his cause to others because he's too rigid to emphasize with those he would rule over.



When Renly says "no one wants you for their king, brother", he's not BSing.


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I think something very important has been missed in this thread. Stannis' face pre-Davos speech and Stannis' face post Davos speech, Dillane is a fantastic actor, and all I could think was "is this the moment where Stannis finally rediscovers himself thanks to Davos?" Don't get me wrong, while Stannis was never the slobbering goof in the books that he is in the show, he did need to rediscover himself (something the haters completely miss, by the way) and it was thanks to Davos that he did so. The man sung his praises, blew his trumpet and single handedly reinvigorated his cause, not only that, but he talked about the Stannis that he knew, the Stannis Eddard Stark talked about in Season 1, not the Stannis that we've got to know in the show.

nice observation! i do think we'll see a shift in his characterization.

It was by James Hibberd and hes read the books. I don't think he's particularly wrong in saying that Stannis would be a just king but he is lacking in qualities that allow him to relate to others or better understand their motivations. For what its worth I think he gets better at that in ADwD but its still not a personal strength of his.

this! he does have poor, if any, understanding of people's motivations and struggles, and this is a severe handicap. it's why stanstans always say stannis would be a great king with davos as hand. without davos, he'd be a nightmare. saying that someone who has that opinion hasn't read the book is really not accurate at all since this comes through in the books far more than in the show.

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It was by James Hibberd and hes read the books. I don't think he's particularly wrong in saying that Stannis would be a just king but he is lacking in qualities that allow him to relate to others or better understand their motivations. For what its worth I think he gets better at that in ADwD but its still not a personal strength of his.

No I don't think he's wrong in saying that either, I think he's spot on, I was just hoping that that observation came from a show only watcher, because I think they might not think of him as just, or even decent, what with all the religious stuff and general weirdness and all that "me want Throne, bang me Mel, ooh Robb Stark dead!" with show Stannis' character.

nice observation! i do think we'll see a shift in his characterization.

this! he does have poor, if any, understanding of people's motivations and struggles, and this is a severe handicap. it's why stanstans always say stannis would be a great king with davos as hand. without davos, he'd be a nightmare. saying that someone who has that opinion hasn't read the book is really not accurate at all since this comes through in the books far more than in the show.

As I said to Widows Blood, I was hoping that it came from a show only watcher, because then I would feel less vindicated with my feelings that they're not showing that side of Stannis at all. Instead sticking with all that bad traits, turned up to 11, but its alright because he likes Shireen guys...

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See I'm not sure I really agree with this. For myself and a lot of other book readers I speak with, Stannis was not much liked until the end of ASOS. He came off as a entitled "Mine by Rights!" whiner, and a bit of a religious zealot type blindly following this Melisandre chick who most had quite a few doubts about to begin with. The whole burning of Idols and what not, along with burning people (including relatives), made him seem.. pretty unlikeable.

I think show watchers (Unsullied) more or less have the correct feelings towards Stannis, at least in regards to how they should currently view him.

Everything changes when Stannis saves the wall. He went from generally unliked, to amiable. Then from Amiable to fan favorite in ADWD. He's now one of my favorite people and I think this is the case for plenty of readers. Imo the bias of their current Stannis views kind of blind them when watching the show.

Maybe that's just me, or maybe the Show runners really are just going to whiff on his character, but as things currently are, there is certainly time to bring him around in a very similar fashion to how we experienced him in the books.

I do initially agree with this. I wasn't that much into Stannis until he got to the Wall.

However, on re-read I picked up on his dry humour and more human side (conflict over killing relatives and belief in Davos) and appreciated him more. However, the problem is that these things don't exist on the show (or have been downplayed) so when people re-watch they won't be picking it up. He will become a better guy when he gets to the Wall, before that he was simply a Dick and boring.

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I think they might not think of him as just, or even decent, what with all the religious stuff and general weirdness and all that "me want Throne, bang me Mel, ooh Robb Stark dead!" with show Stannis' character.

but these are a big part of his characterization! he's not just a great general and just man. he's also on a quest to the bitter end for the iron throne, so yes, me want throne. and without the shadow babies, his whole story would be different and most likely over as he had a significantly smaller army so yes, bang me mel. and finally, he is not sympathetic to robb's death, regardless of how horrendous it was that it occurred after guest right had been in effect (he wasn't sympathetic to any stark, for that matter) so yes, ooh robb stark dead. he only saw robb as another pretender so we're not told that he had a thought about it other than "wow. those leeches are really working!". why should the show gloss over any of this? he'd have very little story at this point without them.

and yes, he goes to the wall and then to winterfell and that's all great but without the things you mention here, i'm not even sure that would have been an option for him.

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but these are a big part of his characterization! he's not just a great general and just man. he's also on a quest to the bitter end for the iron throne, so yes, me want throne. and without the shadow babies, his whole story would be different and most likely over as he had a significantly smaller army so yes, bang me mel. and finally, he is not sympathetic to robb's death, regardless of how horrendous it was that it occurred after guest right had been in effect (he wasn't sympathetic to any stark, for that matter) so yes, ooh robb stark dead. he only saw robb as another pretender so we're not told that he had a thought about it other than "wow. those leeches are really working!". why should the show gloss over any of this? he'd have very little story at this point without them.

and yes, he goes to the wall and then to winterfell and that's all great but without the things you mention here, i'm not even sure that would have been an option for him.

I don't want them to gloss it over, I don't even really mind that they've amped it up, the show is the show, the books are the books, I've grown to accept that. But, what I do mind, is that by amping up this side and toning down the sense of justice and other good points (up until this point) you don't get a fair balance on the character, you get the whiney borderline religious zealot most show fans think Stannis is, where the words "justice" and "duty" although mentioned fleetingly by the character are among the last words you'd use to describe him with, generally falling behind "arsehole" "zealot" and "puppet". And perhaps even "cruel" and book Stannis may have small parts of the former three in him, but he is not cruel.

Its not the bad I have a problem with, its a lack of the good.

But hey, he likes Shireen...

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So does last night mean that in TWOW we will see Ser Justin Massey succeed in his mission?

Not necessarily. The storyline was mainly included to give Stannis something to do this season, and the men the money will buy will only go towards helping him defeat the wildlings, as well as probably taking the place of the mountain clans that Stannis recruits to fight the Boltons.

So I don't think what happens in TWOW had any effect on this storyline. They could work around it either way.

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Bryan Cogman answering some Stannis questions from an EW interview yesterday.

The Stannis storyline has been stuck with him fuming at his big table in Dragonstone for awhile. It must be fun to get him out and about again.

Absolutely. That was the idea. When we first broached the subject of bringing in the Iron Bank, for awhile the version was [iron Bank representative Tycho Nestoris] would come to Dragonstone and meet on Stannis’ turf. It just seemed like whenever we can open up this world and give the audience something new visually and take characters out of their comfort zone, the better. We thought it would be more dramatic and interesting to put Stannis in the position of having to go ask for a loan. It’s a humiliating situation. The Stannis storyline is certainly more of a slow burn, but it will pay off.

My impression of Stannis is that he would be a very just king, but would also be terrible at the job because has zero social game. How can you rule without any understanding other people’s needs and motivations?

That’s a valid question. He’s learning, though. This was a teachable episode for him and another reason why he keeps Davos around even though they don’t see eye to eye and Davos commits what Stannis sees as a little treason now and then. Davos helps him face these hard truths and through Davos he’s slowly learning some lessons. Here he has to swallow his pride. It was great fun having [actors] Liam Cunningham,Stephen Dillane and Mark Gatiss all on the set in the same scene. They have very different personas and different ways of working and it was great to see them bounce off each other.

This is huge. I am officially hopeful now for some explosive awesome shit come episode 9 and at least something close to resembling a redemption arc: "The Stannis storyline is certainly more of a slow burn, but it will pay off." And, more than that, Cogman acknowledges that Stannis is learning. This is something we see in the books too in the latter half of SoS. Gotta say, my faith is more or less restore. (In Bryan Cogman, anyway)

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Though stannis isn't one of my favorite characters. I honestly didn't start liking him in the books until he reached the wall.which I think was a HUGE point for him & the books. Sooo I'm really hoping that they let stannis have his moment of glory when he reaches the wall "STANNIS! STANNIS! STANNIS!" I had chills when i read that part I hope they don't change it!

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So does last night mean that in TWOW we will see Ser Justin Massey succeed in his mission?

I was thinking the same thing it could be one of two things he either gets a bunch of sellswords now and they cut Massey or what I think will happen is he only gets enough gold to hire a few sellswords and ships and when tycho goes to the wall later he gets the rest of the money and sends Massey on his mission.

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I do initially agree with this. I wasn't that much into Stannis until he got to the Wall.

However, on re-read I picked up on his dry humour and more human side (conflict over killing relatives and belief in Davos) and appreciated him more. However, the problem is that these things don't exist on the show (or have been downplayed) so when people re-watch they won't be picking it up. He will become a better guy when he gets to the Wall, before that he was simply a Dick and boring.

That's because on your re-read you were already seeing him with different eyes, so you judge his personality based on deeds he had not done at that point yet. Before Stannis went to the Wall, I felt like putting my book down for a few hours every time I saw a Davos chapter. I didn't find that storyline very interesting, because I found the characters too isolated and boring, and after Cortnay Penrose's cheap death, arranged by Stannis himself, I kinda hated him for a bit. On my first re-read, everytime I saw Stannis in ACOK and ASOS I saw the Stannis from ADWD and TWOW, telling myself he was just misunderstood or misdirected, and then I became a Stanstan. On my second re-read, however, I tried to be less biased and then I realised that he's not really worthy of being a fan favorite before going to the Wall.

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I think something very important has been missed in this thread. Stannis' face pre-Davos speech and Stannis' face post Davos speech, Dillane is a fantastic actor, and all I could think was "is this the moment where Stannis finally rediscovers himself thanks to Davos?" Don't get me wrong, while Stannis was never the slobbering goof in the books that he is in the show, he did need to rediscover himself (something the haters completely miss, by the way) and it was thanks to Davos that he did so. The man sung his praises, blew his trumpet and single handedly reinvigorated his cause, not only that, but he talked about the Stannis that he knew, the Stannis Eddard Stark talked about in Season 1, not the Stannis that we've got to know in the show.

Call me over-optimistic, and maybe I am reading too much into Dillanes wonderful face, but he's always worth watching in these scenes. Please let me be right on this one, I've been hurt before, but I think this is just a different incarnation of Davos pulling Stannis out of his slump and bringing back a decent incarnation of the man.

He does sort of resemble Gene Kelly, the white guy who was in Enter The Dragon with Bruce Lee.

So does last night mean that in TWOW we will see Ser Justin Massey succeed in his mission?

Well they don't want Stannis to pull an army out of his ass out of nowhere in season 6, so they can establish that he has been hiring men since season 4, whether he sends a guy in season 5/6 to hire more that sort of coincides with Massey is possible I suppose but the show is not the book.

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