Yet another balanced review of Stannis [Book Spoilers]

[Mark the Red]

So whats your point? Saying banks don't gamble with money when they clearly and demonstrably do gamble with money as you just stated?

Talk about arguing for the sake of arguing. What next? The Iron Bank doesn't lend money to people outside of the IT because they lend money to Stannis? The Lord works in myterious ways non-answers?

You must write comments on the Huffington Post. It makes my heard hurt to try to understand.

[The Onion Sleight]

I wanted to write a long post here actually, but since I'm now way too tired (and want to go to bed), I just came here to post this link to our "PTV / NeoGAF Unsullied Thread": http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/108373-tvbook-spoilers-ptv-unsullied-thread-part-8/page-9

I wrote a post there a few minutes ago and quoted many, many postive Stannis posts from the NeoGAF Unsullied; I thought maybe you'd be interested in it :)

[-Ghost-]

So since Stannis has his money now, is he gonna hire sellswords before he gets back to Westeros?

[DaveyJoe]

No, he's going to squander it all on faberge eggs.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Im starting to have hopes they are giving us finally a better Stannis.

Two episodes ago two seasoned commanders as Jorah and Selmy said 11k men were enough to take KL. Stannis already has 4k and the gold to hire many more (he asks for 20k sellswords in the books).

Stannis never had this numbers in the books when he went to the wall. Taking KL with his 1500 men was never an option. Now in the show it might be, and if they paint it that way, with the mannis avoiding the temptation, ill will almost forget D&D for their harm in the past.

I keep my fingers crossed.

[RoamingRonin]

Im starting to have hopes they are giving us finally a better Stannis.

Two episodes ago two seasoned commanders as Jorah and Selmy said 11k men were enough to take KL. Stannis already has 4k and the gold to hire many more (he asks for 20k sellswords in the books).

Stannis never had this numbers in the books when he went to the wall. Taking KL with his 1500 men was never an option. Now in the show it might be, and if they paint it that way, with the mannis avoiding the temptation, ill will almost forget D&D for their harm in the past.

I keep my fingers crossed.

Don't worry. We know Stannis wins the wildling battle even if the TV audience doesn't. He's being shaped up for a major victory. I think that's why the wildlings are being shown as such vile, heartless people. People might not like the cannibal angle for the Thenns but it gives Stannis a enemy worth smashing. That's something the Unsullied viewers can get behind.

Let me ask you: do you think they'll make Stannis a sort of antagonist for Jon later on? We know Stannis does sort of bully the Night's Watch in book 5 but do you think D&D will over do it?

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Don't worry. We know Stannis wins the wildling battle even if the TV audience doesn't. He's being shaped up for a major victory. I think that's why the wildlings are being shown as such vile, heartless people. People might not like the cannibal angle for the Thenns but it gives Stannis a enemy worth smashing. That's something the Unsullied viewers can get behind.

Those thenns will be dead from fighting Night's watch and Jon Snow himself will kill Magnar. Stannis will be killing "average wildlings" who no one gives two shits about.

Let me ask you: do you think they'll make Stannis a sort of antagonist for Jon later on? We know Stannis does sort of bully the Night's Watch in book 5 but do you think D&D will over do it?

Definitely going to over do it. I have faith in D&D.

[Areo Speedwagon]

Very interesting take on the Episode and Stannis in particular from the avclub's review of episode 6. The whole article is great, a link is at the bottom. But the paragraph before the one posted is about how a theme of the season is the balance of power and justice, and that if you get it right you might earn someone's loyalty.

The author then states how the whole episode is filled with loyalty and its opposite - Theon, Shae, Tyrion, Jaime. Then he gets to....

That’s why maybe the most important scene in this episode is its very first one. Davos and Stannis show up in Braavos to beg for the Iron Bank to back their claim to the throne. The bankers (one of whom is played by Mark Gatiss!) say no, that’s not something they’re going to do, but Davos won’t hear of it. He immediately begins extolling the virtues of his king, of the man who spared his life and made him a knight but still took his fingers. Game Of Thrones rarely tips its hand as to where it believes these various claimants to the throne to be in relation to each other—outside of its general love for all things Dany—but here’s a pretty big moment in relation to this episode. Stannis may not have much, but he has the ability to get men to make huge speeches proclaiming his greatness to rooms full of powerful men. And, ultimately, that might be even more worthwhile than gold.

The whole review is great, read it here.

[Red Raven]

Definitely going to over do it. I have faith in D&D.

Which is a shame since in the book Stannis has a grudging respect for Jon and Mel likes him. Of course those nuances will be sledgehammered out of the show.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

well... I hope it doesnt but it might change. Stannis will ve now more or less 10 times the men Jon has, and plenty of coin. That might make him even more bossy

They dont even need Jon to help him to find more men, since he has gold to hire as many as he needs.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

D&D apologists:

"They can do no wrong!"

No one says this.

People just get sick of over entitled people endlessly whinging using the exact same buzzwords again and again.

[DaveyJoe]

They are just exercising their agency.

[sati]

They are just exercising their agency.

:lmao:

[Quentyn Kartell]

I know there was a instant in Dance with Dragons (or Winds of Winter) when Theon was brought to Stannis. What chapter was it? Wasnt that Stannis's first encounter with the Iron Bank?

[Thelastactionhero]

No one says this.

People just get sick of over entitled people endlessly whinging using the exact same buzzwords again and again.

Would you feel better if people used autonomy, sui iuris, or pittura infamante instead? Get over it dude. A question for the philosophers though: Is it whiny to whine about whining people using buzzwords?

[The Prince of Newcastle]

It is. This is what I am reduced to sometimes.

The internet gives me too much agency (To steal a poster above a joke).

[Thelastactionhero]

It is. This is what I am reduced to sometimes.

The internet gives me too much agency (To steal a poster above a joke).

Haha. Touche.

[OnlyOne]

I love that he didn't beg the bank to give him money. Stannis does not beg.

At least they got that part right about Stannis!!!!

[stannisismyking]

I know there was a instant in Dance with Dragons (or Winds of Winter) when Theon was brought to Stannis. What chapter was it? Wasnt that Stannis's first encounter with the Iron Bank?

Yes, Tycho arrives at Stannis' camp at the end of ADWD and then meets with Stannis in the Theon sample chapter in TWOW. Stannis signs his name in blood because the ink bottle has frozen (For some reason this moment was very inspiring to me: x)

BAMF.

According to Bryan Cogman this was only a provisional loan - though obviously this hasn't been made apparent on screen - so he'll probably need mo' money at a later date

[Miodrag]

Bryan Cogman answering some Stannis questions from an EW interview yesterday.

The Stannis storyline has been stuck with him fuming at his big table in Dragonstone for awhile. It must be fun to get him out and about again.

Absolutely. That was the idea. When we first broached the subject of bringing in the Iron Bank, for awhile the version was [iron Bank representative Tycho Nestoris] would come to Dragonstone and meet on Stannis’ turf. It just seemed like whenever we can open up this world and give the audience something new visually and take characters out of their comfort zone, the better. We thought it would be more dramatic and interesting to put Stannis in the position of having to go ask for a loan. It’s a humiliating situation. The Stannis storyline is certainly more of a slow burn, but it will pay off.

My impression of Stannis is that he would be a very just king, but would also be terrible at the job because has zero social game. How can you rule without any understanding other people’s needs and motivations?

That’s a valid question. He’s learning, though. This was a teachable episode for him and another reason why he keeps Davos around even though they don’t see eye to eye and Davos commits what Stannis sees as a little treason now and then. Davos helps him face these hard truths and through Davos he’s slowly learning some lessons. Here he has to swallow his pride. It was great fun having [actors] Liam Cunningham,Stephen Dillane and Mark Gatiss all on the set in the same scene. They have very different personas and different ways of working and it was great to see them bounce off each other.

These answers actually contain all the reasons TV Stannis is such a dull, flat and utterly uninteresting character. While "adapting" ASOIAF, a saga full of brilliant coming-of-age stories, the showrunners took an arc that literally has nothing to do with coming of age (Stannis) and turned it into - a terrible and cliched coming-of-age arc, all the more terrible because of the actual age of the protagonist: a fully grown, mature and responsible man.

"Here he has to swallow his pride." Cogman seems to think that's a good thing. Like, he actually thinks it's an interesting development: to make a character swallow own pride. Well, it is not, especially in an epic story like ASOIAF, and even more especially with a character like Stannis.

First, that theme - swallowing a pride - has generally been worn-out for quite some time. Whatever I can say about the theme of pride and its importance and why it's wrong to turn it into a simplified cliche a la "pride is something to be swallowed", Tarantino said it better in his Pulp Fiction, with Butch (the boxer) storyline. And Pulp Fiction happened 20 years ago. One would expect GOT showrunners saw that movie and learned something from it.

Second, in the world Martin created, swallowing a pride can be a very dangerous thing. Ned swallowed his pride at the end, and died because of it (had he refused to "confess", Joff wouldn't be able to kill him the way he did). Robb decided to swallow his pride and ask Freys for forgiveness, and he died because of it. Robert decided to swallow his pride and tolerate the family he married into and was indebted to, and he died because of it. Then, we have Jaime, whose pride is taken away from him along with his swordhand: after a brief period of giving up on life, he rebounded by establishing another kind of pride for himself, because otherwise he'd probably see no reason to live anymore. Then there's Theon, a man who literally had to swallow anything that resembles a pride, and at that point he really isn't a human being any more - only after Jeyne Pool awakens something deep inside him (something that is inevitably connected with pride), he's able to find some traces of humanity in himself. Even Littlefinger and Varys, who are thought to have no pride at all, may actually have a very vivid pride, only hidden from the world (in case of Littlefinger, it's as good as proven, while Varys' last appearance indicates the same). And of course, there's Tywin, a man whose pride was too artificial and deformed into arrogance of the most dangerous kind. All of which means that pride is not something Martin takes lightly either way. You can't take it too far because it becomes arrogance (Tywin, or Jaime with both hands), and you can't live of it, especially if it isn't based in any reality any more (Robert), but to swallow it is not a bit less wrong. Like with many other aspects, for pride Martin found the perfect balance, while providing numerous different angles that illustrate the reality the balance is rooted in. Throwing all that away for some cheap, nihilistic, "one has to swallow the pride to succeed" philosophy, is among the biggest mistakes of this "adaptation", and possible the biggest one, from which many other mistakes stem.

Third, boiling Stannis down to a man who has to swallow his pride is a very, very poor and unfortunate decision. His arc is, along with Dany's, probably the most unique one among all ASOIAF arcs. Other arcs and storylines, while no less brilliant, are comparable with (and sometimes influenced by) stories of other authors and/or actual history. Stannis (along with Dany) is not. If there's another story of a ruler who actually saw the power of gods and uses one god in his struggle to win the throne he claims but ultimately refuses to succumb his will to any god because he rests his duties solely with his subjects, I definitely didn't hear about it. Regardless of what one thinks of Stannis, his arc is a perhaps unparalleled storytelling (and a masterpiece, I'd add), that touches some of the most important issues humanity's been facing forever (our relationship with deities, and our place in the higher order of things, if there is one at all). And it would simply be impossible to achieve, if at the center of everything there's a man who has to swallow his pride. It would be ridiculous. The entire story would collapse. The man who can defy gods he uses by the way, who'll break rather than bend, and who inspires the ultimate devotion he got from Davos and Cressen, is not someone who "has to swallow his pride".

As is the case with Dany's war on slavery, Stannis' arc is so unique, its mindless and pointless to analyze an adaptation of it without comparing the adaptation with the original. And this interview by Cogman gave me all the reasons why HBO's adaptation is so inferior to the source material.