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rocksniffer

(BEWARE SPOILERS) "...A Thousand Lying Whores..."

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She never called him "giant" on the show but did call him "my lion," and Bryan Cogman said in an interview about this episode that they tried to make all the things used to condemn Tyrion during the witnesses' testimony mostly true.

Yeah, there is just not as much sexual humiliation the way the show did it - no "my giant of Lannister". In the book that was the most painful part of the trial - she says that, and the whole room is bursting out laughing.

As additions go, I really did like that his speech sounded a tad more venomous.

I thought it was clever that they threw in those allegations of Young Wolf sympathies. Plus that Sansa is accused of supposedly offering up her virtue at the cost of Joffrey's life - and he supposedly committed treason and kinslaying just to be able to bed her.

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I think the Sansa jealousy business was a ridiculous change but I think the other changes to Shae were good ones. Part of what George R.R. Martin does well is highlight what [censored] the whole Medieval values system is. Shae is a prostitute but she's a human being first and bringing up this doesn't make her anything more or less than a person plying her trade is a good thing.



Yes, in the books, it's TYRION who makes up the relationship in his head but showing he wanted to "buy a girlfriend" isn't a bad thing for me.


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I remember thinking about how great that speeach was in the book--Dinklage elevated it here. I almost got up and cheered.


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Another thing on the Shae version is that you can read class and money subtext from mercenary Shae into the Sansa-Shae jealousy. People are talking about how Shae being jealous of Sansa is ridiculous and how it was all about the money for Shae but I think it's interesting to view it in the context of how money warps the relationship of Tyrion and Shae.

Sansa is a "proper" wife because of her class and position.

Shae is a prostitute.

Shae's fears about Tyrion wanting Sansa may well be class-conscious.

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Yes, in the books, it's TYRION who makes up the relationship in his head but showing he wanted to "buy a girlfriend" isn't a bad thing for me.

Well, to be fair in the books, they lean much more heavily on the idea that virtually every woman is disgusted by him, and that he thinks a whore is the only kind of woman he could ever really get.

The show writers chose to make Shae more emotional and sympathetic, and they also chose to ease back on how deeply Tyrion is exposed to contempt by the world just for being a dwarf.

Another thing on the Shae version is that you can read class and money subtext from mercenary Shae into the Sansa-Shae jealousy.

Shae's fears about Tyrion wanting Sansa may well be class-conscious.

There was definitely a lot of this in the show with Shae. Not that sophisticated in presenting its complexity, but Shae certainly shows lots of clear insecurity about it. Varys' conversations with her dwell on it, and finally Tyrion seems to reject her for that reason. I think it started with her Roz conversation, where she is told the bells in Winterfell rang for a whole day when Sansa was born.

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And I think they did an excellent job of leaving show viewers wondering which of the three (or all three) are responsible for Shae's testimony.

I agree with others on re-watch - - Shae starts out nervous and not very believable during the lies about Tyrion plotting to kill Joffrey with Sansa, but by the time her testimony takes on a more personal note, all nervousness drops and she's pure spite and revenge so there's a tinge of both coercion (for the lies) and scorned lover paypack both. For as many people who disliked Shae's actor ability, she really nailed this scene perfectly.

Even though they portrayed show Shae as much more sympathetic to Sansa and 'in-love' with Tyrion than in the books, the end result at the trial is still just as powerful in my opinion. Nothing could take away from that shocker and non book viewers had to have been appropriately shocked by her betrayal which makes the next one even more dramatic.

She seemed quite horrified when Tyrion demanded his trial by combat. It's almost like she made a deal with the agreement that he lives if she gives testimony, but is now sure that he will die.

https://imageshack.com/i/n6qlmpp

http://imageshack.com/a/img839/355/svin.png

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She seemed quite horrified when Tyrion demanded his trial by combat. It's almost like she made a deal with the agreement that he lives if she gives testimony, but is now sure that he will die.

Could be indicative of a later twist. She did not expect it, had other ideas maybe.

We still do not know what took place between her being taken to a ship and her being brought back for the trial.

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In any case, I'm entirely cool with the idea Shae is a relatively okay person who just gets caught up in the Game of Thrones and dies horribly for it. Yes, she betrays Tyrion but the ambiguity of the whole thing will make the moment when he shoots her in the chest all the more poignant.



It's the "big thing" along with Tywin's death that will be this season's stinger like the Red Wedding or Ned's death.



I also think, after this, Tyrion will remain a sympathetic murderer while Shae will be a sympathetic victim.





Well, to be fair in the books, they lean much more heavily on the idea that virtually every woman is disgusted by him, and that he thinks a whore is the only kind of woman he could ever really get.


The show writers chose to make Shae more emotional and sympathetic, and they also chose to ease back on how deeply Tyrion is exposed to contempt by the world just for being a dwarf.




Tyrion also believed his first wife was a whore so he is attempting to recapture his feelings for her, there's subtext to as well.


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We still do not know what took place between her being taken to a ship and her being brought back for the trial.

I wonder if we'll discover what happened through Shae herself in the Tower of the Hand, or if Cersei or Tywin lets it slip earlier?

Fantastic scene. Dinklage killed it, and even I felt like I had bloodlust as he was spitting venom at everyone.

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True, but to be fair to TV Shae, Tyrion swore up and down that he loved her, that his marriage to Sansa meant nothing, and that their relationship could continue--remember his big talk in 3x07 about setting up Shae in a nice house and providing for any children he fathered on her, which certainly implied that he saw a long-term, continuing relationship with her--only to wind up doing what she feared he would do for quite some time: reject her in favour of his marriage to Sansa. No wonder she's pissed.

It also seems implied in the 4x01 scene that TV Tyrion was already passive-aggressively inching out of his relationship with Shae by the time Varys warned him and led him to take a more direct approach, which probably fueled Shae's bitterness.

No, Tyrion was still more than willing to do this, provided that Shae would indeed leave KL and go someplace safe, but she stayed anyway.

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Watching it again. She seems scared and off when she is telling the parts that are clear lies. About the plot. When she switches into describing their relationship she starts to get more into it and it seems more vindictive and its more lover scorned.

On another note, the music is EXCELLENT during the trial. Especially during the confession. This dark reprise of Rains of Castamere. Reallly well done. Everyone about the trial was well crafted. Acting, music, editing, cinematography. Hats off.

God that death stare between father and son is AMAZING. Their final confrontation is going to be epic.

Oh yes; and Tyrion actually surprised Pops with the intensity of his death-glare. They were lion-to-lion here, and with actors of this caliber, the confrontation sizzled.

One other Great Acting Moment that really moved me in GAME also involved Tyrion/Tywin eye contact - it was back in Season 1. Tywin told Tyrion he was making him Acting Hand and called him his son. Tyrion's eyes showed first shock and then an awestruck belief that this was happening, that his father was entrusting him with something important - it was nuanced and credible and rather sad as well as triumphant; and for me, that's when Peter Dinklage earned his Emmy; to show with just his face all the insecurity and complexity of probably the most important relationship in the character's life.

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No, Tyrion was still more than willing to do this, provided that Shae would indeed leave KL and go someplace safe, but she stayed anyway.

I think Tyrion would have forgotten about her and she knew it.

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I wonder if we'll discover what happened through Shae herself in the Tower of the Hand, or if Cersei or Tywin lets it slip earlier?

Fantastic scene. Dinklage killed it, and even I felt like I had bloodlust as he was spitting venom at everyone.

Yeah it was great, nice to finally get to see a darker side to Tyrion which has been featured a lot less in the show than in the books up until this point

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Felt pretty conflicted about the whole thing.
On the one hand, their treatment of Shae as a character so far has been appalling, but on the other, her scene at the trial was very well handled.

I don't doubt for a second that she was paid and/or coerced by Cersei into giving this testimony (as evidenced by her wearing Sansa's dress) but everything that comes before makes it seem like she was doing this out of spite and jealousy, which is frankly utterly ridiculous.

I liked Shae in the books because she never lied about who she was, she was very clear that she was playing a role, very convincingly maybe, but it was still a role and Tyrion knew that, he just didn't want to see it. So I never considered Shae's testimony as a "betrayal", not anymore than Bronn refusing to fight for him. I simply saw it as a victim of horrible circumstances (a whore in a deeply misogynistic culture) trying to use what little agency she had to better her situation. I don't think any one of us could say they would've acted differently in her situation. What was she supposed to do? Lie to protect Tyrion and die? Refuse to testify and probably die as well? With the information available to her at the time, testifying against Tyrion was her ultimate act of self-preservation.

In the show, they turn the whole situation into a "hell hath no fury" kinda thing, turning the character of Shae into a terrible scorned and spiteful woman stereotype.

Anyway, I'm not surprised — I've long stopped expecting this show to depict women as people capable of making their own decisions.

And now let's watch as they somehow turn Shae's murder into a heroic act for Tyrion.

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I thought the books rather weak on the Shae part. The TV version is far more credible.



It isn't just the scorned woman angle, it is the betrayal by the one woman he has trusted. Shae's speech isn't to get a guilty verdict, its to show that the offer of taking the black is going to be reneged on like with Ned. At this point it is going to look to Tyrion like it is Cersei's doing.



The TV and the book versions have very different constraints. GRRM can put a minor character close to a major character for three books and still have then be minor. That doesn't work on TV. Any character that is on screen as often as Shae is going to become major. So they have to have more motivation.



It really would not work for Tyrion to be such a slave to his cock that he keeps a whore who he knows is just there for the money. So Shae has to be there for more than money and her betrayal has to be about more.



Don't forget that at this point Shae thinks Tyrion did it and that he is going to be executed anyway.



The other key point is when Tyrion asks Varys if he remembers. Which is basically asking if Varys recognizes the debt and will help him.



As for when Tywin gets the chop, I would think episode 9. Because they just had that big reveal on the Iron Bank which would be a bit of an anti-climax if viewers had to remember that speech about 'what if Tywin dies' to the next season. The cliffhanger will be the bank granting Stannis a loan.


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Felt pretty conflicted about the whole thing.

On the one hand, their treatment of Shae as a character so far has been appalling, but on the other, her scene at the trial was very well handled.

I don't doubt for a second that she was paid and/or coerced by Cersei into giving this testimony (as evidenced by her wearing Sansa's dress) but everything that comes before makes it seem like she was doing this out of spite and jealousy, which is frankly utterly ridiculous.

I liked Shae in the books because she never lied about who she was, she was very clear that she was playing a role, very convincingly maybe, but it was still a role and Tyrion knew that, he just didn't want to see it. So I never considered Shae's testimony as a "betrayal", not anymore than Bronn refusing to fight for him. I simply saw it as a victim of horrible circumstances (a whore in a deeply misogynistic culture) trying to use what little agency she had to better her situation. I don't think any one of us could say they would've acted differently in her situation. What was she supposed to do? Lie to protect Tyrion and die? Refuse to testify and probably die as well? With the information available to her at the time, testifying against Tyrion was her ultimate act of self-preservation.

In the show, they turn the whole situation into a "hell hath no fury" kinda thing, turning the character of Shae into a terrible scorned and spiteful woman stereotype.

Anyway, I'm not surprised — I've long stopped expecting this show to depict women as people capable of making their own decisions.

And now let's watch as they somehow turn Shae's murder into a heroic act for Tyrion.

Yes! This so much, they transformed Shae from a woman with sensible motives (albeit an unintelligent person) i.e her own financial survival, into a silly emotional "you hurt my feewings" woman.

Ugh.

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