[Spoilers] Who's Cruelty is Worse, Ramsay's or Shae's?

[Uldra I]

OH LORDY! Never thought I could hate another character as much as I've hated Ramsay. But after this episode, Shae blew me away.

Her duplicity cries out evil all on its own, but then throw in the emotional cruelty she does to Tyrion on top of that... and she barely even blinked.

My word! I'm totally speechless!

What do you guys think? Who is the cruelest character in the shows for you? and or do you have any comment about the trial?

[C.T. Phipps]

I don't see Shae as having done anything particularly surprising. I think the biggest surprise in the forums is the fact the showrunners humanized Shae and showed her to have all the good qualities of a human being then treated her as exactly they've done with all of the other book characters and had them stick to their plotlines.

Shae betrayed Tyrion for mutliple reasons. It wasn't crueler than what happens with Cersei and the show has humanized her a great deal without losing her edge.

[TheEvilKing]

Ramsay, obviously.

[King Tyrion I]

They have both their ways of doing it.

But I think the way Sibel acted made pretty clear that she was "forced" to deliver her accusation. After all, Shae's just a whore - like she did repeatedly say and we know her to be.

Ramsay is both a physical and psychological torturer. He knows which buttons to press.

[salmonsnake]

I'm a bit baffled as to how this is even a question

[LizBe]

Dude, Shae's actions were horrible (even though it WAS clear she was forced to do this), but Ramsay is an extremely cruel murderer and psychological deceiver. HE KILLS FOR FUN. Yeah, how's that even a question?

[Uldra I]

I don't see Shae as having done anything particularly surprising. I think the biggest surprise in the forums is the fact the showrunners humanized Shae and showed her to have all the good qualities of a human being then treated her as exactly they've done with all of the other book characters and had them stick to their plotlines.

Shae betrayed Tyrion for mutliple reasons. It wasn't crueler than what happens with Cersei and the show has humanized her a great deal without losing her edge.

They have both their ways of doing it.

But I think the way Sibel acted made pretty clear that she was "forced" to deliver her accusation. After all, Shae's just a whore - like she did repeatedly say and we know her to be.

Ramsay is both a physical and psychological torturer. He knows which buttons to press.

You guys are right to a point, but Shae led both Tyrion and me to believe she loved him. That's why sending her away tore him up so much. It felt like the ultimate betrayal to me because she knew exactly what it would do to him. It seemed at first that she was forced to recite a script, but at the end of her lines, she glared at Tyrion saying again she was his whore, and seemed intent on giving him as much pain as possible. I don't know, I guess it's Shae's betrayal that felt so wrong. I don't believe she ever loved Tyrion. Maybe I was naïve to ever believe she did. She did seem to genuinely care about Sansa at least. Ramsay is pure evil no matter which way you look at him. But he doesn't try to deceive anyone about it either. Ramsay never claims to be anything other than what he is. He is proud of who he is. Alfie & Dinklage knocked their performances out of the park last night! Maybe that performance by Dinklage was what made me hate Shae so much at the end of his trial. She knew exactly how vulnerable he is to that kind of pain when she betrayed him too.

ETA: Shae is like a heartworm that slyly burrows it's way into the heart only to someday give you a heart attack. Ramsay is like a giant serpent that come at you right out in the open to swallow you whole. Her deception was horrible.

ETA: Guess you guys are right, it was a dumb question though. An emotional reaction to Shae at Tyrion's trial. :frown5:

[six]

Seriously? Did you see her reaction when Tyrion addressed her? She was sad and said "I'm a whore", because that's who she is, and therefore had no choice on the matter. She's a victim, too.

[MoIaF]

Seriously? Did you see her reaction when Tyrion addressed her? She was sad and said "I'm a whore", because that's who she is, and therefore had no choice on the matter. She's a victim, too.

Agreed. I have no proof of this but I think that Cersei who found out about her conspired with Tywin to grab Shae from the boat Bronn put her in and probably coerced her to do it.

This isn't book Shae, TV Shae is suppose to be more sympathetic and caring. Of course D&D could mess this up and she did a 180 and turn evil out of nowhere.

[Daenor]

I think building up Shae's character and her humanization during all the previous episodes serves two purposes:

1)Make viewers more shocked and deliver a huge nasty surprise for them(obviously i'm talking about the non-readers)

2)Create some drama.Little bit cliche one might say but it goes like that "I loved you,you betrayed me by sending me away and rejecting me so now i'll screw in the worst possible way"

[C.T. Phipps]

You guys are right to a point, but Shae led both Tyrion and me to believe she loved him. That's why sending her away tore him up so much. It felt like the ultimate betrayal to me because she knew exactly what it would do to him.

I think it's interesting to re-examine Shae's relationship with Tyrion in light of the fact the showrunners stayed 'on-script' more than a lot of fans expected. I'm inclined to think Shae was very FOND of Tyrion but I think she and he weren't capable of falling in love because of the inherent power dynamic problems. Tyrion held all the cards but the emotional ones in their relationship and Shae resented that.

Thus, she was never really able to love him as a person. Just her meal ticket.

[Daenor]

Oh and to answer the initial question obviously Ramsay.The guy is one of the worst scums of Westeros and has commited and unimaginable amount of atrocities.He enjoys inflicting pain to other people.

[The Drunkard]

I'd much rather be humiliated than have my penis and other attachments hacked off.

[six]

Agreed. I have no proof of this but I think that Cersei who found out about her conspired with Tywin to grab Shae from the boat Bron put her in and probably coerced her to do it.

This isn't book Shae, TV Shae is suppose to be more sympathetic and caring. Of course D&D could mess this up and she did a 180 and turn evil out of nowhere.

In the books as well it was Cersei who let's say persuaded Shae to testify (and obviously Tywin did his bit). IIRC Cersei says something about the fact Shae asked for marriage and other stuff in return for her testimony.

Either way, I think in the show it was clear she was left with no choice and also they broke up just before everything went down, so maybe there's a degree of pulling an Ygritte, but mostly I read it as "I'm a whore, I have no power or choice, and I'm not going down with you so I'm forced to do this to save my own skin".

[C.T. Phipps]

In the books as well it was Cersei who let's say persuaded Shae to testify (and obviously Tywin did his bit). IIRC Cersei says something about the fact Shae asked for marriage and other stuff in return for her testimony.

Either way, I think in the show it was clear she was left with no choice and also they broke up just before everything went down, so maybe there's a degree of pulling an Ygritte, but mostly I read it as "I'm a whore, I have no power or choice, and I'm not going down with you so I'm forced to do this to save my own skin".

Shae had a choice. It just wasn't a choice then. Shae stayed in a burning building despite the fact Tyrion said it was on fire for months.

Podrick had the same lack of choice but he had the decency of telling Tyrion.

[MoIaF]

In the books as well it was Cersei who let's say persuaded Shae to testify (and obviously Tywin did his bit). IIRC Cersei says something about the fact Shae asked for marriage and other stuff in return for her testimony.

Either way, I think in the show it was clear she was left with no choice and also they broke up just before everything went down, so maybe there's a degree of pulling an Ygritte, but mostly I read it as "I'm a whore, I have no power or choice, and I'm not going down with you so I'm forced to do this to save my own skin".

Yes, and I don't think people should freak out too much about it. I think they'll be able to bring it around to the books in the end. Tyrion better kill her though, I don't complain too much about the show, but it HAS whitewashed him way to much.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

I'd much rather be humiliated than have my penis and other attachments hacked off.

THIS.

[Uldra I]

I'd much rather be humiliated than have my penis and other attachments hacked off.

She might as well have removed Tyrion's penis and his heart as well.

Agreed. I have no proof of this but I think that Cersei who found out about her conspired with Tywin to grab Shae from the boat Bronn put her in and probably coerced her to do it.

This isn't book Shae, TV Shae is suppose to be more sympathetic and caring. Of course D&D could mess this up and she did a 180 and turn evil out of nowhere.

Her demanding such a generous payment even makes the betrayal worse to me. Has she ever cared about anything else besides her own prosperity?

Shae had a choice. It just wasn't a choice then. Shae stayed in a burning building despite the fact Tyrion said it was on fire for months.

Podrick had the same lack of choice but he had the decency of telling Tyrion.

:agree: Also Charles Phipps, you said:

I think it's interesting to re-examine Shae's relationship with Tyrion in light of the fact the showrunners stayed 'on-script' more than a lot of fans expected. I'm inclined to think Shae was very FOND of Tyrion but I think she and he weren't capable of falling in love because of the inherent power dynamic problems. Tyrion held all the cards but the emotional ones in their relationship and Shae resented that.

Thus, she was never really able to love him as a person. Just her meal ticket.

:bowdown: Think you pegged it for me. Thanks.

[King Tyrion I]

You guys are right to a point, but Shae led both Tyrion and me to believe she loved him. That's why sending her away tore him up so much. It felt like the ultimate betrayal to me because she knew exactly what it would do to him. It seemed at first that she was forced to recite a script, but at the end of her lines, she glared at Tyrion saying again she was his whore, and seemed intent on giving him as much pain as possible. I don't know, I guess it's Shae's betrayal that felt so wrong. I don't believe she ever loved Tyrion. Maybe I was naïve to ever believe she did. She did seem to genuinely care about Sansa at least. Ramsay is pure evil no matter which way you look at him. But he doesn't try to deceive anyone about it either. Ramsay never claims to be anything other than what he is. He is proud of who he is. Alfie & Dinklage knocked their performances out of the park last night! Maybe that performance by Dinklage was what made me hate Shae so much at the end of his trial. She knew exactly how vulnerable he is to that kind of pain when she betrayed him too.

ETA: Shae is like a heartworm that slyly burrows it's way into the heart only to someday give you a heart attack. Ramsay is like a giant serpent that come at you right out in the open to swallow you whole. Her deception was horrible.

ETA: Guess you guys are right, it was a dumb question though. An emotional reaction to Shae at Tyrion's trial. :frown5:

It wasn't a dumb question though.

But comparing a whore to a psychological unstable killer and torturer is a bit difficult.

I'd much rather be humiliated than have my penis and other attachments hacked off.

:agree: So much this as well.

In the books as well it was Cersei who let's say persuaded Shae to testify (and obviously Tywin did his bit). IIRC Cersei says something about the fact Shae asked for marriage and other stuff in return for her testimony.

Either way, I think in the show it was clear she was left with no choice and also they broke up just before everything went down, so maybe there's a degree of pulling an Ygritte, but mostly I read it as "I'm a whore, I have no power or choice, and I'm not going down with you so I'm forced to do this to save my own skin".

:agree: This is also true.

Shae had a choice. It just wasn't a choice then. Shae stayed in a burning building despite the fact Tyrion said it was on fire for months.

Podrick had the same lack of choice but he had the decency of telling Tyrion.

Indeed.

It's also this. And it's not a contradiction of the post I quoted above this. At least for me.

[Ser Few of the Fingers]

Shae's actions cannot be judged until we see the scene where Tyrion goes up the Tower of the Hand. If Shae was indeed whoring herself to Tywin, then we should understand that she never really loved Tyrion (but it will not add up; I prefered the non-bullshit "Shae is just a whore" that the books too: it is more tragic to believe that their relationship was all in Tyrion's head, and that he is really a pityful man in need of care and cuddling).