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Uldra I

[Spoilers] Who's Cruelty is Worse, Ramsay's or Shae's?

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It's Tyrion's fault for being a cold hearted prude to Shae.

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The problem is the show is trying to hit plot points, but changing the characterisation so much that the actions of the characters make little sense.

Also, Ramsay. Murder, rape and sadism being slightly worse than embarrassing a former John.

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What a silly question....



Maybe I'm giving the actress too much credit, but she really seemed to be afraid and nervous, especially at the beginning and her testimony seemed to be rehearsed, like she was reciting it. She was constantly looking at Tywin as if she was looking for his approval for her 'acting'. We've had a scene where Tywin orders her to be brought to the tower of the hand. To me, it seems she was forced by Tywin to testify. Maybe he threatened her with death or she made a deal with him that he would spare Tyrion's life if he was found guilty with her help. I'm expecting a scene between her and Tywin to explain what she did, it just makes no sense for her character to betray Tyrion so severely just because he called her a whore.


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What a silly question....

Maybe I'm giving the actress too much credit, but she really seemed to be afraid and nervous, especially at the beginning and her testimony seemed to be rehearsed, like she was reciting it. She was constantly looking at Tywin as if she was looking for his approval for her 'acting'. We've had a scene where Tywin orders her to be brought to the tower of the hand. To me, it seems she was forced by Tywin to testify. Maybe he threatened her with death or she made a deal with him that he would spare Tyrion's life if he was found guilty with her help. I'm expecting a scene between her and Tywin to explain what she did, it just makes no sense for her character to betray Tyrion so severely just because he called her a whore.

It all depends on who is going to kill Shae.

Will D&D go for the shock value of having Tyrion do it, or will they stick with white hat Dinklage and have his father do it or have it done, thus giving him a better reason for patricide.

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I was wondering about something - as Shae is talking we see Tywin far more than Cersei.

In the book it is Cersei who manipulated Shae to testify. The show has tendency to whitewash Cersei - will Shae betrayal be completely attributed to Tywin? He did seem to be looking at her curiously during this trial and Cersei informed him of Shae a while back. Perhaps Cersei was still the one, but Tywin/Shae relations start after the trial and this is why those looks were showed. He also wasn't as disgusted as good old Tywin would be about whores, wasn't he?

I always wondered about Tywin - did he bed many whores? Did he bed this one because it was his son's? Did he really hate him this much? I wonder what they'll do on the show - on one hand we have Tywin trying to spare Tyrion's life. But why have Shae testify then, if he is indeed behind it?

I hope the show goes into greater detail considering how and when Shae and Tywin started as I was always confused by that in the book.

In another thread someone suggested that since it is known that a Hand of the King built the secret tunnel to Alayaya's brothel, this person suggested it may have be Tywin who built it. No proof of that of course. Tywin probably had as many whores as Tyrion, but just hid it better. :dunno:

Also, as the OP, I agree now that Ramsay is much worse than Shae... Right after the show, I was so angry with her character. An overreaction I think and partly due to the fact I have met more than a couple real life women like that. Sorry for raging on the forums about her. :dunce: There have been some really thoughtful responses though, and interesting tangents too. Varys testimony shocked me as well. Another person I thought Tyrion could trust. Thinking on it a bit IIRC Varys did warn Tyrion that he would not lie for him. Now, I wonder what my reaction to the "hands of gold are always cold" scene. :P

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It all depends on who is going to kill Shae.

Will D&D go for the shock value of having Tyrion do it, or will they stick with white hat Dinklage and have his father do it or have it done, thus giving him a better reason for patricide.

With Shae's different character on the show they actually have the potential for some Greek tragedy level drama if Tyrion does kill her (because what reason does Tywin have to kill her now, she did her part). What if she really made a deal with Tywin to get Tyrion sent to the Wall for her testimony and after the trial of combat she agrees to offer her services to Tywin in exchange for mercy for Tyrion. Then Tyrion finds her in Tywin's bed, doesn't let her explain herself and kills her and right before he kills Tywin, Tywin tells him that Shae did it all just to save him. Tyrion shoots his father with a crossbow and turns around to look at the woman he loved, and who loved him, and realizes what he's done. This would be so much heavier than what happened in the books. It would also make Tyrion's whining in the future more bearable (I couldn't stand him in ADWD).

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Tyrion: Please don't do this


Shae: I'm a whore. Remember?



There's a little catch in Shae's voice that you miss in part. Also the camera pans to her after she starts the line, but her sadness and bitterness is there. Can you blame the bitch? I have no problem with what she did in the show. Tyrion hurt her cruelly; regardless of whether she might have known it was for her own good, that shit had to hurt like hell when he dismissed her. He once called her, his lady. she reminded him she was a whore, but he made her feel otherwise. I'm not mystified by what she did and think TV Shae did love Tyrion. Why be jealous of Sansa if Shae didn't have to be cause she didn't give a shit about Tyrion? Turning on Sansa at trial was BS, but again, I'm sure she felt pressure to say the two planned it just like Varys had to emphasize how Tyrion didn't cheer when Robb died.



ETA: one part of the timeline does confuse me. She's supposed to be brought to the Hand's tower. I assume somehow that happened afterward. Then later Bronn swears she's on a ship - did he lie for Tyrion's good or another motive? What's his role in Shae's appearance at trial?



Ramsay is a billion times worse than Shae. He causes physical and emotional scars. To see Theon rejecting his own name and family, that shit was just pitiful.


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With Shae's different character on the show they actually have the potential for some Greek tragedy level drama if Tyrion does kill her (because what reason does Tywin have to kill her now, she did her part). What if she really made a deal with Tywin to get Tyrion sent to the Wall for her testimony and after the trial of combat she agrees to offer her services to Tywin in exchange for mercy for Tyrion. Then Tyrion finds her in Tywin's bed, doesn't let her explain herself and kills her and right before he kills Tywin, Tywin tells him that Shae did it all just to save him. Tyrion shoots his father with a crossbow and turns around to look at the woman he loved, and who loved him, and realizes what he's done. This would be so much heavier than what happened in the books. It would also make Tyrion's whining in the future more bearable (I couldn't stand him in ADWD).

I like it. Which suggests that D&D will do something else, but it's good and gets around him killing the good hearted TV Shae that luvs him.

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I always assumed Shae was coerced into speaking out against Tyrion. I think she actually loved him like he loved her, but when faced with death or speak out against Tyrion and get get gold and sleep with the most powerful man in the Seven Kingdoms, she chose not to lose her head.



It was a mean thing to do to Tyrion, especially emotionally, but let's face it, Ramsay hunts girls and flays people for fun. Much, much, much crueler.


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Ramsay is certainly crueler... But with all of show Shae's declarations of, "I'm not afraid of you family" I feel like its out of charachter for the show version of her. Also I could be alone in this, but I'm kind of ticked that she just threw poor Sansa under the bus. Tyrion hurt her alright I can accept that. But the show has portrayed her as being pretty protective of Sansa. They gave show Shae so much fight and spunk that it's a weird turn around. She didnt appear to have been hurt or anything seems very out of character for show Shae


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Wasn't there a scene in the previous couple of episodes where Bronn explicitly tells Tyrion that he put Shae on a ship to Essos? The fact that she's back then bugs me; did she come back on her own (either for the purpose of testifying against Tyrion or for some other reason) or was she grabbed/kidnapped by the Lannisters? Varys had a spy following Bronn and Shae and we know that Cersei and Tywin knew about her and knew what she looked like from that same episode after a maid tells on her. If the latter, it would strengthen the argument that Shae was coerced, if it turns out that she was dragged back by the Lannisters to testify.



I'm not sure either way though. The show and the actress did a good job of making it seem ambiguous; there were bits where it felt as if she was reading from a script, and bits where it sounded like she was saying this stuff out of her own prsonal anger and frustration.



Oh, and obviously Ramsay is crueler. Shae is at worst a perjurer; Ramsay is literally a serial killer, like Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy. No comparison.


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Ramsey is pure evil.



Shae is just an unfortunate woman who thinks she is smarter than all the men around her but is very soon going to learn the horrible truth that she has no power, no sway, and absolutely no worth in the Lannister realm. She will realize too late that the man who treated her the best is the one she just testified against.


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Ramsey is pure evil.

Shae is just an unfortunate woman who thinks she is smarter than all the men around her but is very soon going to learn the horrible truth that she has no power, no sway, and absolutely no worth in the Lannister realm. She will realize too late that the man who treated her the best is the one she just testified against.

Alas, yes.

The thing about Ramsay's cruelty is that this is what he is like all the time. The "kick you when you're down" element does not shock the audience when it comes from the likes of him. Ramsay would kick you when you're down, or up, or even pick you up just to enjoy kicking you again.

Cruelty is more shocking coming from Shae, because the idea that she would reach down into the depths of her most intimate times with Tyrion and use that to psychologically disembowel him in public does not match our prior assessment of her character. (As I said before, in the books, the element of humiliation is much stronger in that scene. Show Shae is hurt; book Shae is callously mocking him.)

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Show Shae is hurt; book Shae is callously mocking him.)

True. Book Shae was more manipulative, but I do not recall her being evil-cruel like Ramsey. TV Shae seems more sympathetic.

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To be fair. Ramsay is doing his for the sheer pleasure of it, he is in control. Shae is just trying to survive.


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Ramsay hurt a lot of people and enjoys it. Shae hurt one person and it is unclear whether she did it on purpose. Of course it's Ramsay.


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The fact that you can even compare Shae with Ramsay in any context is mind-boggling.

self obsessed narcissistic teenage boys operate under the belief that their feelings are paramount and more important than anything else

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