Nitpick With Impunity: Goat Edition

[Le Cygne]

Can i ask what you mean by "saint tyrion whitewashing" ?

You've got to be kidding. Read the last two dozen nitpick threads. Full of examples.

The author calls him the grayest of the gray characters. Have we seen that?

[Lord Thornhart]

How was he portrayed as evil in this episode, he literally sat in a bank, and discussed getting a loan. You guys crack me up with some of these complaints.

Because he still wants the throne out of greed and lust, not law and duty. The "bitch make me sound important while I glare at the wall" look he gave Davos is bad too. Stannis did not advance his character at all by justifying himself and is still the guy who thought burning his nephew would make dragon statues come alive and fight for him.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

There are perfectly valid and logical reasons why Asha would retreat at that point, and there is a clear parallel to draw between this scene and the last time she tried to rescue Theon (season 2, trying to convince him to retreat from Winterfell). She can't save him if he won't save himself, not gonna throw her own life away for nothing, etc.

HOWEVER.

The show clearly did not do a good enough job of explaining/illustrating that for people. One of Asha's mooks did start to have a line about them running out of time, which is correct: she doesn't have a massive, overwhelming invasion force, this is a small crack force. It's a commando raid, in and out quickly. Once the alarm bells start going off and the dogs start barking and the superior numbers of the Dreadfort get roused and can put the place on lockdown they are vastly outnumbered and have No Way Out. Or at least, we can PRESUME that, being logical human beings with critical thinking skills, with no thanks to the show, which chose not to show this.

Instead, the Ironborn look like the Keystone Kops Vikings and run away just because Ramsay's about to SMITHERS RELEASE THE HOUNDS. Thousands of characters (usually villains, admittedly) have been in Asha's position before and sworn "this isn't over, I'll be back" at the end of an episode where they are FOILED AGAIN. That would've gone a long way. There's a difference between giving up for now and giving up for good. The former is logical. The latter just makes her early AwesomeSpeech look stupid.

And really, it's all symptomatic of the show painting itself into a corner in the first place with this storyline. Theon can't get rescued and Asha can't get captured and Ramsay can't be the one to run away because it's his home field.

At least Asha got to fuck a couple people up with AxeHusband. Finally.

[solidviper]

Yes, it was overacted. Chewing up the scenery. As someone said, Charles Dance just makes a move and he upstages him.

What? I thought it was really well done, though Charles Dance is amazing. I think the writers are doing exactly what I thought as far as making Tyrion do a complete 180 into the dark, and I think Shae was the straw that broke the camel's back. That's why it felt shocking or overacted. That's not Peter's fault, it's a writing decision.

[Phil Sand]

You've got to be kidding. Read the last two dozen nitpick threads. Full of examples.

The author calls him the grayest of the gray characters. Have we seen that?

i will read the last two nitpick threads but saying that someone else called him "the grayest of the gray characters" doesn't really help answer my question.

[Nictarion]

Because he still wants the throne out of greed and lust, not law and duty. The "bitch make me sound important while I glare at the wall" look he gave Davos is bad too. Stannis did not advance his character at all by justifying himself and is still the guy who thought burning his nephew would make dragon statues come alive and fight for him.

Still don't see how that showed him as evil? Maybe a bit of a loser, but not evil. The last part has nothing to do with this episode, and is in the books so don't see what the issue with the show doing it is?

[boojam]

Can i ask what you mean by "saint tyrion whitewashing" ?

I have read the books and watched the show from the beginning, and there is a subset of people on this forum who don't like Dave and Dan's take on Tryion, it's goofy to me that they call it white washing, but Peter is a different Tyrion from the books.

What I see is that Dan and Dave have taken Peter's personality and integrated it into his acting skills, as visual media he is , to my mind, a Tyrion with more dimensions than in the books, and that's fine with me.

The horse has bolted the barn and some people won't let it go.

[RoamingRonin]

Once again Stannis is portrayed as a one dimensional evil guy because the Unsullied audience are too stupid to understand a complex character and the writers are too stupid to make one.

I stopped reading right here. You people whine so much about something you didn't create as if the writers owe you something. TV audiences are a lot smarter than people give them credit.

[Nictarion]

i will read the last two nitpick threads but saying that someone else called him "the grayest of the gray characters" doesn't really help answer my question.

He has been horribly whitewashed on the show. He's really the only character I think has been. Tyrion did a lot of fucked up things in the books that the show hasn't included.

[LordStoneheart]

snip

Did you quote the wrong person? I didn't say anything about Tyrion, and I know that he's been sugar-coated into a dwarfsicle.

[David Selig]

I have read the books and watched the show from the beginning, and there is a subset of people on this forum who don't like Dave and Dan's take on Tryion, it's goofy to me that they call it white washing, but Peter is a different Tyrion from the books.

It is undeniably whitewashing, they have not included pretty much of all of his morally questionable or plain morally wrong acts except the ones which are really indispensable for the plot (like sticking with his family until now).

I made a thread about it some time ago, with examples from the first two seasons, and since then the trend has continued - http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/67018-book-spoilers-the-whitewashing-of-tyrion/

[Lord Thornhart]

Still don't see how that showed him as evil? Maybe a bit of a loser, but not evil. The last part has nothing to do with this episode, and is in the books so don't see what the issue with the show doing it is?

He has been treating his bestfriend like a bitch for 2 seasons and continues to do so. They did not advance his character from the early propaganda, so nothing has changed. Stannis did not think killing Edric would do anything in the books, he told his wife he wouldn't kill his family when she got on her knees and begged him to. In the TV show, Stannis actually says burning his nephew will make him a king. So much facepalm.

I stopped reading right here. You people whine so much about something you didn't create as if the writers owe you something. TV audiences are a lot smarter than people give them credit.

If they are intentionally ruining characters because they don't like them, they are mediocre writers and deserve to be ridiculed.

[Nictarion]

I have read the books and watched the show from the beginning, and there is a subset of people on this forum who don't like Dave and Dan's take on Tryion, it's goofy to me that they call it white washing, but Peter is a different Tyrion from the books.

What I see is that Dan and Dave have taken Peter's personality and integrated it into his acting skills, as visual media he is , to my mind, a Tyrion with more dimensions than in the books, and that's fine with me.

The horse has bolted the barn and some people won't let it go.

:shocked: This couldn't be further from the truth. Show Tyrion is a typical fantasy hero who hasn't done anything bad in 3 & 1/2 seasons, book Tyrion is a much more complex character.

[Phil Sand]

He has been horribly whitewashed on the show. He's really the only character I think has been. Tyrion did a lot of fucked up things in the books that the show hasn't included.

i'm not trying to say he hasn't been white washed in the show I'm just asking for the examples of when he has been whitewashed.

[Le Cygne]

i will read the last two nitpick threads but saying that someone else called him "the grayest of the gray characters" doesn't really help answer my question.

The author = anyone? George R.R. Martin? Grayest of the gray means not saintly, quite the reverse. He's being portrayed as Ned II on the show, only smarter, and as Margaery pointed out, quite likely a better lover. Let me ask you the reverse, has he done anything wrong on the show, or if he has, has it actually been shown as wrong? Or is he just the victim of others.

[The Drunkard]

He has been treating his bestfriend like a bitch for 2 seasons and continues to do so. They did not advance his character from the early propaganda, so nothing has changed. Stannis did not think killing Edric would do anything in the books, he told his wife he wouldn't kill his family when she got on her knees and begged him to. In the TV show, Stannis actually says burning his nephew will make him a king. So much facepalm.

I'm not sure if I'm reading you wrong, but while book Stannis starts out much as you described, completely against the sacrifice, once all three kings have been seemingly slain by R'hllor he reaches the point where he's ready to kill him.

"[Edric] is one boy! He may be the best boy who ever drew breath and it would not matter. My duty is to the realm." His hand swept across the Painted Table. "How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies . . . a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone . . . she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?" He ground his teeth. "We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must . . . we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty."

"I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning . . . burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?" The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King's Landing. "If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?"

"You swear there is no other way? Swear it on your life, for I promise, you shall die by inches if you lie."

"If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark . . . Sacrifice . . . is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice. Tell him, my lady."

All pretty random lines to include if he was never considering it. I do agree though, that the way they made him come to this decision was pretty poor. Giving Melisandre permission as soon as Gendry arrived on the island was stupid.

[Rooseman]

I really didn't like how Varys reported about Daenerys at the counsel meeting.

Whatever his true agenda might be, he definitely doesn't want the 7 kingdoms to unite and prepare for an invasion. But this is exactly what he does, when he portrays Daenerys as a danger that has to be taken seriously.

In the books, he's more like "Some sailors talked about seeing a kraken on the shore, in Qarth there's talk of dragons, and beyond the wall they claim to have seen some snarks as well"

But on the show, he gives a detailed report about Daenerys' strength. He talks about her three dragons, and when Cersei waves it off "Three small dragons..." he responds that they're growing every year. Actively making them more cautious, where they would remain oblivious if he just kept his mouth shut.

[Phil Sand]

The author = anyone? George R.R. Martin? Grayest of the gray means not saintly, quite the reverse. He's being portrayed as Ned II on the show, only smarter, and as Margaery pointed out, quite likely a better lover. Let me ask you the reverse, has he done anything wrong on the show, or if he has, has it actually been shown as wrong? Or is he just the victim of others.

i asked you a simple question i was not trying to be offensive i was merely curious, The show and the books are entirely different entities, and finally up until ADWD i did not find anything wrong with Tyrion that was why i was asking a question.

[Seer of Green]

I thought the dragon scene was confusing. It was quite unclear who the dragon burned. The camera is focused on the boy the whole scene. Then the guy drops some nondescript bones on the floor.

I think they were trying to keep it vague until the guy said goat, but it didn't work that well.

You kinda had to be looking for it but you could clearly see the goat's horns. Had I focused on the ribcage first, I would've thought them tge child's bones. And even though I saw the horns first, the ribcage did give me pause. I can't remember but when Hazzea's father presented the bones to Dany in the book, wasn't there goat remains mixed in with Hazzea's? Or was it just Hazzea's? Dany doesn't realize at first, is it because she knows he's a goatherder and therefore assumed the remains to be those of a goat or did she actually see some goat remains?

[boojam]

Did you quote the wrong person? I didn't say anything about Tyrion, and I know that he's been sugar-coated into a dwarfsicle.

I did.