[Book Spoilers] Varys/Oberyn conversation

[pardalis]

I love this scene, and the discussion it has spawned. I’m also convinced it was moved from another episode, which could color the interpretation.

Look at Oberyn’s and Varys’ costumes in their first scene in 4x06, the small council meeting:

- Oberyn is wearing his yellow overcoat with embroidered suns and yellow undertunic. The inside and outside layers are almost the same color.

- Varys is wearing a dark coat which we don’t see too clearly.

Moving to the second scene in 4x06, the throne room conversation:

- Oberyn is now wearing a different coat with a flowery pattern and an orange undertunic. The inner layer is clearly orange, in contrast to the yellow coat. (It’s only because I paused to admire this coat that I noticed it doesn’t match the first scene.)

- Varys is wearing a dark coat with flowery embroidery. It could be the same coat as in the first scene.

Now we have the third scene in 4x06, the trial.

- Oberyn is back to the yellow on yellow, embroidered suns combo.

- Varys is wearing a dark coat, looks flowery. Looks like the same as both of the other scenes.

For part two of the trial, both characters wear the same clothes as the start of the trial.

So, either Oberyn changed clothes just to meet Varys (wouldn’t put anything past him), there is a wardrobe continuity glitch, or the scene was moved from another episode.

I suspect the scene was lifted from 4x05. The costumes match those from the coronation.

- Oberyn is seen very briefly as Tommen is crowned. He’s standing between Tywin and Cersei. We don’t see much of him, but the inner layer is clearly orange and darker than the outer layer.

- Varys is seen briefly, approaching the throne with Mace to bow to Tommen after the crowning. It’s a dark, flowery embroidered robe that looks the same as in 4x06.

I think the Varys-Oberyn scene is great in 4x06. It gains a lot of subtext from being placed between the small council meeting and the trial. But it would add an interesting spin to the scene if it had originally happen just before or just after the coronation. In that case, Varys looking pointedly at the Irone Throne could be referring specifically to Tommen (a misdirection for Oberyn – but recognizable to readers foreknowledge of the later books), as opposed to power in general, or hinting at a future occupant like Aegon.

[Clariana]

Always seemed to me he was asexual, but others make various jokes about him ranging from homosexuality to pedophilia because they have no idea how to react to someone who isn't interested in sex in any way.

Yes! I think this is the scene where Varys comes out as ASEXUAL, and it's not necessarily because he's a eunuch.

Oberyn is desperately attempting to get a handle on the guy, and he on Oberyn, neither are fooled by the other's appearance, venal, carnal, superficial prince, ineffective, effeminate master of spies... Varys is extremely taken aback by Oberyn's identification of him as Lyseni, and more, a Lyseni who's worked to suppress his accent. But Oberyn fails his second try.

Varys pumps Oberyn for what he knows about Essos and then slaps him down for his "man of the people act" (or is Varys hinting he's a prince too?).

Methinks they dance about the central issue, they are both aware of the gamechanger that is Danearys and they would both support her. 1-1 and allies under the skin.

[theseven]

Yes! I think this is the scene where Varys comes out as ASEXUAL, and it's not necessarily because he's a eunuch.

Oberyn is desperately attempting to get a handle on the guy, and he on Oberyn, neither are fooled by the other's appearance, venal, carnal, superficial prince, ineffective, effeminate master of spies... Varys is extremely taken aback by Oberyn's identification of him as Lyseni, and more, a Lyseni who's worked to suppress his accent. But Oberyn fails his second try.

Varys pumps Oberyn for what he knows about Essos and then slaps him down for his "man of the people act" (or is Varys hinting he's a prince too?).

Methinks they dance about the central issue, they are both aware of the gamechanger that is Danearys and they would both support her. 1-1 and allies under the skin.

I very agree with you, I will add only that Oberyn's comment about Varys lack of Lyseni accent could be a hint to the viewer to doubt what Varys has told about his origin.

[7th-key]

I'm guessing the writers are tired of hearing people complain about how mustache-twirly Littlefinger is, so they wanted to show an actual mustache being twirled...

Bad directing, that "nod" just kills the whole scene. Varys should have just walked forward (and to right of Prince Oberyn) so that Oberyn had to turn to keep looking at Varys, and then have the throne in the background. That way, we (the audience) can see what's meant but it doesn't look like Varys is giving Oberyn any insight.

:thumbs up:

Indeed, the scene ended that way would have been perfect.

[Tixu Oty]

I have to agree with this. Seems like the general consensus of the board is that HBO is going to delve into the nuances of Aegon and Blackfyre, and I just don't see that happening. HBO will not bet the franchise on some unknown kid and storyline coming out on top.

I think part of the problem is that everyone here knows the books so well that you've figured out the endings before Martin has written them! I know many book readers that if I mentioned Blackfyre and this whole Aegon theory, they'd have no idea what I'm talking about. And don't get me wrong, all these therories are great fun and in terms of the books you're probably correct, but I don't see HBO delving into that level of minutia. This series already contains too many characters for the typcial TV goer to digest. Maybe the books will have a different ending, but at the end of the day the HBO show will have Jon, Dany, Tyrion or Stannis vying for the throne, with Varys and/or Petyr Baelish somewhere in the mix.

Well I'd say that IF Aegon turns out to be a Blackfyre AND if that detail actually matters, then yes, I'm sure the show will explain it in sufficient detail. But otherwise, yeah, I don't see them going out of their way to give us the backstory if it's not absolutely essential.

I love this scene, and the discussion it has spawned. I’m also convinced it was moved from another episode, which could color the interpretation.

Look at Oberyn’s and Varys’ costumes in their first scene in 4x06, the small council meeting:

- Oberyn is wearing his yellow overcoat with embroidered suns and yellow undertunic. The inside and outside layers are almost the same color.

- Varys is wearing a dark coat which we don’t see too clearly.

Moving to the second scene in 4x06, the throne room conversation:

- Oberyn is now wearing a different coat with a flowery pattern and an orange undertunic. The inner layer is clearly orange, in contrast to the yellow coat. (It’s only because I paused to admire this coat that I noticed it doesn’t match the first scene.)

- Varys is wearing a dark coat with flowery embroidery. It could be the same coat as in the first scene.

Now we have the third scene in 4x06, the trial.

- Oberyn is back to the yellow on yellow, embroidered suns combo.

- Varys is wearing a dark coat, looks flowery. Looks like the same as both of the other scenes.

For part two of the trial, both characters wear the same clothes as the start of the trial.

So, either Oberyn changed clothes just to meet Varys (wouldn’t put anything past him), there is a wardrobe continuity glitch, or the scene was moved from another episode.

I suspect the scene was lifted from 4x05. The costumes match those from the coronation.

- Oberyn is seen very briefly as Tommen is crowned. He’s standing between Tywin and Cersei. We don’t see much of him, but the inner layer is clearly orange and darker than the outer layer.

- Varys is seen briefly, approaching the throne with Mace to bow to Tommen after the crowning. It’s a dark, flowery embroidered robe that looks the same as in 4x06.

I think the Varys-Oberyn scene is great in 4x06. It gains a lot of subtext from being placed between the small council meeting and the trial. But it would add an interesting spin to the scene if it had originally happen just before or just after the coronation. In that case, Varys looking pointedly at the Irone Throne could be referring specifically to Tommen (a misdirection for Oberyn – but recognizable to readers foreknowledge of the later books), as opposed to power in general, or hinting at a future occupant like Aegon.

That's a nice observation and I only watched it once but I seem to remember that when Oberyn and Varys have this discussion, the throne room is at least partially ready for the trial. Wouldn't that be a bit off if the scene had been shot as part of "First of his name"?

[DaveyJoe]

Did anybody else get the impression that Varys was kind of growing impatient with Oberyn? The unemotional shaking of his head when Oberyn asked about his sexuality, the barb he threw at Oberyn when he said "not everybody is a prince." Oberyn's strutting around but he was born into his position of power whereas Varys has had to fight and climb to get where he is today. When he looked at the throne I saw it as Varys just giving a predictable answer so maybe Oberyn would leave him alone.

[Chatty Duelist]

Egg the Megg is coming.

[Mad Monkey]

Did anybody else get the impression that Varys was kind of growing impatient with Oberyn? The unemotional shaking of his head when Oberyn asked about his sexuality, the barb he threw at Oberyn when he said "not everybody is a prince." Oberyn's strutting around but he was born into his position of power whereas Varys has had to fight and climb to get where he is today. When he looked at the throne I saw it as Varys just giving a predictable answer so maybe Oberyn would leave him alone.

Agreed. I feel like Varys gets these kinds of questions a lot; I feel like it happens at least once a season (I remember Littlefinger, Shae, and Tyrion doing this to him on separate occasions) and he probably finds it somewhat irritating now. It's like, "YES, I know I am a eunuch. Trust me, I was there, it's not something that you just forgot. Stop bringing it up." He even underlines it during the trial scene when he says (to Tyrion) something along the lines of, "Sadly, I never forget a thing,"

When Varys files his hostile-environment sexual harassment suit against the Iron Throne, it will be these conversations that come up.

[DaveyJoe]

Oberyn wanted a new title, maybe they made him Master of HR.

[Clariana]

Did anybody else get the impression that Varys was kind of growing impatient with Oberyn? The unemotional shaking of his head when Oberyn asked about his sexuality, the barb he threw at Oberyn when he said "not everybody is a prince." Oberyn's strutting around but he was born into his position of power whereas Varys has had to fight and climb to get where he is today. When he looked at the throne I saw it as Varys just giving a predictable answer so maybe Oberyn would leave him alone.

Yeah, perhaps he expected better of Oberyn after Ob's first hit... To use chess terms, great opening, poor mid-game, stalemate.

[Sultan of Westeros]

Iron throne signifies power more than anything else, remember that varys quote that power resides where man believe it does, when he points to throne it means he is pursuing power.

[Bear Island]

I felt like they made a bit of a blunder with Varys this episode.

First he reports accurately on Dany, which makes no sense for book readers who know he wants Aegon to ally with Dany.

Then, he tips his hand to Oberyn and makes it seem like he desires the throne to the Unsullied, when book readers know he's talking about Aegon.

It was a weird episode. I'm all for adding Oberyn into as many scenes as possible, but those scenes were just weird.

[igrewupinKL]

I felt like they made a bit of a blunder with Varys this episode.

First he reports accurately on Dany, which makes no sense for book readers who know he wants Aegon to ally with Dany.

Then, he tips his hand to Oberyn and makes it seem like he desires the throne to the Unsullied, when book readers know he's talking about Aegon.

It was a weird episode. I'm all for adding Oberyn into as many scenes as possible, but those scenes were just weird.

YES! thankyou, i feel like the only one :agree:

[The Eunuch]

First he reports accurately on Dany, which makes no sense for book readers who know he wants Aegon to ally with Dany.

Then, he tips his hand to Oberyn and makes it seem like he desires the throne to the Unsullied, when book readers know he's talking about Aegon.

Varys reported to Robert's council about Dany (and he set up a fake assassination). If the master of whisperers doesn't report about a new queen with dragons, it would be suspect...

And once again, looking at the throne doesn't mean he wants it for himself. The Unsullied will remember his iconic riddle to Tyrion about power and who really holds it. Plus, it seems clear now that Tommen is Tywin's pawn, even for the Unsullied. To sum up : when Varys looks at the throne, it means power.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

This conversation really brought to the fore my belief that Varys should have told Oberyn about Aegon during this time. If anyone would be a help to Varys it would be the Dornish prince. And yet Varys just allows the guy to go into a pretty pointless fight with the Mountain without knowing anything.

Even if he didn't reveal the full details, Oberyn might not have thrown his life away.

Good point, this is always the way in any book or story oh if only he had told him. However i gotta believe that this fight is Oberyn's style he is not the war type he handles his business himself and would probably love the audience. I'm sure the Red Viper would be excited for his long lost nephew but nothing would stop him from avenging his sister he loved to death. Fighting the man who beat raped and murdered her and her children is the only satisfaction Oberyn desires in my eyes.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

Clever show viewers will remember back to season 1 when Varys and Illyrio were talking about "putting a dragon on the throne" which Arya hears in the tunnels under the Red Keep.

Not so clever show viewers won't even notice the comment.

For book readers it foreshadows Aegon.

Very nice catch, i am now believing that most of the things in the show are the important things in the book they have to be a bit more open with the hints on tv.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

I posted the following post in an area i was not supposed to sorry guys i'm new.

I'll post it here it relates to this topic.

For those who watch the show you will remember the episode where Varys attempts to pay Shae to leave Kings Landing. In this scene he points out that the two of them are the same as in they are both born with one name and that they have no surname.

Myself like many on this board believe he is a Targaryen or Blackfyre and that he lost his man hood because of this.

The name Varys definitely sounds Targ like Aerys and Viserys put together


I would also like to bring something to the board i noticed Sunday night during the Oberyn and Varys Throne room scene. i'm not sure who wrote the episode but that scene was very George R.R. Martin. I couldn't help but feel like Oberyn was acting like Varys was a Prince he gave him a smirk that sold me maybe i'm nuts:

Oberyn : " most of us live and die in the same corner of our world and never get to see any of it. I don't wan't to be most of us ! "

Varys : " Most of us aren't Prince's ! "

At Varys statement Prince Oberyn gives the smirk that leads me to believe he knows exactly who Varys is, i recommend everyone watch it again.
After Oberyn smirks and laughs at Varys statement he starts to pick Varys past apart asking questions he already knows which is what today's generation of wise men do.



I would like to now take everyone back to the beginning of the scene which directly relates to this topic and also has a conspiracy attached to it lol.

Varys : " Prince Oberyn "

Oberyn : " Lord Varys "

Varys : "Only Varys, i'm not actually a noble man no one is under obligation to cal me Lord"

Oberyn : " and yet everyone does "

Varys : smirks and shrugs

after this the quotes i posted before these ones come.

Now what is so interesting about this conversation ? Well for those of you who have read the Dunk and Egg book called the " Mystery Knight" you wil remember this passage :

Dunk : "My squire is missing."

Daemon Blackfyre II ( John the Fiddler) : "Ran off with a girl, perhaps?"

Dunk : "Egg's too young for girls, m'lord. He would never leave me of his own will. Even if I were dying,

he would stay until my corpse was cold. His horse is still here. So is our mule."

Daemon Blackfyre II ( John the Fiddler) : "If you like, I could ask my men to look for him."

Dunk : My men. Dunk did not like the sound of that. A tourney for traitors, he thought. "You are no

hedge knight."

Daemon Blackfyre II ( John the Fiddler) : "No." The Fiddler's smile was full of boyish charm. "But you knew that from the start. You have

been calling me m'lord since we met upon the road, why is that?"

I can not help but feel that this is connected some how maybe i'm crazy but i just felt like the whole scene hinted at Varys being a Prince, like it's in him no matter what his name or title is.

I want to buy the Aerion Brightflame had a child in Lys story but for some reason i feel like i read somewhere that GRRM said Aerion didnt' remain in exile for ever.

I know the show is different but Joffrey has his ashes in the show and the fact that he died drinking wildfire leads me to believe he dies in Kings Landing and the fact that the Council even considered his only son an option for the throne makes me think he could not have been low born or still in Lys or a bastard for that matter.

"Over there in that urn, the ashes of Aerion Targaryen. Aerion Brightflame they called him. He thought drinking wildfire would turn him into a dragon: he was wrong." ―King Joffrey Baratheon points out what little remains of Aerion in the Great Sept of Baelor^[src]

[Uldra I]

...

At Varys statement Prince Oberyn gives the smirk that leads me to believe he knows exactly who Varys is, i recommend everyone watch it again.

After Oberyn smirks and laughs at Varys statement he starts to pick Varys past apart asking questions he already knows which is what today's generation of wise men do.

...

I can not help but feel that this is connected some how maybe i'm crazy but i just felt like the whole scene hinted at Varys being a Prince, like it's in him no matter what his name or title is.

....

First welcome to the forums :cheers:

Second a very interesting and well thought out theory.

I like it because it is something I've been suspecting for a long time now, but never had even an inkling for an argument as to how I got the idea. Guess, it popped in my head that Varys was actually a lost Targ prince since that is the only thing I could think of that would explain his motivation to dedicate his life to seeing another Targ back on the throne. Some theorys suggest Varys was a loyal servant to the Targs, but that just rings hollow to me. Seems like any faithful servants of the Targs would have just lost interest in any power plays for the Iron Throne by 15/16 years after Robert's Rebellion. Your post throws a little more weight behind my own assumptions. Hope we are right. We'll see. :)

ETA: Exception to everyone losing interest in IT: Jon Con, but who knows maybe he's got ulterior motives behind his support of the mummer's dragon.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

I feel Jon Connington was the perfect guy for illyrio to seek out to train Aegon and if he were to ever arrive in Westeros with Aegon it legitimizes the claim or at least makes it a little more believable.

When i think of Jon Connington i have to go back to the Dunk and Egg books again and pare Young Griff (Aegon) with Ser John the Fiddler (Daemon Blackfyre II) and Jon Connington with Alyn Cockshaw. Connington was in love with Aegon's supposed father Rhaegar and lost everything fighting for him, Alyn Cockshaw was in love with Daemon Blackfyre II and his family lost almost everything fighting for his family. In the end both men would end up supporting a rebellion for these young Princes.

[Uldra I]

I feel Jon Connington was the perfect guy for illyrio to seek out to train Aegon and if he were to ever arrive in Westeros with Aegon it legitimizes the claim or at least makes it a little more believable.

When i think of Jon Connington i have to go back to the Dunk and Egg books again and pare Young Griff (Aegon) with Ser John the Fiddler (Daemon Blackfyre II) and Jon Connington with Alyn Cockshaw. Connington was in love with Aegon's supposed father Rhaegar and lost everything fighting for him, Alyn Cockshaw was in love with Daemon Blackfyre II and his family lost almost everything fighting for his family. In the end both men would end up supporting a rebellion for these young Princes.

Okay, I've been trying to save money and wait for the compendium of D&E, but now I don't know if I can hold out much longer. :lol: