Hielo y Fuego Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I really can't see why almost everyone here thinks that Varys' unspoken reply could be about Aegon. It could easily be about Dany, since to this point (in the show and the books alike) nobody knew the first thing about Aegon, but we all knew that Varys was backing up Dany. It could easily continue to be that way in the show, which means Aegon could still be cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I really can't see why almost everyone here thinks that Varys' unspoken reply could be about Aegon. It could easily be about Dany, since to this point (in the show and the books alike) nobody knew the first thing about Aegon, but we all knew that Varys was backing up Dany. It could easily continue to be that way in the show, which means Aegon could still be cut. i didnt consider this, but the show might actually decide to cut out Aegon to save time so they can wrap up the rest in 3 seasons... which mean...stiil lots of stuff to look forward to in the next decade it will take GRRM to finish ADoS :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand11751 Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Varys doesn't reveal these little nuggets about himself so with the nod to the throne, Aegon must be a go for next season. Also I love the quick shots of "Oh, let's see Oberyn's facial expression." You can almost see the wheels spinning in his mind each time he learns more about his adversaries. With the earlier mention of his daughters, hope we see Dorne, Doran et al next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Envie Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Is it really that difficult to comprehend? Because he nods towards the throne when Oberyn asks him what he's interested in, does that mean he wants to sit the throne himself? Even my Unsullied friends started arguing about who Varus wants to put on the throne and why. You don't have to take everything at face value and literally, it's ok to think for a few seconds about it. Well said. I know two unsullied who 'got it' easily enough. They even mentioned the fact he was quick to point out to Oberyn that he "was no Lord and did not want the title" so they were pretty clear on the fact Varys himself would never be a king or ruler, he's not a Lord. I'm not sure why so many people who debate on these discussions think everything in the show must be taken literally and that show only viewers must be too stupid to get hints and clues? Varys has made it clear he has no mortal desires and that his motives are purely in putting the 'right' person on that throne. His idea of who is 'right' may not necessarily be the real Aegon or the fake Aegon... in fact that debate rages on but the bottom line is - it doesn't matter if Aegon is fake or real because there have been many pretenders (one is on it now) to the throne as well as conquerors and some were better than the 'trueborn' king who was a mad man (Aerys not Joffrey haha). Varys wants power, that much has been obvious from the start. Every show viewer now fully understands that the "Game of Thrones" doesn't mean the winner is the one who sits on it... they know the winner is the one who successfully controls Westeros through the throne, by whatever means. For Tywin that's as the Hand of the King for his grandsons, for Littlefinger it was his position of power over the throne's finances during Robert's reign (which are obviously in ruin but LF still used it to his advantage), and for Varys it's his position as the royal spy and master of whispers - knowing and bartering secrets and paid favors is very powerful, even Tywin is somewhat cautious about how much Varys knows. The scene with Oberyn was well done. It showed a little bit of Varys' power to both viewers and to Oberyn. Oberyn needs to know this if he's to be the family that next sits the throne (possibly via Aegon or Myrcella or both). Varys is making sure Oberyn understands that his services and power are important tools for Oberyn's side of the game. EDIT: I also think many people lost the subtle play of words (and genders) that was going on between Oberyn and Varys. Oberyn asking Varys bluntly if he liked boys wasn't a sexual reference (though it was literally) - it was him asking who Varys preferred on the throne. He acted surprised when Varys said he didn't choose boys OR girls - but Varys explained it, and the subtle clue... that passion and desire clouded one's judgement and put bad rulers on the throne. Varys, absent those passions, was able to see the potential candidates for what they were, not their potential as mates, lovers, marriage matches for sons/daughters, etc etc which is all part of the game of thrones... of which he does not participate. He judges a ruler by their ability to lead, not whether they are a king, queen, or potential family marriage alliance like so many Lords do. Now that doesn't mean he's without his own devious motivations for WHO should be on the throne... but he's pointing out that being a Eunich exempts him from caring about the ruler's sex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Guys, it's heavy foreshadowing for fAegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAndFullOfTurnips Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I really can't see why almost everyone here thinks that Varys' unspoken reply could be about Aegon. It could easily be about Dany, since to this point (in the show and the books alike) nobody knew the first thing about Aegon, but we all knew that Varys was backing up Dany. It could easily continue to be that way in the show, which means Aegon could still be cut. Why would they cut Aegon, it's not like there's a surplus of material to fill in Seasons 5 and 6. There are no main characters that actually affect the plot being cut. I'm not sure why everyone comes up with these theories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaquentis Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I felt like he was aiming to confuse Oberyn and (managed) to also confuse the Unsullied, including my mother :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Priest Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 With the way the show is diverting from the book's general course, I for one would not be surprised if Varys does actually end up on the throne. :shocked: I do think that he was nodding to the throne in the wider sense of power rather than expressly hinting anything that will happen post ADWD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
direwoofwoof Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Varys has his little hands in everything. His pursuit is to get the "right" king on the throne- not himself but a Targ IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilkSucSouthronKnight Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Sorry if this is a little off topic, but in terms of Oberyn's character, is there a thread that discussed the possibility of HBO going a bit off the rails and having Oberyn win the battle agaisnt the Mountain? I can think of a bunch of reasons why this would make the HBO show a much tighter storyline, but didn't want to go into it if this wasn't the proper thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Envie Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Sorry if this is a little off topic, but in terms of Oberyn's character, is there a thread that discussed the possibility of HBO going a bit off the rails and having Oberyn win the battle agaisnt the Mountain? I can think of a bunch of reasons why this would make the HBO show a much tighter storyline, but didn't want to go into it if this wasn't the proper thread. If Oberyn won the duel (and killed the Mountain), then there would be no 'unGregor' (Ser Strong) in the future storyline for Cersei and King's Landing. I don't know how critical that story arc is for the future of the story. By the time unGregor arrived on the scene I had had quite enough of resurrected zombie characters so I wouldn't be butthurt if they did away with that entirely for the show. But having Oberyn live would change the entire plot for Dorne quite significantly. I don't see how they'd pull that one off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 If Oberyn won the duel (and killed the Mountain), then there would be no 'unGregor' (Ser Strong) in the future storyline for Cersei and King's Landing. I don't know how critical that story arc is for the future of the story. By the time unGregor arrived on the scene I had had quite enough of resurrected zombie characters so I wouldn't be butthurt if they did away with that entirely for the show. But having Oberyn live would change the entire plot for Dorne quite significantly. I don't see how they'd pull that one off. agreed...with Oberyn alive, the sand snakes would make no play...Doran's play for Martell-Targ wedding might not make as much sense...plus never forget one thing... people are starting to like Oberyn...after he volunteers to fight for Tyrion, they will start loving him....in GRRM's world, that means he HAS TO DIE IMMEDIATELY! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 agreed...with Oberyn alive, the sand snakes would make no play...Doran's play for Martell-Targ wedding might not make as much sense...plus never forget one thing... people are starting to like Oberyn...after he volunteers to fight for Tyrion, they will start loving him....in GRRM's world, that means he HAS TO DIE IMMEDIATELY! :P Getting introduced and killed off immediately is the Martells' favorite hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pib_Juju Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 agreed...with Oberyn alive, the sand snakes would make no play...Doran's play for Martell-Targ wedding might not make as much sense...plus never forget one thing... people are starting to like Oberyn...after he volunteers to fight for Tyrion, they will start loving him....in GRRM's world, that means he HAS TO DIE IMMEDIATELY! :P Not to mention, having him win that duel would be way too much like Bronn in the Eyrie. Oberyn's death in that duel is not only an iconic scene in the books, but a great chance to shock the tv audience who might reasonably be expecting Bronn Part 2. It would also leave Tyrion in Westeros. He'd have no reason to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool of a Book Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 i didnt consider this, but the show might actually decide to cut out Aegon to save time so they can wrap up the rest in 3 seasons... which mean...stiil lots of stuff to look forward to in the next decade it will take GRRM to finish ADoS :laugh: No way Aegon will be cut. The show has talked about Elia and the kids plenty of times, and besides, Aegon's identity is tied to Jon Snow's. Aegon is essential to the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 It would also leave Tyrion in Westeros. He'd have no reason to leave. With that speech he didn't win any new friends either though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Why would they cut Aegon, it's not like there's a surplus of material to fill in Seasons 5 and 6. There are no main characters that actually affect the plot being cut. I'm not sure why everyone comes up with these theories. S6 will be TWOW material, so they would only have 1 season to introduce Aegon. IMO he's in, but the show does like to cut characters where they can, and some people (not me) view Aegon as extraneous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uldra I Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 This conversation really brought to the fore my belief that Varys should have told Oberyn about Aegon during this time. If anyone would be a help to Varys it would be the Dornish prince. And yet Varys just allows the guy to go into a pretty pointless fight with the Mountain without knowing anything. Even if he didn't reveal the full details, Oberyn might not have thrown his life away. Varys' omission of anything regarding Aegon during this conversation is the most solid clue yet that Aegon is indeed fake. Oberyn would definitely want to know that Aegon, his nephew, is alive and Oberyn might have made a powerful ally for Varys as well. Why wouldn't Varys tell him? Guessing... Varys realized Oberyn would be able to reveal the lies surrounding FAegon. Varys didn't want to risk it. Another clue is that GRRM waited so late in the story to reveal the mummer's dragon. It was as if he wanted to throw in another red herring. I'm sure Martin has an important role for FAegon to play, just don't think he is Rheagar's hier. Regarding OP, it just seemed really out of place for Varys to imply he sought the IT, as if for himself. Can't figure out why he would do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilkSucSouthronKnight Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 If Oberyn won the duel (and killed the Mountain), then there would be no 'unGregor' (Ser Strong) in the future storyline for Cersei and King's Landing. I don't know how critical that story arc is for the future of the story. By the time unGregor arrived on the scene I had had quite enough of resurrected zombie characters so I wouldn't be butthurt if they did away with that entirely for the show. But having Oberyn live would change the entire plot for Dorne quite significantly. I don't see how they'd pull that one off. Right, but that might be a good thing. I get the sense that the HBO producers aren't afraid to go off the rail in terms of doing things different from the book. And there's some parts of books 4 and 5 that just plain drag. Maybe I'm crazy, but hear me out: The Red Viper was way too cool a character to kill off so quick. I wouldn't be surprised if Martin has some regrets doing that. He wins the battle against the Mountain. The unGregor thing...a little hoaky? Would we really miss it? And remember, his body is still there if they decide to still do it. After the battle, Oberyn Martell sets sail for Dorn on the ship Cercei provided for Myrcella- but this time with Tyrion in tow. Almost like how they discussed before the battle. Not sure where that leaves with Tyrion killing Shae and Tywin; maybe he does that and still steals away on the ship, maybe not. It was a little pecurliar that the one small council meeting they showed with Oberyn, they made partcular mention of Dany, her dragons, and Ser Jorah being a former spy for the crown that turned fully to her cause. At this point in the book, Ser Jorah was already gone from Dany's service, having been outed by Barristen Selmy. But Barristen already said he didn't attend small council meetings, so that's not going to happen. Oberyn and his retinue (along with possibly Tyrion) replace the Quentyn Martell storyline, as he sails for Meereen (thanks again Cercei!) to court Dany. The whole storyline with Tyrion in various states of captivity is rolled into this. Overall I think this would make for a much tighter storyline. Yes it is a somewhat big departure from the books, but I think that was inevitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrollofShame Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Aegon is coming. This scene should put an end to all the Aegon will be cut speculation Agree heartily! I never understood why everyone believed he'd be cut. He's Varys' end game, if ADWD is to be believed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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