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[Book Spoilers] Varys/Oberyn conversation

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They said Lys.

Right you are...always get those three-letter Free Cities mixed up :dunce:

Something else, when Varys talks about Jorah Mormont betraying Dany, the camera turns to Oberyn looking very interested. Could it be the show will stall the Jorah reveal untill next season and have Quentyn deliver that news to Dany, as a means to gain her trust? The timelines wouldn't exactly add up but that never bothered the show. I do think the show will play it that Oberyn reports everything he learned in KL back to Doran, which makes Doran want to broker an alliance with Dany (in stead of the marriage contract plotpoint). Anyone thinking along the same lines? Want to know how realistic I'm being.

I thought there was a shot this season of Dany looking angry with Jorah this season in one of the season previews, but I could be wrong. If they do have Quentyn do it, that would actually be a very smart way to go about it, but they would need to banish Jorah early in the season to give him time to get to Tyrion later on. I don't think it would affect the marriage contract plotpoint; I think that's important to leave the same so that everyone knows where Dorne's true alliances have been this whole time.

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Something else, when Varys talks about Jorah Mormont betraying Dany, the camera turns to Oberyn looking very interested. Could it be the show will stall the Jorah reveal untill next season and have Quentyn deliver that news to Dany, as a means to gain her trust? The timelines wouldn't exactly add up but that never bothered the show. I do think the show will play it that Oberyn reports everything he learned in KL back to Doran, which makes Doran want to broker an alliance with Dany (in stead of the marriage contract plotpoint). Anyone thinking along the same lines? Want to know how realistic I'm being.

Nah, Jorah reveal is happening this season, a couple of seconds of that scene have been shown in featurettes.

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This conversation really brought to the fore my belief that Varys should have told Oberyn about Aegon during this time. If anyone would be a help to Varys it would be the Dornish prince. And yet Varys just allows the guy to go into a pretty pointless fight with the Mountain without knowing anything.



Even if he didn't reveal the full details, Oberyn might not have thrown his life away.


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What's up with Varys nodding towards the throne to indicate what he is "pursuing" (his exact word choice)?

Perhaps he's trying to say that he serves the throne (or "the realm", as he says to Ned), but as shown it really looks for all the world like he is indicating to Oberyn that he desires the throne for himself. He of course appears to have no such designs in the book (I think it's clear he's Team Targ, which perhaps he does genuinely consider to be in the best interests of "the realm")

A precise transcription of the dialog:

Varys: Besides, the absence of desire, leaves one free to pursue other things...

Oberyn: Such as?

Varys: {Deliberately turns head to stare directly at the Iron Throne}

So what's going on here? Am I mis-reading something? How did everyone else interpret it?

Varys causally appearing to openly indicate "I want the throne" to Oberyn is just so.. weird. I don't know what to make of it.

fAegon / the Game of Thrones itself. He likes and wants the Throne and all the games around it.

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All right so no Quentyn outing Jorah, I'm still glad they did a bit of Aegon foreshadowing. Everyone will find him so out of the blue (like in the books) that any prior hints are welcome. But probably Aegon will still feel as contrived as he did in the books. And that "protecting the realm"-portrayal of Varys should be walking on its last legs too, Varys is nothing like that and I can't wait untill the unsullied get to see that.


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I think for people who haven't read the series, it causes some level of question/confusion - which is good IMO.



I think all it means is that his goal is to make sure that the throne gets to the...right person...not that he wants his behind on the throne.


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Varys does not mutilate his little birds, they come to him that way. GRRM has confirmed as much. And cutting out tongues is not a nice thing, but it's necessary for his business operation. He does not do these things himself, or enjoys ordering them.



As to Varys aiming at the Iron Throne: If they are not completely botching his character, then his goal is to seat somebody there who is worthy of it, a good and decent king who gives the Realm a long and lasting peace. It's pretty clear in the books that this what Varys tries to accomplish with the Aegon plan.



He does not want to replace one puppet king - Tommen - with another puppet. That much is already clear. We don't know anything about an ulterior motive as of yet. But it's very likely that it has something to do with his past...


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I liked this conversation because it was between men of two opposites. Oberyn who lives a life full of desire and Varys with a very literal lack of "desire".


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As to Varys aiming at the Iron Throne: If they are not completely botching his character, then his goal is to seat somebody there who is worthy of it, a good and decent king who gives the Realm a long and lasting peace. It's pretty clear in the books that this what Varys tries to accomplish with the Aegon plan.

He does not want to replace one puppet king - Tommen - with another puppet. That much is already clear. We don't know anything about an ulterior motive as of yet. But it's very likely that it has something to do with his past...

Well put, and my thoughts exactly.

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I was a little annoyed by that simply because I can't imagine a master of whispers like Varys tipping his hand to anyone, never mind an outsider like Oberyn. Looking back Varys' motives through the first 3 1/2 seasons have been almost a complete mystery. Then, out of nowhere he basically says he's after the Iron Throne? Very strange.

Actually it makes perfect sense. Who would be Aegon's natural allies when he arrives: his beloved uncle who is still trying to avenge him and Dorne, the kingdom of his mother. Now that Oberyn is on the small council Varys is trying to prepare him for the news about Aegon. Hints here and there are a good way of doing it.

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as soon as varys looked at the iron throne two of my unsullied friends shouted "Varys for king!" i laughed but could not bring myself to destroy their hopes.


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A friend of mine now thinks Varys will in the end reform the seven kingdoms and rule as the first 'Serene Doge' of 'The Most Serene Republic of Westeros' with elections and all that.

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Yep, first thought that came into my mind when I saw Varys nod towards the throne was Aegon.

This makes me nervous, like they'll spoil more things that are still ambiguous in the books.

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I didn't like this scene at all. My unsullied family thought Varys wanted to be king!

Actors were fine, bad writing in my opinion

The only reason i could have for this scene is to make Varys seem more ambitious then previous seasons, so when that certain scene comes (ADWD epilogue) people won't be as surprised.

The way it was portrayed, definitely indicated that Varys wanted it, not him paving the way for a certain Egg

My Unsullied BF thought it meant he wanted Dany on the IT, & that's why he could testify against a Lannister. After all, he showed in the meeting that he knows everything about her (his thought).

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I'm guessing the writers are tired of hearing people complain about how mustache-twirly Littlefinger is, so they wanted to show an actual mustache being twirled...

Bad directing, that "nod" just kills the whole scene. Varys should have just walked forward (and to right of Prince Oberyn) so that Oberyn had to turn to keep looking at Varys, and then have the throne in the background. That way, we (the audience) can see what's meant but it doesn't look like Varys is giving Oberyn any insight.

I one assumes he's referring to putting Aegon on the throne, him cluing Oberyn into this meaning wouldn't be unexpected though: the Aegon plan requires Dorne, and in fact Dorne is in on it to one degree or another. Oberyn is a very important ally for Varys, or at least Varys has reason to believe he will be.

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Varys does not mutilate his little birds, they come to him that way. GRRM has confirmed as much. And cutting out tongues is not a nice thing, but it's necessary for his business operation. He does not do these things himself, or enjoys ordering them.

As to Varys aiming at the Iron Throne: If they are not completely botching his character, then his goal is to seat somebody there who is worthy of it, a good and decent king who gives the Realm a long and lasting peace. It's pretty clear in the books that this what Varys tries to accomplish with the Aegon plan.

He does not want to replace one puppet king - Tommen - with another puppet. That much is already clear. We don't know anything about an ulterior motive as of yet. But it's very likely that it has something to do with his past...

Yeah Varys doesn't do the cutting himself, other people do it for him. It does not change these kids would not be mutulated if it weren't for Varys, he's responsible. I don't think you're explanation excuses it one bit.

You also have a very naive image of Varys in your mind. Aegon is not especially worthy, there is no way Varys knows he would be a good King and trying to seat a King on the throne with no right to it, is treasonous, vile and endangers the realm. I get people in-story and show-watchers falling for the Good Varys, but it surprises me when readers believe it too.

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I took it as a red herring. The show suggested that HE wants the iron throne and is a playing the game for himself....book readers know that he was referring to putting someone else on that throne.

exactly this....as he said to Ned Stark, he plays his role at court...and part of that role is pretending that he desires the throne just like any other man...i agreed with some of the other assessments people made as well, that he might be preparing Oberyn for the regime change once Dany or Aegon get there

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