JesterX Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I kind of think, to the writers, this conversation was nothing more than a continuation of the banter between Varys and LF that was always so interesting. LF is away from KL and so they used Oberyn. The problem is Oberyn and Varys are not natural rivals so the convo doesn't resonate as much. I don't think there was any foreshadowing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon of Valyria Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Skagg -- if Aegon is a Blackfyre, it's absolutely treasonous. But so was inflaming Aerys's paranoia to begin with, and so was a serving the Usurper. I'm unsure why it can't be both, anyway. If we assume Aegon is fake, then Varys is both a plotting conspirator and somebody who wants the best for the realm. Remember that the original Blackfyre partisans thought Daemon was the best candidate for the throne. Now we have a Blackfyre that Varys can raise to be his ideal king, while the Targaryen claimant is kind of terrible. Varys would still be a traitor. But he's a traitor who thinks his intentions are benign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordCouture Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 As to Varys aiming at the Iron Throne: If they are not completely botching his character, then his goal is to seat somebody there who is worthy of it, a good and decent king who gives the Realm a long and lasting peace. It's pretty clear in the books that this what Varys tries to accomplish with the Aegon plan. Then why was he working against Rheagar's plot to take his father's throne ? Rheagar would have a make a great king and Varys worked against the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEvilKing Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Yep, first thought that came into my mind when I saw Varys nod towards the throne was Aegon.This makes me nervous, like they'll spoil more things that are still ambiguous in the books. Varys trying to seat Aegon on the throne is not even remotely ambiguous in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool of a Book Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Does anyone remember how the line went... "We aren't all born Princes." or "Not everyone is born a Prince." ? I thought it was a very telling line, but I can't remember it exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Aegon is supposed to be a good and decent king from Varys perspective, I never said he is or will be there. But he is supposed to be that kind of king, not a pawn. Cutting out tongues is not a nice thing, I never said that. But it seems to be necessary fro Varys POV for his enterprise. He most likely found out that the risk in using children who can talk was too great a long time ago. I never said the guy was my hero or so, he has some dark character traits. That goes without saying. But I'd still argue that those things are - like the murder of Ser Kevan and Pycelle - are done in the service of 'the greater good'. Whether he can justify his actions with this 'greater good' remains to be seen. From what we know now this whole 'Varys is a secret Blackfyre and playing a game of revenge for whatever was done to his family/parents/whoever' is entirely speculation. And even if that was part of his game, it's also the case that at least part of this whole thing is to install a good/better king on the Iron Throne. We don't know yet how the Aegon plan was conceived, but it's entirely imaginable that Varys/Illyrio came up with this whole thing in the wake of Robert's Rebellion when they realized early on that Robert and his 'dynasty' would not be able to hold the Realm together for a longer period of time. What has as of yet been established about Varys' character is that is entirely willing and capable of doing horrible things, but does not do so unless he finds them to be absolutely necessary. And nothing he ever did or does was for personal gain. I'm pretty sure he'd sacrifice his own life for his cause, which should make him a very dangerous opponent for anyone crossing blades with him in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Kidney Pie Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 The Tales of Spider and Egg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyrionsFlagon Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I agree with those who say it's a foreshadowing of Aegon, although the writers could take that in a different direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAndFullOfTurnips Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Is it really that difficult to comprehend? Because he nods towards the throne when Oberyn asks him what he's interested in, does that mean he wants to sit the throne himself? Even my Unsullied friends started arguing about who Varus wants to put on the throne and why. You don't have to take everything at face value and literally, it's ok to think for a few seconds about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Foreshadowing for Aegon as mentioned before. But what's weird is that Oberyn doesn't know that, for him it seemed just like Varys admitted that he wanted to do a power grab. That was just careless for Varys either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Foreshadowing for Aegon as mentioned before. But what's weird is that Oberyn doesn't know that, for him it seemed just like Varys admitted that he wanted to do a power grab. That was just careless for Varys either way. It was a little weird for him, but Varys also probably knows he's going to be heading out of KL soon. I think since S2 he's wanted Tyrion on his side, and he sees how this trial is going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 It was a little weird for him, but Varys also probably knows he's going to be heading out of KL soon. I think since S2 he's wanted Tyrion on his side, and he sees how this trial is going. i doubt even the Master of Whispers could anticipate Tyrion *twang!* tywin... i feel like he knows Oberyn is a rebel at heart, would get closer to him by showing that he's just as ambitious and wants the Lannisters out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted May 12, 2014 Author Share Posted May 12, 2014 Is it really that difficult to comprehend? Because he nods towards the throne when Oberyn asks him what he's interested in, does that mean he wants to sit the throne himself? Even my Unsullied friends started arguing about who Varus wants to put on the throne and why. You don't have to take everything at face value and literally, it's ok to think for a few seconds about it. Even if we don't take it to mean Varys literally wants the throne for himself (and plenty of people are taking it that way), I still find it odd he "shows his hand" to Oberyn in this way. As for Varys' actual motives, I think he genuinely believes putting a Targ (Aegon, and/or perhaps Dany as a backup or supporting plan?) on the throne is the best thing for the realm. This is in contrast to Littlefinger, who is purely out for himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 i doubt even the Master of Whispers could anticipate Tyrion *twang!* tywin... i feel like he knows Oberyn is a rebel at heart, would get closer to him by showing that he's just as ambitious and wants the Lannisters out. No, I meant Varys probably knew he'd be freeing Tyrion (and would have to flee even if Tywin was still alive). But you're right; Varys knew Oberyn wouldn't exactly be offended by admitting he wants power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I think it was a great scene. It showed that Oberyn's intelligence and knowledge of the Free cities have thrown Varys off a bit. Also, by "the nod" Varys is sending signals to Oberyn, signals that he never sent to anyone before. He hints at sharing Oberyn's loyalties. The nod was a bonding moment imho. We are on the same side moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ground_control Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Varys does not mutilate his little birds, they come to him that way. GRRM has confirmed as much. And cutting out tongues is not a nice thing, but it's necessary for his business operation. He does not do these things himself, or enjoys ordering them. Varys abhors the mutilation of children, but if you're going to do it anyway, he'll take them off of your hands, please have them delivered to the Red Keep, kthxbai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I didn't like this scene at all. My unsullied family thought Varys wanted to be king! I think that's exactly what they wanted Unsullied to think :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ground_control Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I one assumes he's referring to putting Aegon on the throne, him cluing Oberyn into this meaning wouldn't be unexpected though: the Aegon plan requires Dorne, and in fact Dorne is in on it to one degree or another. Oberyn is a very important ally for Varys, or at least Varys has reason to believe he will be. *Shrug* I don't object to Oberyn noticing really, I just thought that "the nod" was a bit too unsubtle and poorly done, especially given the number of people around here who complain about Littlefinger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAndFullOfTurnips Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Even if we don't take it to mean Varys literally wants the throne for himself (and plenty of people are taking it that way), I still find it odd he "shows his hand" to Oberyn in this way. As for Varys' actual motives, I think he genuinely believes putting a Targ (Aegon, and/or perhaps Dany as a backup or supporting plan?) on the throne is the best thing for the realm. This is in contrast to Littlefinger, who is purely out for himself. He didn't show anything. What is Oberyn going to do, tell Cersei, a woman he hates, hey watch out for that guy you already don't trust? "Lord Tywin! I want to kill you, but be careful because I fear Varys is plotting!" If anything Varys wants him to know that he is a potentially powerful player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastard of the Dreadfort Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Aegon is coming... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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