[Book & show spoilers] Tywins letter to Meereen

[sati]

But Varys tells Tywin at the Council that Jorah no longer spies for them and appears totally devoted to her now. Its hard to see how Twin could come to the conclusion that he could offer anything more to Jorah as incentive.

IMO he would either have to

- Up the reward significantly rather than being reinstated as Lord of Bear Island

- Threaten to exterminate everyone on Bear Island by telling the Boltons to do it. (be interesting if this is later learned and one of the reasons why the Mormonts join Stannis)

Considering how he rewarded Boltons and Freya I imagine he'll reward someone who deals with a chick with 3 dragons massively too.

[Tyrion1991]

Considering how he rewarded Boltons and Freya I imagine he'll reward someone who deals with a chick with 3 dragons massively too.

But he has to be in a position to offer something that is his to give. Even Tywin doesn't have the power to strip, for example, the Glovers and clansmen of their lands. Theres not lot he could offer him that has not already been offered (Bear Island back).

I am just a bit worried that this is a change which will end up altering the tone of Jorahs exile to show Dany is a worse light. Plus it seems a little forced if he offers what Jorah already turned down and has little to no reason to believe that Jorah would betray Dany at this point. "Entirely devoted to her" does not sound like another Walder Frey...

If anything Daario and the Second Sons would be the most logical place to try to manipulate with money to betray Dany. Especially since this is what they do later on (not Daario but the company itself).

[Tyrion1991]

Cersei dismisses the knights as not being a threat, so you can bet that they are a threat.

Well actually its Barristan who is dismissed and he is the most discussed character in this sequence. But I don't see how Tywin would think that he could manipulate Barristan like he did Walder Frey to kill Dany.

[DaveyJoe]

I think the show has handled Tywin and his machinations very well over the past 4 years. The hand wringing is unnecessary, just wait and see how it plays out.

[Tyrion1991]

I think the show has handled Tywin and his machinations very well over the past 4 years. The hand wringing is unnecessary, just wait and see how it plays out.

Perhaps. But it feels like they are just doing this to replace Barristans reveal of Jorahs betrayal and there needs to be reason for Tywin to believe that his actions will achieve something otherwise it would look forced.

[sati]

But he has to be in a position to offer something that is his to give. Even Tywin doesn't have the power to strip, for example, the Glovers and clansmen of their lands. Theres not lot he could offer him that has not already been offered (Bear Island back).

I am just a bit worried that this is a change which will end up altering the tone of Jorahs exile to show Dany is a worse light. Plus it seems a little forced if he offers what Jorah already turned down and has little to no reason to believe that Jorah would betray Dany at this point. "Entirely devoted to her" does not sound like another Walder Frey...

If anything Daario and the Second Sons would be the most logical place to try to manipulate with money to betray Dany. Especially since this is what they do later on (not Daario but the company itself).

Well, then that would be a first in the show.

I think the whole point is that thanks to the letter Dany finds out he spied. It's not much different than in the books. She'll probably figure out the same things here as well, as with the assassination attempt when she was pregnant that Jorah interrupted. That was the thing that pushed her over the edge in the book.

[jet199]

Tywin writes to Dany

"I would like to offer you Jaime's hand in marriage but it will have to be the left one"

Tywin writes to Jorah

"I would like to offer you a full pardon, your lands back and my daughter Cersei, no wait, the last part is optional"

Tywin writes to the unsullied

"I will give you each a golden cock"

[Tyrion1991]

lol

Just because Tywin knows Jorah likes fair haired women does not mean hes going to promise to offer Cersei up. :D

@ Sati

Yes but exiling Jorah was never the aim of Danys enemies in the books, its actually an ally, Barristan, who wants Jorah out and so theres never the insinuation that exiling him is in the interests of her enemies. Especially if fomenting unrest is Tywins goal.If in the show she is told to exile Jorah by Tywin, whereas in the books she is told to exile Jorah by Barristan; it kind of would reflect badly on her.

I wonder if he also mentions about the Mad King and thats how that conversation with Barristan starts?

[sati]

lol

Just because Tywin knows Jorah likes fair haired women does not mean hes going to promise to offer Cersei up. :D

@ Sati

Yes but exiling Jorah was never the aim of Danys enemies in the books, its actually an ally, Barristan, who wants Jorah out and so theres never the insinuation that exiling him is in the interests of her enemies. Especially if fomenting unrest is Tywins goal.If in the show she is told to exile Jorah by Tywin, whereas in the books she is told to exile Jorah by Barristan; it kind of would reflect badly on her.

I wonder if he also mentions about the Mad King and thats how that conversation with Barristan starts?

I don't think exiling Jorah is Tywin's goal. I think his goal is to make spying on her lucrative for him. If letter falls in Barristan hands we're at book trajectory to his banishment.

[yushkevitch]

I know it's a virtual impossibility but since Jorah is no longer helpful to Tywin, wouldn't it be an absolute huge curveball to readers if Tywin's letter is to Selmy, who in turn betrays Dany?

I know, blasphemy! Barristan is loved by most readers but admit that it would floor you if it happened ... okay, maybe a little less now that I've mentioned it but hey, it's not happening anyway :) But I for one would love to see a few more huge surprises in the form of diverting from the books.

And at least in this case, it *could* make sense plot-wise. Jorah can still be discovered as a spy (outed by Barristan after receiving the letter - whereas he earns trust with Dany and makes his eventual betrayal even more shocking. All the while both viewers and readers are completely unaware of what's to come as Selmy would turn the letter over if he wasn't secretly helping Tywin) so Mormont's story with Tyrion can go on relatively undisturbed. And since nothing hugely important happens with Selmy until ... well, until the end of ADwD ...

[Tyrion1991]

I don't think exiling Jorah is Tywin's goal. I think his goal is to make spying on her lucrative for him. If letter falls in Barristan hands we're at book trajectory to his banishment.

Asking Jorah to stab Dany in the back is hardly a good plan though. Walder Frey had an army to help him betray Dany as well as the Boltons. Theres every chance Jorah would be killed instantly by the Unsullied even if Tywin believed he would accept it. Also, Varys conversation gives the exact opposite indication that Jorah could be bought. The show COULD have said that Jorah was still sending reports or was uncertain as to his loyalties but Varys is pretty unequivocal. So I am not sure how Tywin would arrive at the conclusion that he could buy Jorahs loyalty from the scene we saw last week. Varys is telling him that a Northern Knight who fought against the mad king to avenge the Starks has become super loyal to Daenerys and given up on a chance to return to Bear Island. That does not sound like a man who can be bought like Walder Frey anymore than Tywin could have asked Dacey Mormont to stab Rob Stark. Telling a loyal man you are planning an assasination attempt risks them learning of Tywins intent and taking precautionary measures. So, Tywin sending a letter asking Jorah to kill Dany wouldn't make sense on a number of levels.

I think he'll send the letter to the Second Sons and Daario will reject it. Perhaps this is what they discuss in next episode. It may be that this letter alludes to Jorah having been a spy but no longer.

[Tyrion1991]

I know it's a virtual impossibility but since Jorah is no longer helpful to Tywin, wouldn't it be an absolute huge curveball to readers if Tywin's letter is to Selmy, who in turn betrays Dany?

I know, blasphemy! Barristan is loved by most readers but admit that it would floor you if it happened ... okay, maybe a little less now that I've mentioned it but hey, it's not happening anyway :) But I for one would love to see a few more huge surprises in the form of diverting from the books.

And at least in this case, it *could* make sense plot-wise. Jorah can still be discovered as a spy (outed by Barristan after receiving the letter) so Mormont's story with Tyrion can go on relatively undisturbed. And since nothing hugely important happens with Selmy until ... well, until the end of ADwD ...

Show Barristan is really undermined on the show and not portrayed anywhere near as positively as he is in the books.

- He tells Jorah to get lost in season 3. Which is unreasonable and inverts what happens in the books where Jorah is being unreasonable asking for Arstan to be kicked out.

- He says that the Champion of Meereen is no threat whereas Jorah notes the propaganda value. Again, inversion of what happens in the books.

- He says that they can take Westeros with 10,000 men and "the old houses will rise". Such nievity is perhaps more reflective of the character in the book but in this context he is slightly shown up by Jorah whose advice ends up being taken up by Dany to help her make her decision.

[missingm]

I thought that the letter was an excuse to get Tyrrell out of the room while they discuss something really sensitive. But it could be a letter to Jorah asking if the new spy Barristan has arrived.

[Envie]

Tywin writes to Dany

"I would like to offer you Jaime's hand in marriage but it will have to be the left one"

Tywin writes to Jorah

"I would like to offer you a full pardon, your lands back and my daughter Cersei, no wait, the last part is optional"

Tywin writes to the unsullied

"I will give you each a golden cock"

This cracked me up, especially the part about Cersei being optional - LOL. :bawl:

Maybe Tywin was just wanting to try his hand (har har) at poetry since Oberyn's already shown he's a lover and poet that gets the hot women and men with just his sexiness instead of gold. Maybe he's going to write Dany a Haiku.

[TheVatican]

Tywin thinks at a much larger level. Spying could be what he wants, but he has that already through Varys, at least in his mind.

Possible Book Spoilers, not sure how much I can say.

For Tywin, taking Dany out is preferable, but I believe that he thinks it is a long shot, he may or may not continue down this path. However, just because he seeks assasination or spying, does not mean other avenues are closed to him.

I believe what he will seek to do is begin to support or encourage a civil revolution and or unrest. This serves many purposes:

1) Causes Dany's rise in power to be lessened. She has up until this point, increased in strength. Tywins see's this and knows this. Remember, Tywin knows that some wars are fought by the pen as well. But he understand that some are faught by force, and he states this is the GoT series, while in the Little Counsel Meeting.

2) This civil unrest/revolution will cause friction and perhaps a lessening of Dany's protection and hence put her in greater danger, hence giving an opportunity for an assasination attempt.

The manner in which I believe that Tywin will do this is, simple. The Sons of the Harpy. I believe this is how such an organized retaliation against Dany is going to be formed in this GoT universe.

[King Tyrion I]

"Jo,

This is your dawg Tywin checkin in from King's Landing.

Hope you've been havin a good time in Meereen. I heard they got lizards up there as big as your arm, with wings too. Wouldn't want to run into any of those LOL.

Anyway, just wanted to see if you were still comin to my Nameday celebration next week. Gregor dug up those goblets we made out of the skull of Elia and Rhaenys Targaryen and my kid Jaime promised to make sum wicked awesome jello shots out of Arbor Gold and strongwine.

Hopefully you still have time to come down here. Tell Barry he can come too. You guys are the best spies we ever had and you deserve mad props.

Catch ya later, best buddy

Ty,"

Postmarked and delivered to the Great Pyramid of Meereen.

:lmao:

This just makes my day right now. Thank you. :thumbsup:

[Tyrion1991]

I don't see how Tywin could foment unrest among the Ghiscari nobles. He would need to give them gold and men. He has neither to give. Plus the show has went to great lengths to show Dany as the "evil queen" so you don't need tywin to cause the dissension.

One possibility is that he gets some men to set fire to the fleet she is not supposed to have. This would keep Danys army trapped in Meereen. However the fleet was never mentioned at the council meeting so Tywin acting on it appears unlikely.

[The Fourth Head]

I think the truth is probably damaging enough: A letter thanking Jorah for informing that Dany was carrying a child would be a slam-dunk. Perhaps throwing him that he has a full pardon, and inviting him to return to take up his lordship- perhaps detailing a ship arranged to pick him up and asking him to take the Second Sons with him- paying them with empty Lannister promises. If that letter got into the dutiiful and trusted Selmy's hands, the outcome is inevitable and you have a simple means of getting the show and books back in realignment.

Dany without Jorah is a weaker proposition. She would not have any unsullied had it been for Selmy, and she would have sailed to Westeros expecting the country to rally to her side had she listened to Selmy. I think Tywin recognises that a young girl and a noble fool is a much weaker and more predictable prospect without Jorah's street-smarts thrown into the mix.

I love the idea that Varys could be the one behind Jorah's downfall, having used him, then betrayed him, before replacing Jorah with Tyrion- thus betraying Tywin, only for the pair of them to meet in neither capacity. It's shaping up nicely and would be a good dodge around the absurd Arstan Whitebeard identity which was tediously transparent in the books, and would have been even more tediously transparent in the show. It would have been dragged out for at least 14 months. At least this way, it's Tywin's final damaging act, and echoes the RW in the sense that Tywin only has to put pen to paper to wield damaging power from afar. I can't wait for Ian Glens' performance!

[Tyrannosaurus]

I think the letter is going to someone with the intent of assassinating Dany. He does not want her around. He knows Robert was intent on having she and her brother killed but Ned stopped him. We will have to see but I think he is writing to one of the sellsword companies to kill Dany.

Remember his letters led to the Red Wedding....he his probably contacting someone to kill Dany.

If most of non-book readers are thinking that way, then everybody will be freaking out when Dany marries Hizdahr. :D

I think it's somehow connected with Jorah spying reveal.

[RoamingRonin]

Is it possible that the letter never arrives considering what's happening in King's Landing?