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[Book Spoilers?(I am not sure)] Shae's betrayal of Tyrion


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Was she Tywin's spy from the start? He knew Tyrion would take her to King's Landing.

That's an interesting idea. Tywin might have wanted someone to closely watch what Tyrion was doing as the King's Hand.

What if Shae unintentionelly fell in love with Tyrion at some point in between?

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That's an interesting idea. Tywin might have wanted someone to closely watch what Tyrion was doing as the King's Hand.

What if Shae unintentionelly fell in love with Tyrion at some point in between?

My theory is that she started sleeping with him after events of the trial. Cersei schooled her in testimony and then Shae, figuring Tyrion will probably die, found a new....sponsor :P

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....

The addition of the necklace actually does implicate Sansa. Not sure why they did this. Pycell was not supposed to have the poison most suspected of being used. In seeing that Tyrion should believe that Sansa is guilty and framed him

When LF took Sansa onboard ship, he said no one would suspect him, and asked her who she thought they would suspect. "You." he told her, because of his poison necklace she wore. I had wondered long and hard about why Sansa had the poison planted on her instead of just giving it to Olenna in the first place. After that scene on the ship, I came to the conclusion that LF framed her so that he'd have leverage over Sansa, so she'd have no choice but to go with him.

ETA: regarding OP: It seems she was reciting lines until the last when she looked at Tyrion with IMO definite malice and spite. I literally hated her so much after that scene for her betrayal. Someone in another thread had pointed out that Pod also was told he will be forced to testify. He left KL to avoid it. Shae was supposedly already out at sea before the purple wedding, but they found her anyway. Did she stay because she refused to leave, or was she captured? I wonder...

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This is mostly a copy of what I wrote elsewhere:

"After today's episode I think Shae has genuine feelings for Tyrion.

This is based mostly on her actresses acting: When Tyrion adresses her for the first time during the trial you can hear her voice falter before she continues her speech. Also, just after Tyrion demands a trial by combat you see how she looks very surprised and franctic (eyes flitting back and forth). Clearly, this is something she did not expect nor wished for.

My hypothesis is that Shae was not coerced into saying what she said in the sense that her life was threatened (or at least this is not the only reason). I rather think she was offered a deal by Tywin in much the same way Jamie was = "you tell on him, make him (and Sansa) look bad / guilty, and I make sure he survives and send him to the Wall".

Her agreeing on this would also be more fitting of the personality we have seen in Shae so far.

In other words: Shae is trying to protect Tyrion by doing what Tywin asked of her so that Tyrion will be send to the Wall rather than executed.

The reason for Shae blaming Sansa, too, might have been another part of the deal. So Shae might just want to make really sure that she's fulfilling her part of the deal.

I think that Tywin did not expect Tyrion to be that deeply in love with Shae. He wanted Tyrion to be pushed, but not that far.

From Tyrion's point of view it somewhat makes sense that Shae betrays him - with him sending her away and all. I think GRRM included that part at that point in time to make it believable for both Tyrion and the readers that Shae did just that.

One more thing: maybe Shae's sleeping with Tywin was another attempt of hers to have him free Tyrion (or something of the sort).

Also, I think that the show is not really deviating from Shae's motives in the books here. The difference is, that - in the show - we are not biased by Tyrion's POV."

I really like this idea and makes tyrion even darker.
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I think it must be changed. Not the Tyrion killing Shae part but the Tyrion saying "Where do whores go?" part. It was never mentioned in the show and I can't imagine Tyrion using that line, would be completely out of context. He might remind him about Tysha in some way though.


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Just like in the books, Shae is coerced into the testimony, but can'thelp but take some personal jabs at Tyrion.



When I read the books, I felt that Shae really loved Tyrion in the way a Whore can hope to love a Lord. Same of the show. People try to make Shae a cardbook character, but she really does love, hate, respect, and is very angy at Tyrion all at the same time. Plus having the Queen coerce her on top of her own emotions.


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To this day I am not the least bit convinced that book Shae ever loved Tyrion. I'm sure she was also coerced, but I viewed it as being convenient coercion.



I remember reading Sibel's interview saying that she felt uncomfortable when Shae implicated Sansa, because Shae would never do that because she loved Sansa. All I can think in regards to the necklace is that a.) this line will be more important down the road when Sansa is reintroduced as a player in the game. Regicide is not something people easily forgive, or forget. b.) the show is really trying to drive home the fact that Sansa has to remain hidden right now. She can't reveal herself because if she does, she is a fugitive and people will feel inclined to turn her into King's Landing. This is always kind of implied in the books, but I never felt it was made explicit. Littlefinger reveals his plan to have her claim the Eyrie and appeal to the Northern Lords with her reveal, but he makes no suggestion that her supposed regicide will still be an issue.



Also, I'm pretty sure Shae is a dead duck. And everyone I've talked to that have not read the books hate her. They don't care if she's being coerced.


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To this day I am not the least bit convinced that book Shae ever loved Tyrion. I'm sure she was also coerced, but I viewed it as being convenient coercion.

I remember reading Sibel's interview saying that she felt uncomfortable when Shae implicated Sansa, because Shae would never do that because she loved Sansa. All I can think in regards to the necklace is that a.) this line will be more important down the road when Sansa is reintroduced as a player in the game. Regicide is not something people easily forgive, or forget. b.) the show is really trying to drive home the fact that Sansa has to remain hidden right now. She can't reveal herself because if she does, she is a fugitive and people will feel inclined to turn her into King's Landing. This is always kind of implied in the books, but I never felt it was made explicit. Littlefinger reveals his plan to have her claim the Eyrie and appeal to the Northern Lords with her reveal, but he makes no suggestion that her supposed regicide will still be an issue.

Also, I'm pretty sure Shae is a dead duck. And everyone I've talked to that have not read the books hate her. They don't care if she's being coerced.

TV shows have to be more explicit than thousand page novels. Of course, if Tyrion is accused than Sansa is at the very least implicated. The show entered the necklace as physical evidence. In the book, the hairnet never shows up in Tyrion's trail.

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My theory is that she started sleeping with him after events of the trial. Cersei schooled her in testimony and then Shae, figuring Tyrion will probably die, found a new....sponsor :P

in the second episode of the season when they are at breakfast cersei points out to tywin that shae is tyrion's whore and he tells her to send her up to his chambers so it may have started at that point.

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I think it must be changed. Not the Tyrion killing Shae part but the Tyrion saying "Where do whores go?" part. It was never mentioned in the show and I can't imagine Tyrion using that line, would be completely out of context. He might remind him about Tysha in some way though.

Well, we're not at the point where it occurred in the books either. "Where do whores go" only came up after Tyrion's last conversation with Tywin, which we have yet to see. And I'm sure Jaime's last convo with Tyrion will go down almost exactly as it did in the books, meaning that we will be reminded of Tysha just in time to set up "where do whores go".

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I really like this idea and makes tyrion even darker.

This would not make Tyrion darker but more tragic, to make him darker he would have to intentionally ignore Shae's motivation but you assume a tragic misunderstanding.

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since tyrion is such a fan favorite, I doubt they'll show him killing Shae. and I agree with the actress about the Sansa thing. Had they left that bit out, it would've been better.

They have not shied away from a major plot point yet. Shae gets a bolt.

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This would not make Tyrion darker but more tragic, to make him darker he would have to intentionally ignore Shae's motivation but you assume a tragic misunderstanding.

I don't mean actually darker, but darker to the audience if they sympathise more with shae.
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I don't mean actually darker, but darker to the audience if they sympathise more with shae.

Yes, the audience would get that painful feeling of proxy shame we all have if someone beloved does something stupid, ridiculous or evil, the Othello-feeling......If they had only talked when there was time........

Not that carmic feeling some may have if they choose to see things black and white: She had it coming.

All would be more conflicted, Shae's death would be more tragic, if Tyrion ever realizes what moved her at least partially it will be more devastating for him, no room for that cheap carmic relief because an antagonist dies by the hand of a protagonist, the emotion flat entertainment tries to sell us as Happy Ending.

Tyrion would be an example of a tragic hero in Greek tragedy, made guilty by desinformation.

But even as it is now, without further description of Shae's motives, that flat "she had it coming" is out of the question if watchers refrain from being judgemental before thinking. Shae is far more complicated than in the books. And the scene in Tywin's bedchamber will come, I am sure, and will offer more room for interpretation (and heavy forum fighting ;) ).

Btw, I have to get rid of a rant, not against the show but against the concept of Shae in the books, and that from me who is one of those simple minded hopeless book and show apologists who uncritically admire artistic achievements :devil:

In the books Shae has from the beginning been shaped as cardboard stereotype of a whore. Already her name is only one letter away from "She" as some kind of female moral archetype. Shae was never supposed to have an identity, a story of her own, she has always been there to illuminate Tyrion's deep personal issues and delusions with his desire to be loved and respected. So she was morally one dimensional in the books. As reaction posters try to invent all evils from Tyrion's side against her like "he stole from her" and "he mistreated her" in order to give her at least some motivation, some story, some identity. This is imo more a sign of justified frustration with Martin's writing than a correct interpretation of what is in the books. There is nothing in the books. Nothing about Shae to give her any depth and this is exactly what makes me angry. I also have tried to write quasi-fanfic in these forums to explain and understand Shae's despicable behaviour at the trial......abused child who never learned empathy.....lower class girl who had to look after herself.... Yaddayadda....because I did not want to see the sex worker and woman demeaned.

But this was the result of a sad omission from Martin's side. Fleshing out Shae may have appeared an unnecessary filler since all was about Tyrion but it would not have been. Tyrion's characterization suffers from leaving Shae so very pale, a side effect the author underestimated imo. I write this as huge fan of book Tyrion as well as show Tyrion.

And the show tried to correct that with good reason, though maybe they have overdone it. Making her so dedicated in protecting Sansa gave them plot trouble by now. And Sansa had to be seriously implicated by Shae or by whomever, a hunted criminal totally dependent of Baelish, seen as capable of murdering again, a victim of negative propaganda.

Yes, the Butterfly Effect... But in that case it was the author and not the show who started it, sorry Mr. Martin.

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Has this been mentioned before? Putting this in spoilers since everyone may not have seen it.




There's a very brief scene in the promo where Shae is lying on a bed and appears to sit up, looking very surprised. Last season GRRM's episode was titled The Bear and the Maiden Fair, but it was originally "Autumn Storms" and then retitled "Chains" before it's final title. In that episode Tyrion gives her a gold necklace that Shae insists is a chain. It think considering these things it's pretty obvious Tyrion will definitely kill her. I mean, we can't know for sure but I'm 99.99999%




Plus, this "whitewashed" Saint Halfman of Lannister that is impersonating the real Tyrion will have an arguably "greyer" moment since he's not shown himself to be a killer before but will kill her very angrily.


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in the second episode of the season when they are at breakfast cersei points out to tywin that shae is tyrion's whore and he tells her to send her up to his chambers so it may have started at that point.

Yeah but perhaps it just points out to him becoming aware of her in that moment, not starting...doing her :) But you may be right, anyways I'm very curious to see if they answer when and how their relations began.

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Has this been mentioned before? Putting this in spoilers since everyone may not have seen it.

There's a very brief scene in the promo where Shae is lying on a bed and appears to sit up, looking very surprised. Last season GRRM's episode was titled The Bear and the Maiden Fair, but it was originally "Autumn Storms" and then retitled "Chains" before it's final title. In that episode Tyrion gives her a gold necklace that Shae insists is a chain. It think considering these things it's pretty obvious Tyrion will definitely kill her. I mean, we can't know for sure but I'm 99.99999%

Plus, this "whitewashed" Saint Halfman of Lannister that is impersonating the real Tyrion will have an arguably "greyer" moment since he's not shown himself to be a killer before but will kill her very angrily.

I completely agree it's happening. As for chains I'm sure it's the chains that will be the cause (why show them otherwise, unless it was just a playful nod on George's part) - the only problem is that we didn't Shae accept them in that scene from 3x07.

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