[Book Spoilers?(I am not sure)] Shae's betrayal of Tyrion

[sati]

Also from B. Cogman WiC podcast: Cersei prepped the witnesses, not Tywin.

[Indigocell]

This is mostly a copy of what I wrote elsewhere:

"After today's episode I think Shae has genuine feelings for Tyrion.

This is based mostly on her actresses acting: When Tyrion adresses her for the first time during the trial you can hear her voice falter before she continues her speech. Also, just after Tyrion demands a trial by combat you see how she looks very surprised and franctic (eyes flitting back and forth). Clearly, this is something she did not expect nor wished for.

My hypothesis is that Shae was not coerced into saying what she said in the sense that her life was threatened (or at least this is not the only reason). I rather think she was offered a deal by Tywin in much the same way Jamie was = "you tell on him, make him (and Sansa) look bad / guilty, and I make sure he survives and send him to the Wall".

Her agreeing on this would also be more fitting of the personality we have seen in Shae so far.

In other words: Shae is trying to protect Tyrion by doing what Tywin asked of her so that Tyrion will be send to the Wall rather than executed.

The reason for Shae blaming Sansa, too, might have been another part of the deal. So Shae might just want to make really sure that she's fulfilling her part of the deal.

I think that Tywin did not expect Tyrion to be that deeply in love with Shae. He wanted Tyrion to be pushed, but not that far.

From Tyrion's point of view it somewhat makes sense that Shae betrays him - with him sending her away and all. I think GRRM included that part at that point in time to make it believable for both Tyrion and the readers that Shae did just that.

One more thing: maybe Shae's sleeping with Tywin was another attempt of hers to have him free Tyrion (or something of the sort).

Also, I think that the show is not really deviating from Shae's motives in the books here. The difference is, that - in the show - we are not biased by Tyrion's POV."

I just recently watched a review of the episode and noticed the look on Shae's face after Tyrion demands trial by combat. I began to suspect the same thing because what reason would she have to be worried?

Although, it could be that her life or freedom was contingent on a guilty verdict and a trial by combat could potentially mess that up.

In any case, I'm not as certain of her intentions as I was before.

[kacunnin]

I know I'm new here -- I read all five books in the six weeks leading up to the start of Season 4, so my perspective is a bit different from the many long-time fans. I got to know Tyrion and Shae from the HBO series before I saw how they were presented in the books. And when I got to the scene in the book where Tyrion kills Shae I was shocked. And I just can't see how show-Tyrion can kill show-Shae without his character being irreparably damaged.

Here's the problem -- not only is show-Shae a much more sympathetic character (she clearly loves Tyrion, and she has several times done things to suggest she is NOT involved with him for the money), but she has a much bigger part in the story than she does in the books. We never get her POV in the books, which means we never get to see her interact with characters other than Tyrion. In the show, we see Shae offer to run away with Tyrion after he's wounded, we see her refuse Varys's diamonds, we hear her say she'd give her life for Sansa, and we see her break down in tears after Tyrion cruely dumps her.

In the book, Tyrion kills Shae because he believes she has betrayed him for gold (she's wearing his father's Hand neckace), and he thinks she's made a fool of him. He has learned that Tysha wasn't a "lying whore" after all, but he believes Shae was. In the show, Tyrion betrays Shae BEFORE she betrays him -- he dumps her, telling her point blank that she's a whore and that he wants a life with his wife. This is a common soap opera trope -- the good guy is dumping his girlfriend to "protect her" from the bad guys, and she's too stupid to get it. The things Tyrion said to Shae in the show were very hurtful, and she was clearly devastated. You can argue that she should have understood what he was doing, but the whole thing was played like a bad episode of "Days of Our Lives."

If show-Tyrion kills Shae, he will be doing a very terrible thing. First, he was the one who set her betrayal in motion, and he knows that. Second, it's pretty obvious that Shae was coerced into speaking against Tyrion and Sansa (her words against Sansa, especially, should have made that clear to Tyrion). Third, she's a whore (as Tyrion keeps reminding himself), and as such she belongs to the one who pays her -- just as Bronn does. You don't kill a whore you've dumped because she gets herself a new employer.

In the book, Shae seduces Tyrion (among the dragon bones) BEFORE she betrays him. This doesn't happen in the show, which goes a long way to keep Shae a sympathetic character.

I don't believe show-Tyrion will kill show-Shae. But I do believe Shae will be killed -- probably by Tywin (who promised to kill Tyrion's whore if he ever brought her to court). But we'll see. Tyrion is such a popular character for the HBO audience, and his killing Shae could undermine that popularity.

I'm also not convinced that Jaime will tell Tyrion the truth about Tysha, since she's nowhere near the powerful force in show-Tyrion's life that she is in the books. Yes, the story of what happened with his first wife is told in Season One, and there have been a few veiled references to Tysha (not by name, though) since then, but in the book Tyrion thinks about Tysha all the time and what happened (or what he believes happened) fuels his feelings about Shae (he warns himself over and over again not to ever trust in her love). That's not the case in the show -- Tyrion KNOWS Shae loves him, which is why he has to hurt her to get her to leave him. You don't do that to someone and then kill them!

Thanks for listening, guys.

[FNF]

They already had that scene where Tyrion shows Shae the necklace of golden hands. I doubt very much that Tyrion won't kill Shae...

[igrewupinKL]

Thanks for listening, guys.

Loved you're whole post. But as you argued, despite show-tyrion killing show-shae not making sense, i still think it's going to happen. I think it just undermines Tyrions character a little. In the book, Tyrion had very good reason to get angry at the trial. But in the show, I thought it was really clear, at least in part, that Shae was forced to testify against Tyrion. And it undermines Tyrions character not to have noticed this.

When Shae says "I'm a whore remember?". It pushes Tyrion over the edge as he knows it's her saying that not someone else. I think its a little weak, but that little thing is why tyrion will kill shae.

[Gran de Lys]

They have not shied away from a major plot point yet. Shae gets a bolt.

From your typing fingers to D&D's ears ... Fingers crossed.

[Yojimbo]

Ok lets get this necklace we saw out of the way, now I imagine we are all book readers here so when we saw the necklace (one I might add Shae refuses/turns down), how is that any insight that show Tyrion is going to kill Shae? But a better question would be is how is this any insight for our unsullied friends? After all they don't know Tyrion kills Shae in the books with the King's Hand Chain and the King's Hand Chain only becomes important point for us book readers because of the song "Hands of gold are always cold". Do you really think our unsullied friends are going to be like "OMG THERE THAT NECKLACE WE SAW FOR A FEW SECONDS IN SEASON 3! THAT SONG WE NEVER HEARED BECAUSE IT GOT CUT FROM THE SHOW ALL MAKES SENSE NOW! D&D ARE GENIUS! THEY PRETTY MUCH GIVE US FORESIGHT INTO SHAE DEATH!"? Nope, I think not. I see that necklace as just a red herring for us book readers.

Secondly, Tysha; now again remember we only know so much about Tysha as readers because she plays a far bigger part in book Tyrions thoughts, but our unsullied friends only actually know her name from one episode in season 1, and a few offhand refereances refering to her (can't remember myself if they actually say her name after season 1) show Tyrion has never actually spoke about her in any more detail since. Now I asked my brother (unsullied) the other day do you remember what happened to Tyrions first wife? He said what happened to her. I then said you don't remember her name by any chance I have seemed to forgot it? He was pretty convinced they never actually said her name.........now my brother is by no means a stupid guy, I love my brother to bits and whats more I forgive him because how in the hell is any unsullied suppose to remember a name given to them in season 1? Who has played no huge part in Tyrions charecter since and next season all he going to go on about is Tysha?

Nope, they merged Shaes and Tysha characters together, hence why TV Shae loves Tyrion, Shae is going to get shipped off to Essos, giving Tyrions charecter something todo for filler because if you think the show is going to have Tyrion all next season getting on and off boats being drunk, pissed off, depressed and hopeless then you got another thing coming. They have already changed Tyrions charecter in the show already, why do people not think they won't do this again, I ask?

*Edit*

As a side note do you guys think we are going to get Penny and Pig next season? You know the characters we never saw at the Purple Wedding? (well less Penny was one of them male dwarf's and will get a sex change before next season) And only knows it Tyrion because a noseless dwarf is not a common sight to see, owait Tyrion still got his nose.....

[Banner Without Brothers]

If show-Tyrion kills Shae, he will be doing a very terrible thing. First, he was the one who set her betrayal in motion, and he knows that. Second, it's pretty obvious that Shae was coerced into speaking against Tyrion and Sansa (her words against Sansa, especially, should have made that clear to Tyrion). Third, she's a whore (as Tyrion keeps reminding himself), and as such she belongs to the one who pays her -- just as Bronn does. You don't kill a whore you've dumped because she gets herself a new employer.

A very well written post. But I feel there is one bit where your argument is weak. It's not obvious that she has been completely coerced or that she is not testifying for her own purposes as well as being either bribed or threatened. She purposefully reveals the most intimate moments of their relationship. If she was testifying against her will she could have easily just made stuff up. But she doesn't, she tells the truth or at least a truth. The only reason for revealing these things is to hurt Tyrion as much as possible. It's not like Cersei can tell her what to say, she couldn't know the exact details of their conversations.

With that in mind even if she is being bribed or threatened. Which lets face it is likely, it's the Lannisters after all. It doesn't change the fact that she is hurting Tyrion because she wants to.

[sati]

Ok lets get this necklace we saw out of the way, now I imagine we are all book readers here so when we saw the necklace (one I might add Shae refuses/turns down), how is that any insight that show Tyrion is going to kill Shae? But a better question would be is how is this any insight for our unsullied friends? After all they don't know Tyrion kills Shae in the books with the King's Hand Chain and the King's Hand Chain only becomes important point for us book readers because of the song "Hands of gold are always cold". Do you really think our unsullied friends are going to be like "OMG THERE THAT NECKLACE WE SAW FOR A FEW SECONDS IN SEASON 3! THAT SONG WE NEVER HEARED BECAUSE IT GOT CUT FROM THE SHOW ALL MAKES SENSE NOW! D&D ARE GENIUS! THEY PRETTY MUCH GIVE US FORESIGHT INTO SHAE DEATH!"? Nope, I think not. I see that necklace as just a red herring for us book readers.

Secondly Tysha, now again remember we only know so much about Tysha as readers because she plays a far bigger part in book Tyrions thoughts, but our unsullied friends only actually know her name from one episode in season 1, and a few offhand refereances refering to her (can't remember myself if they actually say her name after season 1) show Tyrion has never actually spoke about her in any more detail since. Now I asked my brother (unsullied) the other day do you remember what happened to Tyrions first wife? He said what happened to her. I then said you don't remember her name by any chance I have seemed to forgot it? He was pretty convinced they never actually said her name.........now my brother is by no means a stupid guy, I love my brother to bits and whats more I forgive him because how in the hell is any unsullied suppose to remember a name given to them in season 1? Who has played no huge part in Tyrions charecter since and next season all he going to go on about is Tysha?

Nope, they merged Shaes and Tysha characters together, hence why TV Shae loves Tyrion, Shae is going to get shipped off to Essos, giving Tyrions charecter something todo for filler because if you think the show is going to have Tyrion all next season getting on and off boats being drunk, pissed off, depressed and hopeless then you got another thing coming. They have already changed Tyrions charecter in the show already, why do people not think they won't do this again, I ask?

If you really think that Tyrion who almost exploded just after seeing Shae testify (which he deep down might have realized she was forced to do) and called her a lying whore is not gonna kill her after he finds out she was sleeping with his own father....you may be in for the biggest shock out of all of us during finale.

[Yojimbo]

If you really think that Tyrion who almost exploded just after seeing Shae testify (which he deep down might have realized she was forced to do) and called her a lying whore is not gonna kill her after he finds out she was sleeping with his own father....you may be in for the biggest shock out of all of us during finale.

Well, yes Tyrion did explode, at ever one......hell Cersei got the worst of it. Hell he only implied Shae was a lying whore never directly at her, in fact he included Cersei in that aswell. "Give me more relief than a thousand lying whores!" all the while speaking to Cersei, all Shae gets from it is a quick glance from Tyrion. And as you said, Tyrion probly has worked out in his heart of hearts Shae had no choice in it. Sleeping with Tywin as far as am concerned is pure speculation and there plenty of evidence in the show already of them cutting out details. Or did you not think in the books when Tyrion orders Bronn to make Symon Silver Tounge 'disappear' and Bronn suggests there a pot shop in Flea Bottom with a "savory bowl of brown" with "all kinds of meat in it" not important to Tyrions character? Because I did, the show didn't though.

On the shocked part, I really wouldn't be shocked if he does kill Shae, just shows what a pack of hacks D&D are if they do.

[sati]

Well, yes Tyrion did explode, at ever one......hell Cersei got the worst of it. Hell he only implied Shae was a lying whore never directly at her, in fact he included Cersei in that aswell. "Give me more relief than a thousand lying whores!" all the while speaking to Cersei, all Shae gets from it is a quick glance from Tyrion. And as you said, Tyrion probly has worked out in his heart of hearts Shae had no choice in it. Sleeping with Tywin as far as am concerned is pure speculation and there plenty of evidence in the show already of them cutting out details. Or did you not think in the books when Tyrion orders Bronn to make Symon Silver Tounge 'disappear' and Bronn suggests there a pot shop in Flea Bottom with a "savory bowl of brown" with "all kinds of meat in it" not important to Tyrions character? Because I did, the show didn't though.

On the shocked part, I really wouldn't be shocked if he does kill Shae, just shows what a pack of hacks D&D are if they do.

So...they are hacks if they honor book material?

There is only one thing you need to see to know what happens and it's this - http://turntherightcorner.com/?attachment_id=22771

[Uldra I]

A very well written post. But I feel there is one bit where your argument is weak. It's not obvious that she has been completely coerced or that she is not testifying for her own purposes as well as being either bribed or threatened. She purposefully reveals the most intimate moments of their relationship. If she was testifying against her will she could have easily just made stuff up. But she doesn't, she tells the truth or at least a truth. The only reason for revealing these things is to hurt Tyrion as much as possible. It's not like Cersei can tell her what to say, she couldn't know the exact details of their conversations.

With that in mind even if she is being bribed or threatened. Which lets face it is likely, it's the Lannisters after all. It doesn't change the fact that she is hurting Tyrion because she wants to.

not even close. Shae lied through her teeth!

...

Nope, they merged Shaes and Tysha characters together, hence why TV Shae loves Tyrion, Shae is going to get shipped off to Essos, giving Tyrions charecter something todo for filler because if you think the show is going to have Tyrion all next season getting on and off boats being drunk, pissed off, depressed and hopeless then you got another thing coming. They have already changed Tyrions charecter in the show already, why do people not think they won't do this again, I ask?

*Edit*

As a side note do you guys think we are going to get Penny and Pig next season? You know the characters we never saw at the Purple Wedding? (well less Penny was one of them male dwarf's and will get a sex change before next season) And only knows it Tyrion because a noseless dwarf is not a common sight to see, owait Tyrion still got his nose.....

Actually, now that you brought it up, it makes sense for the show to combine the Tysha and Shae characters. It conserves a lot of show resources and, IMO, doesn't make Shae's betrayal of Tyrion's love any less poignant. Besides the people who think Tyrion's motive for going to Essos is to search for Tysha are mistaken. Tyrion goes to Essos because he has to run or stay and die.

Yeah, would hate to have to watch Dinklage for the rest of the series without a nose though... :P Truly a disturbing image. hee hee

[kacunnin]

To Banner Without Brothers: Sorry, I don't know how to include quotes in my post (I'll figure it out, I'm sure!).

You wrote, "It's not obvious that she has been completely coerced or that she is not testifying for her own purposes as well as being either bribed or threatened. She purposefully reveals the most intimate moments of their relationship. If she was testifying against her will she could have easily just made stuff up. But she doesn't, she tells the truth or at least a truth. The only reason for revealing these things is to hurt Tyrion as much as possible."

I disagree. There are only three reasons Shae could be testifiying against Tyrion (and Sansa), since she knows full well that neither are guilty. 1) She has been coerced (the most logical reason), 2) she has been bribed (more later), and 3) she's pissed and wants to hurt him as much as he hurt her.

Reason #2 (that she has been bribed) makes little sense, since Tyrion knows full well that Shae has refused bribes before. She threw Varys's diamonds in his face, and she refused Tyrion's offer of jewelry and a nice house of her own. She also offered to run away with Tyrion after he was wounded -- to get away from all of the Lannisters (and their money/power). None of those things happened in the book. This is a different Shae.

So if we rule out Reason #2, the only ones left are coersion and vengeance. Whichever is the truth, Tyrion has no justification for killing Shae. If she's been coerced, then killing her would be downright horrible -- what was she supposed to do, die for him after he dumped her? And if she wants vengeance, he has to know he brought that on himself. He chose to use that stupid "I don't love you, you're a whore" gambit, and if she's angry and hurt enough to turn on him, so be it. Either way, there is no justification for him killing her.

The HBO team may decide to go along with the book version of events, but it will undermine show-Tyrion's character. There's no way I could justify his killing Shae given they way things have unfolded on the show.

[sati]

So if we rule out Reason #2, the only ones left are coersion and vengeance. Whichever is the truth, Tyrion has no justification for killing Shae. If she's been coerced, then killing her would be downright horrible -- what was she supposed to do, die for him after he dumped her? And if she wants vengeance, he has to know he brought that on himself. He chose to use that stupid "I don't love you, you're a whore" gambit, and if she's angry and hurt enough to turn on him, so be it. Either way, there is no justification for him killing her.

The HBO team may decide to go along with the book version of events, but it will undermine show-Tyrion's character. There's no way I could justify his killing Shae given they way things have unfolded on the show.

She's banging his father! Testimony is one thing, THIS? This is another. Not only will she die, people will cheer when Tyrion does it.

[Yojimbo]

So...they are hacks if they honor book material?

There is only one thing you need to see to know what happens and it's this - http://turntherightcorner.com/?attachment_id=22771

No, they are hacks when they write Shae and Tyrion as mutual lovers and still have Tyrion kill Shae. Otherwise it brings into question things like, if Shae was just a gold digging whore all this time, why in the 7 hells did she refuse Varys bag of diamonds? Still it changes the dynamic of Tyrions charecter aswell from the books, he kills Shae in the books for being a whore....you know the thing he actually imployed her for......was it Shae's fault Tyrion feel in love with her?

As for the picture, then guess we are going to see Tyrion make a bull charge for Shae's neck if that what we got to go by with her death lol

Actually, now that you brought it up, it makes sense for the show to combine the Tysha and Shae characters. It conserves a lot of show resources and, IMO, doesn't make Shae's betrayal of Tyrion's love any less poignant. Besides the people who think Tyrion's motive for going to Essos is to search for Tysha are mistaken. Tyrion goes to Essos because he has to run or stay and die.

Yeah, would hate to have to watch Dinklage for the rest of the series without a nose though... :P Truly a disturbing image. hee hee

Never said Tysha is the reason why he is in Essos, if any thing it shows Tyrion has hit rock bottom when his only hope he got left in life is a "fools dream" of finding and getting back together with Tysha a woman he (remember the gold coin, they cut that out of the show....) and half of Tywins men raped her.

Ah well, Tyrion will always be a noseless freak in my mind :drunk:

[sati]

What happens in the show:

Shae was betrayed and hurt because she loved Tyrion. She was at no point a 'gold digging whore'

She started sleeping with Tywin out of revenge or whatever it is that drove her. Tyrion kills her for sleeping with his own father and not only betraying him in the court when he gave her a way out before, but also betraying him on such a profound level.

She knew what Tywin did to Tyrion. She knew Tywin hated him. And she slept with him anyways. This has nothing to do with her being a whore. It happens because she stabbed Tyrion in the back in the worst possible way. She was his and then she gave herself to the man Tyrion hates the most in the world.

[Yojimbo]

What happens in the show:

Shae was betrayed and hurt because she loved Tyrion. She was at no point a 'gold digging whore'

She started sleeping with Tywin out of revenge or whatever it is that drove her. Tyrion kills her for sleeping with his own father and not only betraying him in the court when he gave her a way out before, but also betraying him on such a profound level.

She knew what Tywin did to Tyrion. She knew Tywin hated him. And she slept with him anyways. This has nothing to do with her being a whore. It happens because she stabbed Tyrion in the back in the worst possible way. She was his and then she gave herself to the man Tyrion hates the most in the world.

So your saying then Shae is getting revenge on a man she loved, who if it wasn't for Jamie was going to be executed the next day, by shagging his dear old pop? Was TV Shae reading the books and thought "Shit! The Imp escapes! I better shag his dad right now to get my revenge!" jumps out of bed, puts on a nice frock and runs off to the Hand's Tower so Tyrion can catch them in the act? If so then I only wish TV Shae had read the rest of the chapter............. :rofl:

[sati]

So your saying then Shae is getting revenge on a man who if it wasn't for Jamie was going to be executed the next day by shagging his dear old pop? Was TV Shae reading the books and thought "Shit! The Imp escapes! I better shag his dad right now to get my revenge!" jumps out of bed, puts on a nice frock and runs off to the Hand's Tower so Tyrion can catch them in the act? If so then I only wish TV Shae had read the rest of the chapter............. :rofl:

You have no idea when Shae/Tywin relations started. They might have started immediately after Tyrion told her to go to Pentos.

I'd like to inform you that for a woman to get her revenge the party she is mad at does not need to be aware of it.

[Yojimbo]

You have no idea when Shae/Tywin relations started. They might have started immediately after Tyrion told her to go to Pentos.

I'd like to inform you that for a woman to get her revenge the party she is mad at does not need to be aware of it.

No but I find it very funny though that she is getting her 'revenge' by sleeping with Tywin, even though poor Tyrion will be dead the next day and would never have knew about it any way. That I find utterly hysterical or did Shae know Tyrion was never going to get executed, because he was going to escape? Also you have no idea if Tywin even sleeps with Shae, your just speculating as much as myself on that.

[Banner Without Brothers]

not even close. Shae lied through her teeth!

I said "A truth" in this case a subjective personal truth from her perspective mixed in with some lies. In this case truth does not equal reality.