Can a Jon Snow + Daenerys romance work in the final book? Part 2

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Interesting post, thanks. I can't really see the Father Knows Best future for Jon and Dany, but it's a nice fantasy.

They have more chances to end up both dead. But my point is that, when asking "what's best for Jon", no one asks Jon what he wants. He might end up taking a wife he needs for the sake of the Kingdom and learn to love her but that's not what HE wants. He wants a family and someone who isn't complicated. Val IS complicated and she might end up demanding things of Jon that he neither have nor is.

[I'm the Party Pooper]

Jon's what, 16? And demonstrably not gay? And Dany is described as the most beautiful woman in the world?

Are we really and truly debating whether he'd hit it?

What does it mean ?

I'm not gay but i wouldn't hit every hot woman crossing my path, there are different kind of things one can demand from a partner beside being hot.

The way I see things is that Jon has taken for himself the culture of wildlings, of people who don't kneel and live up to their truths and strength.. he is clearly attracted by this way of living, to the point that he is noticeably not a simple "kneeler" anymore as tormund observes.

Daenerys belongs in 100% to the kneeler culture, just look at her long lasting list of titles and the fact she is The Queen, she keeps a set of formal policies to let everyone know she is the leader - like all kneeler do -, she believes that she was owed some things in virtue of her family entitlement i.e. the iron throne.

Sure she likes to walk among sick people once in a while, that's good.. though it really only underlines how she does not belong to them, because she has to go among them. Jon naturally lives among his own peer, pretty much does what every one else does and spend his time with them.

Jon notes that Queen Selise always goes around with soldiers around her to signal her power entitlement. He clearly looks like a man who can not understand the way of kneeler anymore. So I can't see him get in love with a woman of kneeler culture anymore.. even if Daenerys does not bow to anyone else, she still has people bowing to her.. and Jon Snow now looks like a man who has learned to kneel only on himself.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

There is that and the fact that Benioff and Weiss already took the Jon and Val romance behind the woodshed and put it down.

Yes. I hope the lack of Marie Sue Val is as enjoyable to her fans as it is for me the lack of Griff :D

I know show isn't books, but if Val is never ever cast, I'm sure Jon and Dany will end up together IN THE show.

JonCon that last bit was so beautiful...

See? I can be nice and tender sometimes too :3

[Jon's Queen Consort]

[snip]I'm not gay but i wouldn't hit every hot woman crossing my path, there are different kind of things one can demand from a partner beside being hot.

snip[snip]

Perfect post! I just loved the bolded part. Apparently some people do think with their heads.

None of those are facts. They are complete opinions

It is an opinion that Dany uses thename "Usurper's dog" for Ned and that for Jon Ned is his father? Lol ok.

\We don't know that they were taking Crater's sons before then. The wolves might have been taking them. There is decent amount of signs that the magic in the world (including the Others has only returned since the Comet showed up).

Now that is rather ridiculous. You must understand it right?

Would Val and Ygritte be anything with out the other Free Folk or Mance Rayder?

Daenerys is a Queen so you cant use people doing things for her against her. She couldn't do those things even if she wanted to.

But she is not completely dependent on others, she could have just been a toy to Drogo, but instead she learned how to make him love her. She has taken what she has been givin and turned it into something. Most other women in here place would not have done half as well as she has done.

Did Val and Ygritte used Mance Rayder to be with her every single time? Don't think so. Does Ygritte have participated in at least one battle and *mission* without Mance? Yes.

There is that and the fact that Benioff and Weiss already took the Jon and Val romance behind the woodshed and put it down.

WOW! Is the series ended yet? Have you seen the last season's last episode? :eek: Please do tell more!

JonCon that last bit was so beautiful...

JQC, this is probably another impasse for us but just think about what their future child could be named...
Jhaegard Snowstorm

:D

I am feeling sick to my stomach. :ack:

[ThePrunesThatWasPromised]

JonCon that last bit was so beautiful...

JQC, this is probably another impasse for us but just think about what their future child could be named...

Jhaegard Snowstorm

:D

Barrenstan the Batboy

[sj4iy]

I hate the idea of it.

[LordStoneheart]

I am feeling sick to my stomach. :ack:

Couldn't resist, mate.

[rhaenys666]

Why are there so many Dany haters on a very clear Dany thread ?

Also, for those aforementioned Dany haters, who believe she would be nothing without her dragons, are you forgetting that there weren't any dragons before she walked into the damn FIRE AND BROUGHT THEM OUT ????? THAT B!TCH IS MAGIC !

MAGIC !!!!!!!!

Also, wouldn't it be a bit creepy if they did end up together ? Only if they're actually related....maybe not so creepy because she would be his aunt (cousins marrying each other is legit, look at Tywin and Joanna)....but whatever. Targaryens keep it pure by marrying each other anyways. I think it's just too nicely packaged if they end up together, no matter how many beloved characters die.

[Squab]

Considering they're both young leaders, i hope he kills one of them off before that happens, if he hasn't already. Would seem more likely for his writing.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So ... no one hardly anyone else sees that they're set up as people who absolutely would not go for each other?

Jon follows the idea that an executioner should do his or her own work, he's revolted at the idea of the Florent letting his brother be burned alive, he is turned off by Selyse (you know, someone who shows up without knowing dick about a place or its situation and starts trying to run it) and he lives pretty simply, shunning things like constant bodyguards and even the lord commander's quarters. Since Jon has come to respect and even admire a culture that places value on merit and not birth, I also can't see him getting through her mile-long list of self-styled titles before politely asking her to shut the hell up.

Dany likes men who come off as alpha, flashy and/or aggressive in some way. Jon in comparison is a wet blanket.

Granted from my perspective I can see far more for Jon to dislike about Dany than vice versa, but I'm sure someone with opposite opinions can argue that she has no reason to like him, either. In Jon's case, the differences relate to seemingly deeply held values and I don't see them changing.

Why are there so many Dany haters on a very clear Dany thread ?

This may surprise you, but people can post wherever they damn well please.

[Julia H.]

What does it mean ?

I'm not gay but i wouldn't hit every hot woman crossing my path, there are different kind of things one can demand from a partner beside being hot.

The way I see things is that Jon has taken for himself the culture of wildlings, of people who don't kneel and live up to their truths and strength.. he is clearly attracted by this way of living, to the point that he is noticeably not a simple "kneeler" anymore as tormund observes.

Daenerys belongs in 100% to the kneeler culture, just look at her long lasting list of titles and the fact she is The Queen, she keeps a set of formal policies to let everyone know she is the leader - like all kneeler do -, she believes that she was owed some things in virtue of her family entitlement i.e. the iron throne.

Sure she likes to walk among sick people once in a while, that's good.. though it really only underlines how she does not belong to them, because she has to go among them. Jon naturally lives among his own peer, pretty much does what every one else does and spend his time with them.

Jon notes that Queen Selise always goes around with soldiers around her to signal her power entitlement. He clearly looks like a man who can not understand the way of kneeler anymore. So I can't see him get in love with a woman of kneeler culture anymore.. even if Daenerys does not bow to anyone else, she still has people bowing to her.. and Jon Snow now looks like a man who has learned to kneel only on himself.

Very good arguments. :agree:

I'm also thinking of a cultural difference between them. Dany may like the idea - at one point she thinks she could have married Rhaegar's son Aegon if he had not been killed as a baby. Another son of Rhaegar's might just seem perfect to her, in theory at least. However, Jon learned about sexuality and marriage from Ygritte, and she taught him that exogamy was the only way:

"A true man steals a woman from afar t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters."

I read this as a statement about the Targaryens and as a warning: "Never marry your aunt, Jon."

ETA: Apple Martini... Well said.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Very good arguments. :agree:

I'm also thinking of a cultural difference between them. Dany may like the idea - at one point she thinks she could have married Rhaegar's son Aegon if he had not been killed as a baby. Another son of Rhaegar's might just seem perfect to her, in theory at least. However, Jon learned about sexuality and marriage from Ygritte, and she taught him that exogamy was the only way:

"A true man steals a woman from afar t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters."

I read this as a statement about the Targaryens and as a warning: "Never marry your aunt, Jon."

ETA: Apple Martini... Well said.

Every one says Jon has adopted the Wild links way but he left and went back to the Watch. He bent the knee to the acting LC when he returned.

He feels guilty for sleeping with Ygritte.

Mance was a Crow but Jon still leaves even though he could followed his example.

He fought against the willing when they attacked the Wall.

Just because he has learned things from the willing does not make him a wildling. He learned things from the Starks, from Mormont, from Aegon Targaryen.

That's the point, Jon is learning from everyone from places other Kings would not learn.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Every one says Jon has adopted the Wild links way but he left and went back to the Watch. He bent the knee to the acting LC when he returned.

He feels guilty for sleeping with Ygritte.

Mance was a Crow but Jon still leaves even though he could followed his example.

He fought against the willing when they attacked the Wall.

Just because he has learned things from the willing does not make him a wildling. He learned things from the Starks, from Mormont, from Aegon Targaryen.

That's the point, Jon is learning from everyone from places other Kings would not learn.

I don't think it's all that controversial to suggest that Jon's time with the wildlings has changed his perspective on things, even if he did ultimately go back to the Watch. Obviously his time there changed him in some meaningful way or writing it at all would have been pointless.

[OldGimletEye]

So ... no one hardly anyone else sees that they're set up as people who absolutely would not go for each other?

Jon follows the idea that an executioner should do his or her own work, he's revolted at the idea of the Florent letting his brother be burned alive, he is turned off by Selyse (you know, someone who shows up without knowing dick about a place or its situation and starts trying to run it) and he lives pretty simply, shunning things like constant bodyguards and even the lord commander's quarters. Since Jon has come to respect and even admire a culture that places value on merit and not birth, I also can't see him getting through her mile-long list of self-styled titles before politely asking her to shut the hell up.

Dany likes men who come off as alpha, flashy and/or aggressive in some way. Jon in comparison is a wet blanket.

Granted from my perspective I can see far more for Jon to dislike about Dany than vice versa, but I'm sure someone with opposite opinions can argue that she has no reason to like him, either. In Jon's case, the differences relate to seemingly deeply held values and I don't see them changing.

In other words, John falling for Dany is about as likely as Sam Damon getting the hots for Courtney Massengale.

[LordStoneheart]

Perhaps its time I give up the point since every time I make it no one seems to agree... I'll put it forth one last time and then retire it.

Humans are not imprinting birds. One may have a "type" but that does cement them into liking that type forever and rejecting all others. Ultimately the story will go where it goes and I do not think they will marry or interact much, but the last reason in my mind for that is "type" or their current opinions of others. Teenagers are not exactly the model for consistency...

I will freely admit though that the reasons I'd like them together are that it might be a good callback to the title (the only reason I even read the books was the title) and because I think it would make Dany very happy to be with the son of her beloved brother Rhaegar. Squicky, but sweet in a way

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Perhaps its time I give up the point since every time I make it no one seems to agree... I'll put it forth one last time and then retire it.

Humans are not imprinting birds. One may have a "type" but that does cement them into liking that type forever and rejecting all others. Ultimately the story will go where it goes and I do not think they will marry or interact much, but the last reason in my mind for that is "type" or their current opinions of others. Teenagers are not exactly the model for consistency...

I will freely admit though that the reasons I'd like them together are that it might be a good callback to the title (the only reason I even read the books was the title) and because I think it would make Dany very happy to be with the son of her beloved brother Rhaegar. Squicky, but sweet in a way

Jon's a callback to the title on his own. :P

In other words, John falling for Dany is about as likely as Sam Damon getting the hots for Courtney Massengale.

Pretty much. Although I do think it's interesting that Dany fans seem more open to the idea of them together than Jon fans.

I'm not kidding, I think he'd find her insufferable. Burns people alive? Check. Stood by while her brother was killed? Check (even if the circumstances were more excusable). Sets herself up as being in charge of a place she knowing nothing about? Check. Embraces the trappings of power and wealth? Check. Bases claim on birth instead of merit? Check. Seriously, what would he like about her? He might admire the idea of abolition, but I'm betting not how she did it. And beauty isn't enough; Jon recognized that Cersei was a knockout but still saw through her. This notion of "Whoa she's hot!" being sufficient feels remarkably shallow.

[LordStoneheart]

Actually last time I advocated for Jonerys (...no... that felt unclean... ) I basically said that what would prevent it from being cliche or cheesy would be Jon not enjoying the marriage at all for some of the above reasons. Much better than if it was mutual, no?

I think in that regard Jon might parallel Stannis. xD

[sj4iy]

Perhaps its time I give up the point since every time I make it no one seems to agree... I'll put it forth one last time and then retire it.

Humans are not imprinting birds. One may have a "type" but that does cement them into liking that type forever and rejecting all others. Ultimately the story will go where it goes and I do not think they will marry or interact much, but the last reason in my mind for that is "type" or their current opinions of others. Teenagers are not exactly the model for consistency...

I will freely admit though that the reasons I'd like them together are that it might be a good callback to the title (the only reason I even read the books was the title) and because I think it would make Dany very happy to be with the son of her beloved brother Rhaegar. Squicky, but sweet in a way

Dany never met Rhaegar. Not sure how he could "beloved" by her when he died before she was born.

[LordStoneheart]

Dany never met Rhaegar. Not sure how he could "beloved" by her when he died before she was born.

Does him being dead discredit every fantasy she has about him? When she meets Barristan her questions are mostly about him. I think Dany does have a certain amount of learned admiration of Rhaegar to the point of "love." that's more of the romanticizing of the past. She knows little about him but seems to love him more than Viserys.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Jon's a callback to the title on his own.

It's my feeling that a Song (story) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar) is about the love they shared, the child they created (Jon, tPtwP) but also the fracturing of Kingdom that love and child caused.