Can a Jon Snow + Daenerys romance work in the final book? Part 2

[Hodor's Dragon]

In other words, John falling for Dany is about as likely as Sam Damon getting the hots for Courtney Massengale.

I have no idea who those people are, but if Jon and Dany ever meet, I'd be pretty shocked if he isn't attracted to her, and vice versa is nearly as certain.

[Lady Flandrensis]

Please, in the name of all that's good, no.

[Ruin]

Ghost and Drogon could hit it off as friends. Ambush some Boltons, burn down Casterly Rock...those two would have a blast.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Dany never met Rhaegar. Not sure how he could "beloved" by her when he died before she was born.

Maybe it's not "beloved," but she idolizes him. Jorah and Barristan feel pretty much the same way.

I'm not kidding, I think he'd find her insufferable. Burns people alive? Check. Stood by while her brother was killed? Check (even if the circumstances were more excusable). Sets herself up as being in charge of a place she knowing nothing about? Check. Embraces the trappings of power and wealth? Check. Bases claim on birth instead of merit? Check. Seriously, what would he like about her? He might admire the idea of abolition, but I'm betting not how she did it. And beauty isn't enough; Jon recognized that Cersei was a knockout but still saw through her. This notion of "Whoa she's hot!" being sufficient feels remarkably shallow.

OK, for starters, Jon will most likely have no idea of any of this when he meets her. He will notice that she's hot. He's 16. Anybody arguing he's not going to be attracted to her has a high burden to meet, because that's unnatural for a virile 16-year-old who rarely sees women. Do you know any 16-year-old boys?

Second, I'm not going to do it, but I could make a list of great things she has done that's ten times that long. Some of it would be damned impressive for intelligence, some of it would be damned impressive for heart and generosity.

But let's look at your list:

Burns people alive? Check.

Definitely a very bad thing, and the result of a lost temper. However, the provocation was extreme - not going to recap it, but definitely extreme. Also, it was apparently necessary to the story for lives to be given to birth the dragons, and perhaps even the flame was necessary: remember the HOTU vision of the dragon flying from MMD on the stake?

Worst thing on the list, by far, but not really beyond standard justice in those days, particularly for such a vile crime (at least as Dany perceives it). St. Ned has been known to shorten a few in his day for lesser crimes than that, and you know he wouldn't and couldn't have taken a child hostage unless he was prepared to kill that child hostage if circumstances call for it. Otherwise, he could never take a hostage again and even his house would find it difficult for a long time.

I dare say most of the lords we're introduced to wouldn't think twice about burning alive someone who the lord considered responsible for the death of a spouse and a child.

Stood by while her brother was killed? Check (even if the circumstances were more excusable).

"[M]ore" excusable? How about "perfectly" excusable, because impossibility is about as good as excuses come. And furthermore if she saved him tonight, he would surely die tomorrow. He was acting suicidally, and he had to die.

Sets herself up as being in charge of a place she knowing nothing about?

Wrong. She knew they were slaveholders, and she ended that. And this is just something that is in the conquerer job description. I don't think Jon is anti-conquerer. The opposite, in fact, he admires historical conquerors.

Embraces the trappings of power and wealth? Check. Bases claim on birth instead of merit? Check.

Jon grew up around lords. Every single one of 'em did both these things - I mean really, "bases claim on birth," you're telling me that makes her stand out from the crowd? And don't tell me that the Starks with their glass gardens, heated walls and large private godswood aren't embracing wealth and power. Dany is a queen, and I don't know about Westeros, but on this planet the theory goes that the sovereign represents the state and should present herself in a fashion that does honor to the state. During the medieval age on this planet, the smallfolk would hardly stand for a royal who didn't dress grandly and live grandly in a grand palace: truly, you would be asking for serious unrest if you were a queen and went around clothed in common fashion.

In that context, Dany can hardly be tagged with living ostentatiously. She wears beautiful dresses, but that's pure crowd show. She took down the grand throne in Meereen to sit on a bench. She eats well, but there's not a single 67-course feast on hummingbird tongues in the whole series. Most compellingly, we read her mind the whole time and we never see her craving luxury or wealth, just comfort, rest, love and home, with a little revenge thrown in from time to time.

He might admire the idea of abolition, but I'm betting not how she did it.

Yeah, how should she have done it, then? Circulated a petition among the Wise Masters?

I hate seeing one-sided pile-ons like this on any character. You're way too smart to think you're giving the whole story. This grossly perverts Dany's story and is an insult to Martin's vision.

[Arya Targaryen]

He will notice that she's hot. He's 16. Anybody arguing he's not going to be attracted to her has a high burden to meet, because that's unnatural for a virile 16-year-old who rarely sees women. Do you know any 16-year-old boys?

Val IS hot. She has been around Jon for a while, and is always described as beautiful. However, when Stannis offered Wf to Jon, along with Val, he basically thinks something like "she is not hard to look at" which is a bit far from :drool:

Jon may recognize Dany as a beauty, however, what he think of her is largely based on 1) what he hears of her previously; 2) what will be Dany's attitude towards him. If she starts with "bastard son of the Usurper, KNEEEEEL, I'M *titles titles*! then it's practically impossible for him to feel any love towards her.

If they meet with Dany saying, "Oh hi, I'm here to help you out with this ice zombie situation, look, I have armies, and dragons, and I can ride one of them BTW, so what do we do?" - then Jon may feel attracted towards him.

And Jon has plenty of info about what happens in Westeros, which he receives off-page, so we definitely don't know what rumours have reached him about Dany.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Actually, her coming in roaring titles, etc., would probably qualify as "meeting cute" in the Hollywood vernacular if they talked around it and got to like each other anyway. Conflict and sexual tension are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Hasn't Jon started a relationship with a little bit of conflict before? Trying to search my memory here. . . .

But yes, you're right, it very much depends on the situation as to how he will react internally, and as for externally, this is Jon Snow, he's going to roll low-key either way. He ain't no Daario. And whether Dany is barking orders or not is pretty situationally-dependent, too, but if she has spent much time with Tyrion by now she will probably be polite and maybe even friendly, although she for sure won't be throwing her royal person at him.

I tend to think that Jon hearing about Dany is something that would be reported to us as readers, not hidden, but maybe I'm wrong about that. If they ever do meet, though, you've got to figure it's very likely he will have heard of her by then - but maybe not through reliable intelligence, and he's not going to know much about most of what she has done unless Jorah or Barristan is the informant. But it's a relatively safe bet he will recognize her without an introduction, I'd say. They're not going to bump into each other at the market.

[Disputatious]

Last time I checked Jon wasn't attracted to himself and or Ned or Jaime etc. So to bring them up is irrelevant and unneeded. And no being a leader doesn't mean that everything else do your work. Dany has done nothing she just orders people, Jon has done things and he keeps doing things even after becoming LC.

Daenerys is a small, not very muscular woman with no training in the use of arms. On the face of it this comment is an absurdity.

[Kaguya]

I would rather them as enemies.

[LordStoneheart]

Why can't they be married and enemies? :leer:

[Jane Parallel]

If Dany goes to the Wall for help rinding her Drogon I think that would make her "HOT" to every men there in the Wall... But not for that is that Jon is going to fall in love. He may see her as a resemblance of Queen Alyssane Targaryen that help in some ways to the Night's Watch.

Personally I would like to read a bitter relation between these two. Dany trying to gain his favors and failing again and again and again. All men she had met until know, all men wanted to gain her favors... just because she is a queen and beautiful and smart and somehow powerful.

Some have argued that Dany is not a warrior-like Ygritte... or Brienne... or Arya. No, she is not. She has not wielded a sword. That's the only point that I miss from Dany's character... I would like to read her more warrior... just like Visenya or Rhaenys. She has Barristan Selmy to teach her but she never asked for training.

Nevertheless we can't simply ignore Dany is smart and has leadership skills. To be followed by hundreds of people is not easy. To have control over dragons is not easy. She has handled very hard situations... and yes, she needs help... everybody needs help, specially kings and queens... and advice and a hand to execute her orders.

I think Dany is the big figure in this story. I think Jon is the blue flower that she must pick up when she goes to the Wall. But it will cost her... a lot. Jon won't make it easier. He is a massive block of ice... ask Melisandre. :laugh:

Of course, that in the case Jon survives and don't fall for Melisandre.

[Jane Parallel]

Btw... many people think that the Song of Ice and Fire refers to Lyanna and Rhaegar... or Jon and Daenerys.

I believe Martin will surprise us and the Song of Ice and Fire refers to Jon and Melisandre... :eek:

[PirateVergo]

There is that and the fact that Benioff and Weiss already took the Jon and Val romance behind the woodshed and put it down.

Benioff and Weiss are extremely biased and I got cancer when I saw what they did to Tywin and Robb.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Perhaps its time I give up the point since every time I make it no one seems to agree... I'll put it forth one last time and then retire it.

Humans are not imprinting birds. One may have a "type" but that does cement them into liking that type forever and rejecting all others. Ultimately the story will go where it goes and I do not think they will marry or interact much, but the last reason in my mind for that is "type" or their current opinions of others. Teenagers are not exactly the model for consistency...

I will freely admit though that the reasons I'd like them together are that it might be a good callback to the title (the only reason I even read the books was the title) and because I think it would make Dany very happy to be with the son of her beloved brother Rhaegar. Squicky, but sweet in a way

Perhaps. But as AM said, Jon fits the bill alone. Having said that fire and ice don't really mix well. Either one douses the other, or one is melted by the other. Even though Jon is a product of Ice & Fire (likely), you could perhaps see the symbolism in Lyanna (ice) dying after mingling with Rhaegar (fire).

[JonisHenryTudor]

Why can't they be married and enemies? :leer:

Yes perfect, just like the movie War of the Roses with Danny DeVito.

[Disputatious]

Whether there is time for a romance, will depend on how Jon reacts to being bribed (with a dragon and a relationship with the fairest woman in the land) and threatened (with a dragon, and probably also Dany's bloodriders) into breaking his Night Watch oath and marrying his aunt. Probably not well, I should think.

Furthermore there will have to be children, because Dany's primary motive in doing this will be the survival of House Targaryen and the Targaryen dynasty. If there is anything in the end to Mirri's curse, I think that Marwyn will put right what she marred, though this will depend on what he learned from her in exchange for teaching her the healing of the Citadel. Dany will likely be initially angry that her newly acquired Maester was inadvertently responsible for her trusting Mirri in the first place.

For Dany, the advantage, besides the dynastic one, is a husband that she can trust, something she will value. Judging by the reactions of Val and Ygritte, also a husband who is attractive to women. On the other hand Rhaegar's son, who is "sullen" as Alys Karstark put it (she would have married Jon anyway, natural born or not). Will Dany be pleased to discover what her revered brother was really like in basic temperament?

[Disputatious]

Perhaps. But as AM said, Jon fits the bill alone. Having said that fire and ice don't really mix well. Either one douses the other, or one is melted by the other. Even though Jon is a product of Ice & Fire (likely), you could perhaps see the symbolism in Lyanna (ice) dying after mingling with Rhaegar (fire).

From the HOTU: advice to Dany: "Drink from the cup of ice .... drink from the cup of fire." One way of making good on the first part is to coerce Jon into marrying her.

[Kyoshi]

I'm very sorry for derailing the thread but I just couldn't resist. I sincerely apologise.

Missandei: Kneel to Daenerys Stormborn, the Unburnt, the Mother of Dragons, The Khaleesi of the Dothraki, Breaker of Chains, Queen of Meereen, the Mhysa of Freed Men, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Protecter of the Realm and Lady of the Seven Kingdoms, the last Targaryen…until now..maybe…no one is really sure to be honest, we all just go with it…

Dany: Thank you, Missandei. You can call me Daenerys.

Jon: I’m Jon. Wouldn’t aunt Daenerys be more appropriate though?

Dany: You’re older than me. Stop being a smart ass.

Jon: I’ve always wondered who was the first person to assign intelligence to asses; dumb ass, smart ass. Did you ever wonder?

Dany: Not really. And don’t be an even bigger smart ass than you were before.

Jon: If that’s how you want to do it. I thought I’d break the ice.

Dany: We’d need the horn of Joramum for that, wouldn’t we?

Jon: Now who’s being a smart ass?

Dany: you are. Anyway, we should talk about this throne business. You know people want us to get married, right?

Jon: It’s weird, you’re my aunt.

Dany: You’re older. Stop it with the aunt thing.

Jon: you stop it.

Dany: you stop it.

Jon: you stop it.

Dany: You…

Missandei: My queen, this one…I would like to remind you that Ser Barristan is also here. He looked to be in a hurry, my queen.

Dany: We’ll talk later, smart ass. And no more riding the dragon unless I say so. It’s too dangerous out there. I never gave him to you anyway, smart ass.

Jon: Yes, Aunt Daenerys.

Dany: Stop it...

Ser Barristan: Your Grace...

….............

[LordStoneheart]

He does fit the bill as far as his parentage, but he's rarely been a "fire" person. He's the ice side of the story and Dany is the fire. Just as Disputatious said, I think Dany does have to somehow find balance between the two. After all, Jon may be the one with the Song of Ice and Fire, but it is Dany who actually saw that vision.

Kyoshi... you're great at those. :D

[Mithras]

I don't think so. It seems like there will be too much misunderstanding between them. Team fAegon will spread lies about Dany. I think by the time they meet each other, Dany will be pregnant and close to death.

[Vylarr Rivers]

I really hope there will be nothing of that sort. Didn't Westeros have enough inbreds on the throne yet?