Julia H. Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Every one says Jon has adopted the Wild links way but he left and went back to the Watch. He bent the knee to the acting LC when he returned.He feels guilty for sleeping with Ygritte.Mance was a Crow but Jon still leaves even though he could followed his example.He fought against the willing when they attacked the Wall.Just because he has learned things from the willing does not make him a wildling. He learned things from the Starks, from Mormont, from Aegon Targaryen.That's the point, Jon is learning from everyone from places other Kings would not learn. Yes, he learns from everyone in the North. He is culturally as Northern as possible and he learns that the wildlings are part of this culture rather than the true enemies. He leaves Ygritte and feels guilty about loving her, but he still loves her and he also mourns for her. What I find important is that he regularly recalls her and her words in important moments. "You know nothing, Jon Snow" becomes his personal motto, but that is not at all the only thing that Ygritte told him and he remembers from time to time and, as I said, in important moments. Anyway, the quote about exogamy is in the novel, and I think it is very relevant with regard to Dany and Jon, so I expect it has some significance. Exogamy and endogamy are one aspect of the Westerosi North - South divide. One extreme is the wildlings' strict exogamy in the far North, the other extreme is the Targaryens' brother-sister marriages. There is an ideology behind both (strengthening the clan and keeping the bloodline pure). The Lannisters' secret incest (following the example of the Targaryens) has disastrous results. The rest of the Seven Kingdoms will not embrace incest, but they do practice a milder form of endogamy when they marry within their own social circles, so that most noble families are related to each other. It is a scale, where Dany is associated with the southern extreme, while Jon with the northern one. Kyoshi... :rofl: I can see that scene! Lord Stoneheart... I see Jon as the son / song of Ice and Fire by himself but I can also see that he is an Ice person while Dany is the Fire one, absolutely. But why on earth does that mean they have to be romatically involved? There must be other ways for them to interact and reach some kind of balance. I think if they got married, one of them would have to give up some of their Ice / Fire personality, and it would likely be Jon, since Dany has nothing to do with Ice. He would have to agree to incest to start with, which is, I think, a southern (Fire) principle, as I explained above; so there wouldn't be balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disputatious Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 So far as the basic question goes, I think the issue is whether there is time for something like the relationship between Lord Eddard and Lady Catelyn to emerge. It would, I think, be ironic if in that respect the series ended in something like the way it began, though not with a Lord and Lady, but with a King and Queen. Part of the bitter part of the ending may be that there is not enough time for this to unfold.Btw, it will not help if Daario's end comes with Ghost's jaws around his throat. I can see this happening. Naharis can tolerate, up to a point, the marriage with Hizdahr, because he has no respect for the man and knows that Dany has little affection for Hizdahr and will probably never acquire much more. Jon and perhaps even Aegon are another matter. Jon has made mistakes as Lord Commander of the NW, but if he survives the Ides of Marsh, then he will continue to become "every inch a King". Daario will see Jon as serious competition; what he may not realize is that a direwolf guided by a skin changer is a mortal threat. (And never mind that Ghost may not be that easy to see against the snow.) :) Or, it falls out that way, Daario is likely never to realize just how dangerous Arya and Nymeria are. Or just Arya, unless he somehow learns that she is a Faceless Man in training, and even then the cocky SOB will probably underestimate her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragons Hand Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 "I'm Daeneyrs Stormborn... <titles titles>..."half an hour later"And you can call me Jon"I think they can work together. I want her with Aegon, but Jon's k. I am AeJon StarKaryen, song of ice and fire, son of the she-wolf and quiet dragon, *Titles, etc*But my friends call me Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragons Hand Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Some would say that is treachery, not outsmarting them. As far as doing her own work, Jorah does a lot. Then Selmy. Reznak tortures people for information. Hizdar secures the "peace" in Mereen. Others crucify the 163. By herself, she's smothered and burned Drogo and MMD, screwed Daario, betrayed those who negotiated in good faith (although for the point of abolishing slavery. I don't like the method, although the ends worked out with the unsullied), betrayed those who negotiated in good faith (battle outside Yunkai), and tamed a dragon. The last one is pretty cool. Aside from that, she doesn't hold a candle to Ygritte in terms of doing her own work. Fierce, I can see, although it's tempered unlike Ygritte's. I'm not sure those two aren't one in the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragons Hand Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Well. Again, Val is hot. And she's the only hot chick around. And I don't think Jon has fallen for her, he has just noticed that she's hot. Maybe you can put Ygritte and Val together for a tiny smidgeon of evidence that Jon has a certain type, but it sure ain't convincing. I think pretty much any straight guy would've gone for Ygritte under those very special circumstances, and 100% of straight guys would notice that Val is attractive. So you don't even get to the part of figuring out whether Dany is that type. (But if you do, she is. . . .) Fair enough. Wildlings are the only types of females around and they all seem to be what most people would coin "Jon's type". Or perhaps it is just because we haven't had the chance to see Jon interact with other types. P.S: Your account image is godlike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragons Hand Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Why are there so many Dany haters on a very clear Dany thread ? Also, for those aforementioned Dany haters, who believe she would be nothing without her dragons, are you forgetting that there weren't any dragons before she walked into the damn FIRE AND BROUGHT THEM OUT ????? THAT B!TCH IS MAGIC ! MAGIC !!!!!!!! Also, wouldn't it be a bit creepy if they did end up together ? Only if they're actually related....maybe not so creepy because she would be his aunt (cousins marrying each other is legit, look at Tywin and Joanna)....but whatever. Targaryens keep it pure by marrying each other anyways. I think it's just too nicely packaged if they end up together, no matter how many beloved characters die. "That bitch is magic" /EndForumWeKnowAllWeNeedToKnowHereForReal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragons Hand Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Ghost and Drogon could hit it off as friends. Ambush some Boltons, burn down Casterly Rock...those two would have a blast. I NEED that spinoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragons Hand Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Maybe it's not "beloved," but she idolizes him. Jorah and Barristan feel pretty much the same way. OK, for starters, Jon will most likely have no idea of any of this when he meets her. He will notice that she's hot. He's 16. Anybody arguing he's not going to be attracted to her has a high burden to meet, because that's unnatural for a virile 16-year-old who rarely sees women. Do you know any 16-year-old boys? Second, I'm not going to do it, but I could make a list of great things she has done that's ten times that long. Some of it would be damned impressive for intelligence, some of it would be damned impressive for heart and generosity. But let's look at your list: Burns people alive? Check. Definitely a very bad thing, and the result of a lost temper. However, the provocation was extreme - not going to recap it, but definitely extreme. Also, it was apparently necessary to the story for lives to be given to birth the dragons, and perhaps even the flame was necessary: remember the HOTU vision of the dragon flying from MMD on the stake? Worst thing on the list, by far, but not really beyond standard justice in those days, particularly for such a vile crime (at least as Dany perceives it). St. Ned has been known to shorten a few in his day for lesser crimes than that, and you know he wouldn't and couldn't have taken a child hostage unless he was prepared to kill that child hostage if circumstances call for it. Otherwise, he could never take a hostage again and even his house would find it difficult for a long time. I dare say most of the lords we're introduced to wouldn't think twice about burning alive someone who the lord considered responsible for the death of a spouse and a child. Stood by while her brother was killed? Check (even if the circumstances were more excusable). "[M]ore" excusable? How about "perfectly" excusable, because impossibility is about as good as excuses come. And furthermore if she saved him tonight, he would surely die tomorrow. He was acting suicidally, and he had to die. Sets herself up as being in charge of a place she knowing nothing about? Wrong. She knew they were slaveholders, and she ended that. And this is just something that is in the conquerer job description. I don't think Jon is anti-conquerer. The opposite, in fact, he admires historical conquerors. Embraces the trappings of power and wealth? Check. Bases claim on birth instead of merit? Check. Jon grew up around lords. Every single one of 'em did both these things - I mean really, "bases claim on birth," you're telling me that makes her stand out from the crowd? And don't tell me that the Starks with their glass gardens, heated walls and large private godswood aren't embracing wealth and power. Dany is a queen, and I don't know about Westeros, but on this planet the theory goes that the sovereign represents the state and should present herself in a fashion that does honor to the state. During the medieval age on this planet, the smallfolk would hardly stand for a royal who didn't dress grandly and live grandly in a grand palace: truly, you would be asking for serious unrest if you were a queen and went around clothed in common fashion. In that context, Dany can hardly be tagged with living ostentatiously. She wears beautiful dresses, but that's pure crowd show. She took down the grand throne in Meereen to sit on a bench. She eats well, but there's not a single 67-course feast on hummingbird tongues in the whole series. Most compellingly, we read her mind the whole time and we never see her craving luxury or wealth, just comfort, rest, love and home, with a little revenge thrown in from time to time. He might admire the idea of abolition, but I'm betting not how she did it. Yeah, how should she have done it, then? Circulated a petition among the Wise Masters? I hate seeing one-sided pile-ons like this on any character. You're way too smart to think you're giving the whole story. This grossly perverts Dany's story and is an insult to Martin's vision. That was............ wow. Excellent, I just..... That was a perfect line. ETA: Also I agree with your points and they are well thought out, I was just distracted by that excellent sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Long romance unnecessary: they'll just rub against each other too much to ignore while they're riding Drogon after she rescues him. Going Steady unnecessary: she can go back to the capital fondly remembering the guy who's looking after the north for her, with the promise of them flying to see each other more in the future. Ghost & dragons: like those youtubes of cats flolicking with purcupines and alligators. Inspiration-based hookup: she sees Jon feeding people as best he can and doing the leadership thing right, and realizes she can do the same on an even bigger scale by farming Easteros to feed Westeros using Jon's example and continuing advice. The Sex: alternating hot and cold is not unheard of as a technique. Private Punishment for Daenerys' Public Warcrimes: Jon takes her to The Dungeon for some fetish play and makes damn sure she learns her lesson. Alliser Thorne really loses his lunch when he hears this going on in the appartment above his and uses a broomhandle to rap on the ceiling as he yells at the two of them to keep the noise down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 A common mistake in such threads is to assume that these two people will be the same as they are in the end of ADwD and they will meet instantaneously in TWoW. They simply won’t. It should take a lot of story time before they can meet each other in a sensible fashion. One should make certain assumptions about what the heck will happen before their meeting and how those events will affect them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor's Dragon Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 A common mistake in such threads is to assume that these two people will be the same as they are in the end of ADwD and they will meet instantaneously in TWoW. They simply won’t. It should take a lot of story time before they can meet each other in a sensible fashion. One should make certain assumptions about what the heck will happen before their meeting and how those events will affect them. Very true. Further, If they ever meet at all, they'll both probably be too damned busy. No get-to-know-each-other cuppa at Starbucks will be in the cards. If love develops, it would be kind of an office romance. Something that happens organically while they're fighting the Others together as brothers in arms. Make that aunt and nephew in arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I NEED that spinoff. It should be a Saturday morning cartoon. The Ghost and Drogon show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Daenerys is a small, not very muscular woman with no training in the use of arms. On the face of it this comment is an absurdity. This is ridiculous. Someone is able to be independent even if he is not a fighter. However Dany isn't either fighter or independed. Jon's type are independed fighter women. Again Dany isn't either a fighter or independed. Couldn't resist, mate. <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 It's happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Kit: well I think they're gonna fight or fuck... GRRM: ok lets see what the fans want.. how many want to see'em fight? Fans: ....... GRRM: how many want to see'em fuck? Fans: WOOOOHHHHH!!!YEAHHHHHH!!!!!! Kit: start then writing that, George begin @ 35:56 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQkHLDhmSNE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KINGpanther Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 It's happening. How does that mean it's happening? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KINGpanther Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 How pissed will Jorah be if Jon+Dany happens. The guy with his family blade stealing the girl of his dreams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor's Dragon Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 How pissed will Jorah be if Jon+Dany happens. The guy with his family blade stealing the girl of his dreams. That's when Jorah commits the treason for love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Morgan Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Kit: well I think they're gonna fight or fuck... GRRM: ok lets see what the fans want.. how many want to see'em fight? Fans: ....... GRRM: how many want to see'em fuck? Fans: WOOOOHHHHH!!!YEAHHHHHH!!!!!! Kit: start then writing that, George begin @ 35:56 Was it in video? I didn't watch all 45:09. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SacreBlue Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Would be too cheesy. I hope not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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