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Eddard the Builder

Queen Regent? (Book Spoilers)

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So there's a bit of confusion here. In the books Tywin dismisses Cersei from the Council, however here it seems that Cersei is still Queen Regent. Or at least I thought until this episode. Oberyn says she's the former Queen Regent (because Joff has come of age in the show version), was she reappointed Regent after Tommen I took the throne? And if so, why then did Tommen say that Tywin was Hand of the King and Protector of the Realm?


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Because Tommen is parroting exactly what he's been told to say, by Tywin. And Tywin isn't going to cede one ounce of power or title to Cersei. Period.

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Because Tommen is parroting exactly what he's been told to say, by Tywin. And Tywin isn't going to cede one ounce of power or title to Cersei. Period.

Agreed. If Tommen had kept reading, he probably would have gone on to say, "...and I King Tommen, the First of My Name, King of the Andals and the First Men, declare my mother Cersei Lannister to be a spoiled brat who needs to listen to her father and do as she's told."

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Here's a question on something I just noticed when I resaw the last two episodes. When Tommen is addressed he is said to be Tommen Barathean, First of His Name, etc. Now is this not a change from Joffrey who9 styled himself Joffry Barathean-Lannister, First of his name? And if I have it right why the change?


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I think the show sort of dropped the ball regarding the politics.



Queen just means you married a king. Her only real job is to have the king's children so he can have heirs. She has no powers of state, though her proximity to the king and social status typically translates into a type of authority.



However, when Robert died, Cersei called herself queen REGENT. A Regent rules for the actual king because he is still underage. He or she has real power and authority.



The show makes it sound like QUEEN has power, and regent is an afterthought. Of course, Tywin Lannister had the money, soldiers, and reputation to wield actual power regardless of titles. When he realized Cersei had no business being in charge of a company picnic, he planned to send her away and probably claim the regency for himself. Cersei was in no position to stop him.



Yet, on the show it makes it look like by marrying Joffrey, Margaery would become Queen Regent and that simply isn't true. Margaery's pep talk to Sansa about "children learning from their mothers" is a better description of the power she would have.


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"Cersei was in no position to stop him. "




Well she had no true power that is true. As her namiing herself regent this is only a bit off. In the real world in the real world in England the House of Lord's (or later the House of Commons) would have likely been the political body to proclaim a "Regent" (In the case of George III's incapacity due to madness it was the House of Commons who declared his son Regent). In Westeros it would of probably been the Small Council's duty to confirm a Regent. In the present case it's not really an issure as the members of the small council are in Tywin's pocket and Cersi calling herself "Regent" really is irrelevant as long as Tywin is around. If he were to leave the scene for any reason then the council's acquiesance in Cerci's declaring herself Regent becomes important.




"Yet, on the show it makes it look like by marrying Joffrey, Margaery would becomearrow-10x10.png Queen Regent and that simply isn't true. "



Actually having been Joffrey's Queen might, but for the fact that the Lannister's totally control the small council, might have given Margary a decent argument why she would have deserved to be named Regent. However, the fact that the marriage was not consumated probably means that the marriage was legally void (which in itself is a pretty important fact since in Fuedal times if a woman was legally married to one brother she could not legally marry her brother in law if her husband died. So, that depending on how close Westros Law and the Religion of the 7 actually mirrored English fuedal law and Catholic doctrine of the time, the fact that Margarey never consummated her marriage to Joffrey is quite relevant as to whether she is a proper candidate to marry Tommen. Might want to research the sckism between the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church caused by the Pope's refusal to annul the marriage between Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon, and the Church of England's subsequent declaration that the marriage was void (since Catherine had previously married Henry's brother;under circumstances in which the consummation of that marriage was highly problematic) .

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Agreed. If Tommen had kept reading, he probably would have gone on to say, "...and I King Tommen, the First of My Name, King of the Andals and the First Men, declare my mother Cersei Lannister to be a spoiled brat who needs to listen to her father and do as she's told."

LOL.

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Actually having been Joffrey's Queen might, but for the fact that the Lannister's totally control the small council, might have given Margary a decent argument why she would have deserved to be named Regent.

Nope. The only way Marg would be Queen Regent is if she had given birth. Without a child she would never be Regent.

Upon Joff's death she becomes dowager Queen - purely titular with no power.

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You don't have to give birth to be a regent. Regents simply rule in place of a minor king; Robert wanted to name Eddard Joffrey's regent and Kevan wanted to be Tommen's regent despite not having personally given birth to the reigning king.There's no way the Lannisters would allow Margaery to be Tommen's regent but if they did lose their minds they could technically do it.

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Agreed. If Tommen had kept reading, he probably would have gone on to say, "...and I King Tommen, the First of My Name, King of the Andals and the First Men, declare my mother Cersei Lannister to be a spoiled brat who needs to listen to her father and do as she's told."

And to start with, she is to marry a suitable Lord and have children that at least remotely resemble somebody in the Lord's family.

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You don't have to give birth to be a regent. Regents simply rule in place of a minor king; Robert wanted to name Eddard Joffrey's regent and Kevan wanted to be Tommen's regent despite not having personally given birth to the reigning king.There's no way the Lannisters would allow Margaery to be Tommen's regent but if they did lose their minds they could technically do it.

Indeed.

But Margaery would never have been regent after Joffrey's death. Her marriage to Joffrey for 5 minutes gave her absolutely zero claim to the power of regency.

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Indeed.

But Margaery would never have been regent after Joffrey's death. Her marriage to Joffrey for 5 minutes gave her absolutely zero claim to the power of regency.

That's true, but that's more because she's just a kid herself rather than because of her marriage. If she had been married to Joffrey for five years, the council would have still likely chosen an older adult leader like Tywin or Mace.

A regent is basically like a castellan or a lord protector; they don't have to have any relationship to the king or any place in the line of succession. (In fact, it's probably better if they don't) Robb puts Ser Rodrik Cassel in charge of Bran and Winterfell in his absence not because Rodrik has any familial ties with himself or his family but because of Rodrik's age, stature, and experience. It's not about claims at all; Robb could have named any trusted adult leader to that position.

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