Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

REVEALnothing

Varys and Arya? [Book and show spoilers]

Recommended Posts

He sure as hell identifies this strange female ("That will be all, girl!") cupbearer that splashes some wine over him in s2e06. In s3e01, he tells Sansa that he's met Arya.

He did? Don't remember that scene. IMHO just another F-up of the show writers. Doesn't make any sense to me not revealing Arya to Tywin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmmm... Polliver who in Harrenhal still took her for a boy had no problem identifying her as "a bit broken in little chicken".

The Hound taking out three of the King's men is business as usual, but a little girl killing two of them might be worth a message to King's Landing...

Varys mentions dragons in the East very casual to Tyrion. No need to speak about a little girl. How should he draw the conclusion that there she Arya?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmmm... Polliver who in Harrenhal still took her for a boy had no problem identifying her as "a bit broken in little chicken".

The Hound taking out three of the King's men is business as usual, but a little girl killing two of them might be worth a message to King's Landing...

Yeah and the farmer and his daughter don't seem a bit surprised she is a girl.

Seems even the BwB , before they knew who she was, knew she was a girl.

That ruse was up , of course, in season 2, but it was easy for Gendry to figure out, and Tywin didn't bat an eyelash.

Even Polliver's men did not show any confusion about her being a girl.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He did? Don't remember that scene. IMHO just another F-up of the show writers. Doesn't make any sense to me not revealing Arya to Tywin.

Yeah just watched the scene again , it's at the sea front of KL, LF just flat tells Sansa he has seen her sister, oddly Sansa does not ask where.

That LF would keep it a secret , for his own purposes, fit the character.

That Varys would keep Aray's whereabouts a secret also fits the character.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

. In s3e01, he tells Sansa that he's met Arya.

LF is lying to try and get Sansa's trust. Its supposed to be a joke. LF is lying about meeting Arya when in fact he did see her and didnt recognize her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LF is lying to try and get Sansa's trust. Its supposed to be a joke. LF is lying about meeting Arya when in fact he did see her and didnt recognize her.

Even Arya herself knows that LF will recognize her at once. Hence the horrified look on her face when Lord Petyr Baelish is announced. You can see that Tywin is irritated by Baelishs permanent interest for his cupbearer, but he may know that LF is going after little girls.

Edited for addition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even Arya herself knows that LF will recognize her at once. Hence the horrified look on her face when Lord Petyr Baelish is announced. You can see that Tywin is irritated by Baelishs permanent interest for his cupbearer, but he may know that LF is going after little girls.

Edited for addition.

Arya thinks moss grows on the north side of trees and is responsible for her and Gendry getting lost in the Riverlands. Arya is simply wrong in this case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmmm... Polliver who in Harrenhal still took her for a boy had no problem identifying her as "a bit broken in little chicken".

The Hound taking out three of the King's men is business as usual, but a little girl killing two of them might be worth a message to King's Landing...

This. Why would Varys not know or think it somewhat significant that in this same Inn where we presume he got the spy info from - this unnamed, unmentioned kid (doesn't matter whether boy or girl) kills two grown men who are sworn to the crown and is in the company of the Hound?

Either they're just leaving these omissions as plot holes because it's irrelevant to the show's story line or they're purposely leaving out mention of her by Varys for another reason we do not know. I tend to think it was just lack of needing Arya in the storyline for King's Landing because she's leaving soon for Braavos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as I know there is only a few people in Westeros at this point who even know Arya is still alive. Apart from the Brotherhood without Banners and Gendry, there is the possibility that Littlefinger recognized her serving on tywin lannister (I believe he did) but he is hardly likely to share that information with Varys who is one of his most serious competitors in the Game. Arya slipped through the net of even Varys and his little birds because she is quite similar to them really, she can hide in the shadows and take on different identities easily, because people always underestimate her. Even though this isn't elaborated on as much as the books where she already has about 5-6 aliases!


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Am I the only one that found it kinda odd for Varys to tell the small council that the Hound has been seen, but he does not tell them that Arya is with him. If Varys knows what happened in the bar down to the "fuck the king" line, would he have known that Arya is with him? and if so why not tell?

I'll jump on the side of this debate that thinks it's odd Varys knew such detail of Sandor's location and what he's been doing but makes no mention of a traveling companion with him who seems out of place whether it's a boy or a girl? Why would The Hound bother to have a kid along with him who may or may not appear as a prisoner?

Why would Varys not know or think it somewhat significant that in this same Inn where we presume he got the spy info from - this unnamed, unmentioned kid (doesn't matter whether boy or girl) kills two grown men who are sworn to the crown and is in the company of the Hound?

Varys would not know it was her if the witnesses did not know it was her.

What he would hear is "The Hound came into some inn with some peasant girl; a fight broke out between him and some of his brother's men, and 5 of his brother's men were killed. The conversation went something like "chickens... something something ... fuck the king."

If Varys has very good information, he may have heard that this girl may once have been one of the Brotherhood Without Banners. If varys' sources had heard the Hound had been captured by the BWB (which they might have), they may think that's where he got himself some girl who now travels with him. Or they may think the Hound has actually joined the BWB. In either case, if they know the girl killed 1 or 2 men in that fight, then her having BWB explains it better than it being Arya Stark.

Anyone could recognize the Hound - a huge man with a burned face and a bad temper. I figure one reason why the Hound was able to identify Arya when she was with the BWB was that they had been travelling together for months as Ned and his retinue journeyed to King's Landing. Littlefinger probably met her all of one time, and Tywin never. (Even Polliver didn't know it was Arya, just some insolent prisoner girl from Harrenhal.)

Varys knew Arya escaped - he tells Ned in S1 that he knew she escaped but that he did not know where. There's only way I can think of that Varys would know Arya even escaped King's Landing: Varys was the one who arranged Gendry be given to Yoren of the Night's Watch, and if he watched them leave King's Landing, he might have seen Arya go with them. But that is speculation, as every actual thing he's said about her indicates he has no idea where she's gone or if she's even still alive. (And remember that people really were intensely looking for her.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LF did not recognize Arya at Harrenhal.

What evidence do we have of that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone could recognize the Hound - a huge man with a burned face and a bad temper. I figure one reason why the Hound was able to identify Arya when she was with the BWB was that they had been travelling together for months as Ned and his retinue journeyed to King's Landing. Littlefinger probably met her all of one time, and Tywin never. (Even Polliver didn't know it was Arya, just some insolent prisoner girl from Harrenhal.)

Never knew how long the Starks were all together in KL, seems like it must have been a few months or more.

So the Hound would of had both the Stark girls pointed out to him.

In fact all the high born at KL would have known who they were, especially people like the Kings Guard.

(I am not saying the rank and file Gold Cloaks would.)

So Sandor would have known her dead off.

One can't be shown all the day to day details of life at the court, who would want to even read it?

Have to fill in those details for yourself.

Varys has all kinds of mysterious reasons for hiding things, so it's no surpise.

I am guessing that since all the BwD knew that the info about Arya could have been culled from there, before any tavern fight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not only the BwB. What about Gendry and Melisandre? So add team Dragonstone. Then there is this Hot Pie baking wolf bread at the crossroad's inn - you think he will keep the secret? Half the realm knows that Arya is travelling the Riverlands. Varys should have found out.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Varys would not know it was her if the witnesses did not know it was her.

What he would hear is "The Hound came into some inn with some peasant girl; a fight broke out between him and some of his brother's men, and 5 of his brother's men were killed. The conversation went something like "chickens... something something ... fuck the king."

If Varys has very good information, he may have heard that this girl may once have been one of the Brotherhood Without Banners. If varys' sources had heard the Hound had been captured by the BWB (which they might have), they may think that's where he got himself some girl who now travels with him. Or they may think the Hound has actually joined the BWB. In either case, if they know the girl killed 1 or 2 men in that fight, then her having BWB explains it better than it being Arya Stark.

Anyone could recognize the Hound - a huge man with a burned face and a bad temper. I figure one reason why the Hound was able to identify Arya when she was with the BWB was that they had been travelling together for months as Ned and his retinue journeyed to King's Landing. Littlefinger probably met her all of one time, and Tywin never. (Even Polliver didn't know it was Arya, just some insolent prisoner girl from Harrenhal.)

Varys knew Arya escaped - he tells Ned in S1 that he knew she escaped but that he did not know where. There's only way I can think of that Varys would know Arya even escaped King's Landing: Varys was the one who arranged Gendry be given to Yoren of the Night's Watch, and if he watched them leave King's Landing, he might have seen Arya go with them. But that is speculation, as every actual thing he's said about her indicates he has no idea where she's gone or if she's even still alive. (And remember that people really were intensely looking for her.)

I never argued that they witnesses / spies would know it was Arya. My argument is that something would have been mentioned (one would think) if their job is to report unusual activity or if important persons from King's Landing are recognized such at the Hound who has been reported as a deserter from the king's immediate defense in Blackwater. I'm sure Varys has had spies tailing Sandor Clegane for quite awhile or at least looking for him. The scene at the Inn was pretty significant - a whole room full of Lannister / Crown supporters were killed and the Hound wad directly involved. It seems odd that his accomplice, would not be mentioned.

As for Varys knowing Arya escaped:

Varys knew Arya escaped the Red Keep, and that's what he told Ned Stark. He did not know for certain that she escaped King's Landing - or if he did, it was never said in the books that we know of or on the show.

I thought it was Ned Stark who arranged for Gendry to go with Yoren and the Night's Watch?

Regardless, Yoren got ahold of Arya only because Ned Stark saw her standing on the statue of Balor at the last minute before his execution and yelled "Balor" to Yoren. Unless Varys and his spies saw that interaction or Yoren taking Arya (unlikely in the mob and confusion of the chaos at that moment) then there's not much chance she was seen leaving KL with Yoren and the Night's Watch recruits. Besides, the proof there is that when the King's Men came and confronted Yoren - they were looking for Gendry, not Arya despite her fear they were there for her. So Varys clearly didn't know Arya went with Yoren.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never argued that they witnesses / spies would know it was Arya. My argument is that something would have been mentioned (one would think) if their job is to report unusual activity or if important persons from King's Landing are recognized such at the Hound who has been reported as a deserter from the king's immediate defense in Blackwater. I'm sure Varys has had spies tailing Sandor Clegane for quite awhile or at least looking for him. The scene at the Inn was pretty significant - a whole room full of Lannister / Crown supporters were killed and the Hound wad directly involved. It seems odd that his accomplice, would not be mentioned.

"...something would have been mentioned"... are you talking about Varys?

As we know future events, which I think will play out on the show, Varys seems to owe nothing to the crown. When he is instrumental to helping Tyrion escape and then disappears himself , shows he is being devious.

So it is not in the least odd Varys would not mention Arya, Varys has his own agenda.

As for Varys knowing Arya escaped:

Varys knew Arya escaped the Red Keep, and that's what he told Ned Stark. He did not know for certain that she escaped King's Landing - or if he did, it was never said in the books that we know of or on the show.

I thought it was Ned Stark who arranged for Gendry to go with Yoren and the Night's Watch?

Regardless, Yoren got ahold of Arya only because Ned Stark saw her standing on the statue of Balor at the last minute before his execution and yelled "Balor" to Yoren. Unless Varys and his spies saw that interaction or Yoren taking Arya (unlikely in the mob and confusion of the chaos at that moment) then there's not much chance she was seen leaving KL with Yoren and the Night's Watch recruits. Besides, the proof there is that when the King's Men came and confronted Yoren - they were looking for Gendry, not Arya despite her fear they were there for her. So Varys clearly didn't know Arya went with Yoren.

The 'royal decree' that went out to find Gendry was top most on those afraid of Robert's bastards (tho that was mean spirited since they lawfully posed no threat to the throne, but considering who did it...). So Arya was way down on the list at that time. In the books , I can't remember for sure, KL only takes note of her absence after some time, and then I don't think anyone was even sent looking for her, keep saying she was probably dead.

Even in the books I never knew how Vary's 'little bird' network worked , in KL maybe , but out the realm it would really have to be the buying of information. What ever, if they could track Sandor they would have known it was Arya the inference was clear.

I don't understand the idea that Varys is compelled to be truthful to the crown?

(I don't think this scene is in the books, would think the crown would like to punish the Hound, but if he's wandering around , the hell with him.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My argument is that something would have been mentioned (one would think) if their job is to report unusual activity or if important persons from King's Landing are recognized such at the Hound who has been reported as a deserter from the king's immediate defense in Blackwater. I'm sure Varys has had spies tailing Sandor Clegane for quite awhile or at least looking for him.

I thought it was Ned Stark who arranged for Gendry to go with Yoren and the Night's Watch?

While reports from a battlefront are important, finding anyone specific wandering alone in a war zone - much less trailing them and engaging in continuous observation - would be exceedingly difficult.

For example, the Iron Throne did make quite a lot of effort to find Jaime Lannister after learning of his escape, but never actually found him. Roose Bolton's men found him first, but those were dedicated trackers, a well-armed group. Could just as easily have been Karstark men, or Robb's other men, or the BWB, or soldiers from the Lannuister side, or bandits. A "little bird" would not fare well roaming around asking questions when it's just a coin flip whether anyone you meet out there might try to kill you. Point is: Varys might be listening for reports of interest, but nobody's going to follow the Hound unless they mean to kill or capture him (as the BWB did). Now that he has heard, he may stand a better chance of tracking him from the inn, but the question remains who would seek after the Hound that does not also fear being killed by the Hound (or someone else) ? As such, the report would be from someone (like the innkeep) who is not likely to know who the girl was, only that she arrived with the Hound before all hell broke loose. Varys may indeed be holding back more information than he actually knows, but I do not think there would be much to withhold in the first place.

On the other matter, it was Ned who knew Gendry was of interest, but Varys had to be the one who arranged his sudden trip with Yoren. Nobody was killing Robert's bastards until after Ned had been captured, and Varys also knew who Gendry was.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will need to check my documents, but I am sure the theatre "motif" I have been documenting for the past two years definitely "connects" Arya and Varys. As a matter of fact, I recall writwiing two separate compositions, one on Arya and another on Varys, and their narratives shared language relative to the performing arts. If Martin intends to link Varys, Arya, mummery, and banking together, he has certainly already "set the stage" with foreshadowing.



Regardless, Martin cleverly insinuates other possibilities - so readers cannot feel confident in their understanding of Martin. The tricksy author keeps his audience guessing - and that is his genius.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's easy to think of a number of reasons why Petyr wouldn't tell anyone about Arya.


- He's pissed off at how Cersei had his guards put a knife to his throat and ordered him to find her. We know how Petyr holds a grudge.


- He'd gain nothing except a grudging thanks from Lord Tywin if he turned her in then and there. At the time LF was setting up the deal with the Tyrells which would earn him much greater rewards. Why not hold onto the information until it was of value? He may even have thought that Tywin already knew who his cupbearer was and is running his own Game.


- If captured, Arya might have been sent to Kings Landing to be held along with her sister. It's in LF's interest to keep Sansa isolated so she'll look to Uncle Petyr for support.



As for Varys, I still think he just didn't know. Remember that he's got to filter a vast amount of information, much of it second or third hand and unreliable (we see that in the books when he reports Renly's death). And things were pretty confused in that fight, especially if you were running for your life and then keeping your head down until everyone had left. I'm not surprised all the focus was on Sandor; I doubt the witnesses even saw Arya kill anyone as they fled upstairs long before she got into the affray. Maybe they heard the "can you walk, boy" speech, but they wouldn't have understood it. So all they knew is that Sandor walked into the inn with a little girl he was using as a whore, got into an argument with Lannister soldiers, committed an act of lèse-majesté, brutally killed five men, stole a white horse and ate every fucking chicken in the room. Varys never mentions the girl to the Council because it's an irrelevant detail (and no, "fuck the King" is not irrelevant to a kingdom that's still in rebellion, despite Lannister propaganda).


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...