Braavos: More Equal then Westeros?

[Fat Trell]

Based upon rape? That sounds a little bit of an over statement. To say that a society is based upon rape. I don't even know how that could work. But I suppose you could easily say that of the rest of westeros or even our own society if you believe the 33% of college students are victims of rape while studying. Even 50% I've read. But anyway in the hill clans at least everyone is near enough politically equal. Everyone regardless of age or gender gets to have a say in the decisions of the tribe. You could say it's more democratic than our own society in that regard. The only higher station someone can achieve is through merit. Not through birth right. Nobody owns anyone else (within the group) nor are they obliged to give others their labour. If you're looking for equality the Hill tribes win in my book. It's just a shame they have no industry to speak of forcing them into a particularly brutal lifestyle.

I'm interested to hear your definition of a society based on rape and why you think that ANY place in Westeros or Essos would be significantly better. Or would not fit your definition of a society based on rape.

Wildling culture is centered around stealing women. Stealing women to have sex with them without asking their consent. That is a society based upon rape.

The Hill Tribes also steal women. As well as being seemingly dependent upon robbing passersby. That is a culture based not solely around rape but also murder and theft.

[Lord Thornhart]

Beyond the Wall = Culture based on rape

Essos = Culture based on slavery

Westeros = Culture based on humans

GRRM = Eurocentric

[Fantasy Character]

Isn't there something about having the blood of old Valeria as a requirement for standing for election in the free cities?

As for women surely Dorne should be a prime contender. But also what about the wildlings and the hill tribesman of the vale? Chella daughter of..... I forget was chief of the..... black ears (iirc). When we first meet them in the book Tyrion is aghast that all of the tribe get to have a say in the tribes decisions, "even the women!". Succession is also based on merit from what I gather. With the burned men deciding succession on who can achieve the greatest self mutilation.

For me I think the hill tribesmen definitely deserve to be in for a shout of most equal society. Apologies if I've messed up the names of the clans.

The original poster mentioned social and political equality. If I were to take a stab at interpreting it for the mountain tribes:

They're probably more equal in terms of vote because they are a small tribe and all of them know one another. They'll clearly have leaders and people whose word carries more weight, but it's not like they have such a large population they must set up a poll system, a census, a special voting day, and so on.

We know the Triarchs of Volantis are voted for by freeborn landholders, but not by those without land or slaves, so it's not quite as nice.

In terms of wealth in the Hill Tribes, there's probably less disparity because let's face it, they don't have much. When resources are so scarce and the tribe small, you don't have as separated gender roles, because you can't afford to cloister the women and have them focus on learning to curtsy a la Cersei's pet peeve, instead of arming them to fight and teaching them to hunt/gather/work for food.

So in terms of social and political equality amongst themselves, I do think some Hill Tribes are definitely ahead of the main society of Westeros. I'd still prefer to live somewhere with plumbing and steady access to food, though. I hear the oranges in Dorne taste nice...

Edit: "Ahead" may be the wrong word choice, since the main society of Westeros is further along in terms of technology, and their societal customs arguably developed because of greater population density and scarcity of land/property.

[Kasporio]

Iron Bank is the equivalent of the mob. Simple.

The Iron bank funds wars and rebellions, imposes loans at usurious prices. Its probably a allusion to JP Morgan, Rothschild, and others all powerful banks nowaday.

The IB is against slavery? Fair enough. A slave dont spends money, since he earn none, so he cant asks for a credit.

[Banner Without Brothers]

Wildling culture is centered around stealing women. Stealing women to have sex with them without asking their consent. That is a society based upon rape.

The Hill Tribes also steal women. As well as being seemingly dependent upon robbing passersby. That is a culture based not solely around rape but also murder and theft.

And this makes them more based on rape how? Are arranged marriages less rape? Think of Tyrion and Sansa. The prospect of Arya and any Lord especially the Frey marriage that Rob agreed to. All women are forced into sexual relationships against their will. They are merely assets to their families to cement alliances. Certainly if you are just talking about Craster's little group then yes that is an entire culture built around rape. But when Osha discusses her past relationships, she states that she was very much in love and very happy with the man she was with before he died. She then says she chose to go with the group who she came south with. Not abducted but out of fear and desperation. When Ygritte discusses her past relations I don't get the impression that they were different times that she's been raped. Do you?

Yet on the other side of the wall I would say rape is even more common place. Men there are often ordered by Lords to rape peasents. As previously mentioned in the seven kingdoms women are bought and sold as commodities regardless of their wealth or position within society. I've never heard of brothels North of the wall or political marriages. So tell me again why the wildlings are so much worse than the seven Kingdoms in terms of the treatment of women.

Or just drop this incredibly depressing subject before I literally morph into Andrea Dworkin.

Beyond the Wall = Culture based on rape

Essos = Culture based on slavery

Westeros = Culture based on humans

GRRM = Eurocentric

Culture based on humans? Whut? Do slaves and women not count as humans? Surely the words you are looking for is economy and serfdom. That would make more sense. And as above unless you are specifically talking about Craster's then you're just plain wrong if you think it's any worse than anywhere else. You also can't put all wildling cultures into one box. They all have different cultures but to my knowledge none of them is primarily based on a culture of rape, which would be a prerequisite for a society to be based on rape. If anything their society is based on equality and meritocracy hence the name free folk.

Finally I'm just gonna drop this in from the site's wiki

"In marriage, the men are expected to be quite forceful with women, going so far as stealing them from their home or clan. The women, in turn, are expected to put up a fight every step of the way.^[1] It is believed that a true man will steal a woman from afar to strengthen the clan. Men must steal daughters, but not wives of other men.

When the red wanderer is within the Moonmaid, it is considered a propitious time for a man to steal a woman.^[7] While it may seem different from the idealized courtly love of Westeros, at its core it establishes a male's strength and determination, as well as a female's independence and ability to defend herself."

I am by no means saying that there is no rape within the free folk or that it is by any means perfect. But I'd say it's a darn sight better than being considered merely a commodity that can be bought and sold.

[boojam]

• For Everyone not in Dorne or on the Iron Throne

• 1st-born son>2nd-born son>3rd-born son>etc.
• 1st-born daughter >2nd-born daughter>3rd born daughter>etc.
• Eldest brother>2nd Eldest brother>3rd Eldest brother>etc..
• Eldest sister>2nd Eldest sister>3rd Eldest sister>etc.

• For Dorne

• 1st-born child>2nd-born child> 3rd-born child>etc.
• Eldest sibling>2nd Eldest sibling>3rd Eldest sibling>etc.

• For the Iron Throne(based upon Targaryen edict following the Dance of Dragons, not confirmed whether this continues under the present Baratheon Dynasty)

• 1st-born son>2nd-born son>3rd-born son>etc.
• Eldest brother>2nd Eldest brother>3rd Eldest brother>etc..
• Sons of 1st-Born Daughter>Sons of 2nd-Born Daughter>Sons of 3rd-Born Daughter>etc..
• Sons of Eldest Sister>Sons of 2nd Eldest Sister>Sons of 3rd Eldest Sister>etc.
• Unknown if more distant males, such as 2nd cousins would come before more directly related females. The word of the law saws they would but logic says otherwise.

Did George write that down somewhere?

[boojam]

I was watching E6 (again) and it struck me that Tycho Nestoris refuses to be called Lord. As a student of history, and of the Ancient and Medieval City States, this interests me. Is this evidence that Braavos is more socially and politically equal then the Seven Kingdoms?

I say this because GOT is an expy of Medieval Europe, and there were several non-feudal/republican societies in existence at the time; the Old Swiss Confederacy, the Maritime Republics of Italy, etc.

I am not sure that's in the books, but does seem to fit with what GRRM has set up in Braavos.

To my mind, I have not found out , in the books, enough information about Braavos figure out just what it is.

Except that it does indeed seem not to be a feudal society like Westeros, which is a decided improvement.

But it does not seem to be a 'class-less' democracy either.

[Fat Trell]

And this makes them more based on rape how? Are arranged marriages less rape? Think of Tyrion and Sansa. The prospect of Arya and any Lord especially the Frey marriage that Rob agreed to. All women are forced into sexual relationships against their will. They are merely assets to their families to cement alliances. Certainly if you are just talking about Craster's little group then yes that is an entire culture built around rape. But when Osha discusses her past relationships, she states that she was very much in love and very happy with the man she was with before he died. She then says she chose to go with the group who she came south with. Not abducted but out of fear and desperation. When Ygritte discusses her past relations I don't get the impression that they were different times that she's been raped. Do you?

Yet on the other side of the wall I would say rape is even more common place. Men there are often ordered by Lords to rape peasents. As previously mentioned in the seven kingdoms women are bought and sold as commodities regardless of their wealth or position within society. I've never heard of brothels North of the wall or political marriages. So tell me again why the wildlings are so much worse than the seven Kingdoms in terms of the treatment of

How many cases of truly forced weddings do we have?

Arranged is not forced. Women being commodities is a gross oversimplification. These are are daughters and sisters and nieces, most people do not want to see their daughters and sisters and nieces raped. Or wed to brutal people.

Women do not have to say their vows on their wedding day. If they do not say them, they cannot be wed. That is a recourse wildlings do not offer.

Do you not see how a society where all, not <1% of the population's, weddings involve the forcible abduction and penetration of women is based upon rape? You find this less appalling than a society where less than 1% of women have the possibility, the mere possibility, of being forcibly sold into an unwanted marriage with a brutal man?

Brothels are a business. Women sell sex. Selling sex is not rape.

[Banner Without Brothers]

How many cases of truly forced weddings do we have?

Arranged is not forced. Women being commodities is a gross oversimplification. These are are daughters and sisters and nieces, most people do not want to see their daughters and sisters and nieces raped. Or wed to brutal people.

Women do not have to say their vows on their wedding day. If they do not say them, they cannot be wed. That is a recourse wildlings do not offer.

Do you not see how a society where all, not <1% of the population's, weddings involve the forcible abduction and penetration of women is based upon rape? You find this less appalling than a society where less than 1% of women have the possibility, the mere possibility, of being forcibly sold into an unwanted marriage with a brutal man?

Brothels are a business. Women sell sex. Selling sex is not rape.

All the weddings are forced some become good relationships some don't. Are you seriously saying you think women in the seven kingdoms have a choice? Just look at the relationship between Black Fish and Hoster Tully. They didn't speak for 20 years or something after his brother turned down a marriage. What do you think it would have been like if one of his daughters had said no? No coercion there I suppose?

You haven't answered any of my questions. How do you account for the two first hand accounts of wildling women? Osha and Ygritte. Do they once complain or even suggest that their previous relationships have started with rape?

No?

So where are you getting your 1% statistics from. Old Nan?

[Fat Trell]

All the weddings are forced some become good relationships some don't. Are you seriously saying you think women in the seven kingdoms have a choice? Just look at the relationship between Black Fish and Hoster Tully. They didn't speak for 20 years or something after his brother turned down a marriage. What do you think it would have been like if one of his daughters had said no? No coercion there I suppose?

You haven't answered any of my questions. How do you account for the two first hand accounts of wildling women? Osha and Ygritte. Do they once complain or even suggest that their previous relationships have started with rape?

No?

So where are you getting your 1% statistics from. Old Nan?

No, they are not. Doran does not force Arianne to marry, while this itself is a farce, it was devised specifically as a way to avoid suspicion. Logically we can infer this isn't unusual. Arranged is not forced.

Osha and Ygritte are rather lucky then. What part of forcibly abducting women to have sex doesn't imply rape to you? Do you understand rape as a concept? Forcible as a term?

No what? Use your words pal.

Nobles make up less than 1% of Westoros' population. Keep up.

[King Zee]

As far as I am aware , the ASOIAF Wilding culture of abduction marriages is based on the implication that the woman will assist in her own abduction by a guy she fancies.

This is different from the real world matter of bride kidnappings

[Bear Island]

Can't stand that gender stuff anymore. Trianna was returned 4 times as Triarch of Volantis, so what? We don't know of any law forbidding women to run for Sealord of Braavos. Since the use of knives seems to be normal in the chosing process, Arya might stand a fair chance of being elected!

Maybe you can't stand it, but the whole world has a massive issue with rape culture. So what if a female can be a Triarch, or even a queen? The point is that even women with free agency are constantly overlooked, ridiculed and threatened. Just a few examples:

Cersei: Queen regent of the seven kingdoms. Her thoughts and ideas (although they're usually terrible) are constantly dismissed and undermined by the men around her in small council, especially by her own father. She gets people to do her bidding by sexually manipulating them and has nothing else to offer, even with the privilege the wealth of Casterly Rock can provide. Her brother is a dwarf and constantly ridiculed, yet has held two actual positions of note (master of coin and hand of the king) without having to sleep around to get them.

Arianna: Older than her brother Quentyn and actually ahead of him in the line of succession. Overlooked by her father, who wants her younger brother to rule Dorne and has wanted so since she was a child. Also uses her sexuality to get what she wants out of the men around her. When she is proactive and plans to take power, she is undermined by her own friends and father.

The Sand Snakes: Some of the most highly-educated and free women in the world, they are imprisoned by their uncle for wanting to avenge their father's death, including the girls who are too little to do anything to actually organise said revenge.

Brienne: As skilled with a blade as any man, is tormented by men and has had many near misses with rape. Mentions having to basically sleep with one eye open at all times because of rapists.

Dany: Actually takes cities by force the way male conquerors of the past have, but the only way she felt able to stop the killing of her people was by giving herself over in marriage. She was not loved or respected enough or powerful enough to work out a solution to the problem on her own, even though she was advised not to marry.

Women in that world are constantly thwarted, threatened, hurt and used. That's just how it is. I personally cannot take gender out of the equation when I look at the issue of equality in asoiaf. It's not the most important issue, or the biggest, but it's still very much there. As a woman, I would not want to live anywhere in that world. Those are just my feelings on the matter. Westeros isn't a society built upon rape per se (imo), but it's an EXTREMELY patriarchal society where men and women are not equal even when a woman is a ruler with power, and rape is fact of life there. All most women have to offer is their bodies, no matter how high born they are, which is always true in aggressively patriarchal societies.

Whenever women are seen as not having agency over their lives or bodies, rape abounds.

[Ser Lepus]

Braavos hasn't a division between nobles and commoners, and doesn't have slaves. All Braavosi are citizens (however, they probably have non-citizen foreign residents with less rights than "true" Braavosi).

What they do have is a division by wealth. We don't know how oppresed are the poor people, or if they are oppresed at all, and we don't know how easy is to make the jump from poverty to wealth, or if the Oligarchy would allow a new rich to join them.

We also don't know how they choose their rulers. We know that the Sealord rules for life, that he has a lot of power (everybody speaks as if the Sealord were the only relevant politician in Braavos) and that there are elections when the Sealord dies. However, it seems that people kill each other on the streets during those elections, and that the city nearly goes into civil war every time they have to choose a new Sealord.

Also, we don't know if all citizens have the right to vote, or only the rich ones (which was very common in our own world), if they make direct elections or have some kind of Parlament that votes the Sealord. And if that Parlament exists, we don't know if all the votes count the same for the purpose of choosing representatives (in our own world it was quite usual to have a fixed number of seats in the Assembly for each social class or even to have separate Assemblies for different social classes, so the votes of the rich people were worth more).

And most important of all, we don't know if anybody can be Sealord or if he has to belong to certain families or have a certain level of wealth.

[Fat Trell]

Maybe you can't stand it, but the whole world has a massive issue with rape culture. So what if a female can be a Triarch, or even a queen? The point is that even women with free agency are constantly overlooked, ridiculed and threatened. Just a few examples:

Cersei: Queen regent of the seven kingdoms. Her thoughts and ideas (although they're usually terrible) are constantly dismissed and undermined by the men around her in small council, especially by her own father. She gets people to do her bidding by sexually manipulating them and has nothing else to offer, even with the privilege the wealth of Casterly Rock can provide. Her brother is a dwarf and constantly ridiculed, yet has held two actual positions of note (master of coin and hand of the king) without having to sleep around to get them.

Arianna: Older than her brother Quentyn and actually ahead of him in the line of succession. Overlooked by her father, who wants her younger brother to rule Dorne and has wanted so since she was a child. Also uses her sexuality to get what she wants out of the men around her. When she is proactive and plans to take power, she is undermined by her own friends and father.

The Sand Snakes: Some of the most highly-educated and free women in the world, they are imprisoned by their uncle for wanting to avenge their father's death, including the girls who are too little to do anything to actually organise said revenge.

Brienne: As skilled with a blade as any man, is tormented by men and has had many near misses with rape. Mentions having to basically sleep with one eye open at all times because of rapists.

Dany: Actually takes cities by force the way male conquerors of the past have, but the only way she felt able to stop the killing of her people was by giving herself over in marriage. She was not loved or respected enough or powerful enough to work out a solution to the problem on her own, even though she was advised not to marry.

Women in that world are constantly thwarted, threatened, hurt and used. That's just how it is. I personally cannot take gender out of the equation when I look at the issue of equality in asoiaf. It's not the most important issue, or the biggest, but it's still very much there. As a woman, I would not want to live anywhere in that world. Those are just my feelings on the matter. Westeros isn't a society built upon rape per se (imo), but it's an EXTREMELY patriarchal society where men and women are not equal even when a woman is a ruler with power, and rape is fact of life there. All most women have to offer is their bodies, no matter how high born they are, which is always true in aggressively patriarchal societies.

Whenever women are seen as not having agency over their lives or bodies, rape abounds.

Most people disagree with Cersei because Cersei isn't a good politician or ruler.

Arianne is not being plotted against by her father. That is a misconception on her part.

The Sand Snakes aren't implied to be well educated. They're imprisoned because they're spreading dissent throughout Dorne. The younger ones are simply sent to the Water Gardens. They're not the only people imprisoned for this either.

I agree with the broad strokes of your post but you're mistaken on a few points here.

[boojam]

Beyond the Wall = Culture based on rape

Essos = Culture based on slavery

Westeros = Culture based on humans

GRRM = Eurocentric

GRRM = Eurocentric, that's true, but in this Earth World history Eurocentric had both slavery and rape.

Not all of Essos is slavery.

Westeros is based of European Feudalism which means 98% of the people living in it had totally crappy lives!

[boojam]

Maybe you can't stand it, but the whole world has a massive issue with rape culture. So what if a female can be a Triarch, or even a queen? The point is that even women with free agency are constantly overlooked, ridiculed and threatened. Just a few examples:

Cersei: Queen regent of the seven kingdoms. Her thoughts and ideas (although they're usually terrible) are constantly dismissed and undermined by the men around her in small council, especially by her own father. She gets people to do her bidding by sexually manipulating them and has nothing else to offer, even with the privilege the wealth of Casterly Rock can provide. Her brother is a dwarf and constantly ridiculed, yet has held two actual positions of note (master of coin and hand of the king) without having to sleep around to get them.

Arianna: Older than her brother Quentyn and actually ahead of him in the line of succession. Overlooked by her father, who wants her younger brother to rule Dorne and has wanted so since she was a child. Also uses her sexuality to get what she wants out of the men around her. When she is proactive and plans to take power, she is undermined by her own friends and father.

The Sand Snakes: Some of the most highly-educated and free women in the world, they are imprisoned by their uncle for wanting to avenge their father's death, including the girls who are too little to do anything to actually organise said revenge.

Brienne: As skilled with a blade as any man, is tormented by men and has had many near misses with rape. Mentions having to basically sleep with one eye open at all times because of rapists.

Dany: Actually takes cities by force the way male conquerors of the past have, but the only way she felt able to stop the killing of her people was by giving herself over in marriage. She was not loved or respected enough or powerful enough to work out a solution to the problem on her own, even though she was advised not to marry.

Women in that world are constantly thwarted, threatened, hurt and used. That's just how it is. I personally cannot take gender out of the equation when I look at the issue of equality in asoiaf. It's not the most important issue, or the biggest, but it's still very much there. As a woman, I would not want to live anywhere in that world. Those are just my feelings on the matter. Westeros isn't a society built upon rape per se (imo), but it's an EXTREMELY patriarchal society where men and women are not equal even when a woman is a ruler with power, and rape is fact of life there. All most women have to offer is their bodies, no matter how high born they are, which is always true in aggressively patriarchal societies.

Whenever women are seen as not having agency over their lives or bodies, rape abounds.

You do realize that GRRM based the books on 15th century Feudalism society, and what you describe above is exactly the way it was.

George is not using 20 or 21st century sensibilities in his story setting.

[Fat Trell]

Did George write that down somewhere?

Its stated in the text. Different parts coming from different points.

[boojam]

Its stated in the text. Different parts coming from different points.

Where in GRRM's books?

Your answer is too vague.

[Fat Trell]

Where in GRRM's books?

Your answer is too vague.

Alys Karstark explains succession in aDwD. Arianne does so in Feast. We are told the IT rules directly by Martin I believe. Regardless, its rules on succession are commented upon numerous times.

[boojam]

Alys Karstark explains succession in aDwD. Arianne does so in Feast. We are told the IT rules directly by Martin I believe. Regardless, its rules on succession are commented upon numerous times.

"A number of times..." that's not specific enough.