Jump to content

What is Valyrian Steel


Recommended Posts

Edit: Sorry, I started my post, forgot about it, came back and hit Post a few hours later, and didn't realize almost everything I had to say had already been covered... So I'm replacing it with a different post.

So why was it rare?

I think it's worth comparing with Damascus steel, the real-world parallel. We don't actually know exactly how Damascus steel was made, but we have reconstructed a lot. We also have to consider what GRRM was likely to know.

The basic crucible steel idea spread from south India all over Asia, although not to the West, which was still using bloomery processes throughout the medieval era. So, even Chinese steel would have been a big deal in Europe. However, wootz steel (from which Damascus steel blades were made) was a big deal even in Asia.

While the specific iron ore (the specific impurities that survive the smelting process) can make a huge difference in European-style low-carbon bloomery steel, it's generally not as important in high-carbon crucible steel. So, the iron probably has nothing to do with Valyrian steel.

The key is probably the specific plant matter that went into it. We know the exact species of some of the plants, because they were recorded before the process was lost, and those plants are available over a wide range of India and Sri Lanka. However, there were other "secret" plant ingredients, which allegedly included the roots of a plant that grew only in a very small area, and whose identity was known only to a small number of people.

I believe the secret root idea has been discredited, but it's widely known, so I suspect that's what GRRM was thinking in terms of.

So, his magic ingredient isn't going to be something super-hard or super-strong, like obsidian or meteorite iron; it's going to be some carbon-bearing material used in small quantities that very few people know about, and that wouldn't be easy to gather even if you did know about it.

And sure, it could be something to do with dragons; at any rate, we know it's something magical, unlike the real-world case.

Meanwhile, making Damascus steel bars from wootz steel ingots is another special technique that was lost. The hard-to-reconstruct part probably has to do with the cooling process, but whatever it is, it's the kind of thing that would have taken generations of trial and error, and a lot of luck, to figure out, and just as much time and luck for someone to reverse engineer without modern techniques. Assuming the same is true for Valyrian steel (probably not exactly the same secret step, because it's described as working the magic, rather than annealing or any other part of the real-world process, but the basic idea that there is an equivalently hard-to-discover step), that could explain why only the smiths of Qohor still know how to forge Valyrian steel blades.

(I do still want to know how they keep that knowledge alive with no new Valyrian steel to work on, as I mentioned in a similar thread, but I'll give that a pass this time.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Edit: As with the previous post, replacing this one with something more relevant.

The ripples almost certainly aren't two separate materials folded together at a macroscopic scale; any sword like that would shatter on the first swing.

Take a look at Damascus steel, which has similar patterns that are even more visible, even without trying to dye it:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2c/Watered_pattern_on_sword_blade1.Iran.JPG

The surface material in the peaks and troughs are macroscopically identical--the same iron carbides with the same tiny proportion of vanadium carbides and other impurities. It's the microscopic crystalline structure that causes it to form into ripples. As far as I know, we don't actually know exactly why this happens, but there's probably a chaotic outward flow of carbides during the annealing process, possibly related in some way I don't understand to the carbon nanotubes that form part of the structure. The fact that the hardest carbides flow to the outside also explains why the swords can hold such a good edge.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While other posters in this thread know more about metallurgy, I remember reading in one of my old textbooks that hardness and brittleness are closely related. In other words, the harder the metal, the more brittle it is.

As Donal Noye said, "Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll breaks before he bends."

I'm going to posit a wild theory. Valyrian "Steel" isn't steel at all - it's an aluminum alloy. It's lighter than steel and when properly alloyed stronger and more flexible.

If we want compare our world to Westeros, Napoleon ate with plates and utensils made of Aluminum while other guests had to "make do" with gold. Even as late as the 19th century, Aluminum was difficult to refine.

I know it's kind of out there, but I thought it might be fun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's spelled out directly in the book. Quality sword + human sacrifice = Valyrian Steel. Might be that Dragons are not needed for the process at all.






Darkness lay over the world and a hero, Azor Ahai, was chosen to fight against it. To fight the darkness, Azor Ahai needed to forge a hero's sword. He labored for thirty days and thirty nights until it was done. However, when he went to temper it in water, the sword broke. He was not one to give up easily, so he started over. The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart, but once more the steel shattered. The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew before hand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Everyone's answer is going to be "magic made it lol so dumb" but in reality Valyrian steel and it's properties are based off the real world Damascus steel from the same medieval period that Westeros setting is inspired from. To this day we don't know how people made that steel and can't recreate it, so a real world non magic method for creating Valyrian steel in Westeros is possible even though no one living in the series knows how.

not to call you out but we can make Damascus steel and also know how they made it it's extremely hard and only one guy(that I know of) recreated it

Source: Viking sword documentary on netflix

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's spelled out directly in the book. Quality sword + human sacrifice = Valyrian Steel. Might be that Dragons are not needed for the process at all.

that equation was used to create Lightbringer, which we know little about. Nobody has claimed Lightbringer was Valyrian or dragonsteel (though it would make some sense, as the others cannot stand against it.)

Anyway we have several references to Valyrian Steel being forged in dragonflame at this point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I figure that the process of making VS probably involved a combination of alloying, magic, and dragonfire. It was a closely guarded secret, known only to a small number of master smiths in Valyria, all of whom perished in the Doom. The secrets of reforging it were disseminated to the Free Cities and are still known, but nobody can make it from scratch anymore.



Regarding the meteorite theory - Dawn is not VS. Its quality is equivalent to VS but it's not the same thing. Also, metal from meteorites would be in extremely short supply, and there are said to be thousands of VS swords in the world.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

I figure that the process of making VS probably involved a combination of alloying, magic, and dragonfire. It was a closely guarded secret, known only to a small number of master smiths in Valyria, all of whom perished in the Doom. The secrets of reforging it were disseminated to the Free Cities and are still known, but nobody can make it from scratch anymore.

But the question is can they not make it from scratch anymore because they lost the knowledge, or because they just don't have dragons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

that equation was used to create Lightbringer, which we know little about. Nobody has claimed Lightbringer was Valyrian or dragonsteel (though it would make some sense, as the others cannot stand against it.)

Anyway we have several references to Valyrian Steel being forged in dragonflame at this point.

But we know that all true magic on Planetos that we have seen is blood magic, if not involving direct human sacrifice then at least the sacrifice of "essence", like Melisandre's shadow babies, and GRRM directly states in his correspondence (which I think was linked above) that magic is a required component of Valyrian Steel... so it needs both (dragon)Fire and (human)Blood, the Targaryen words.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But the question is can they not make it from scratch anymore because they lost the knowledge, or because they just don't have dragons.

They stopped making it after the Doom, even though the Targaryens still had dragons at that point. So the knowledge was lost.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But we know that all true magic on Planetos that we have seen is blood magic, if not involving direct human sacrifice then at least the sacrifice of "essence", like Melisandre's shadow babies, and GRRM directly states in his correspondence (which I think was linked above) that magic is a required component of Valyrian Steel... so it needs both (dragon)Fire and (human)Blood, the Targaryen words.

That's a good point, and it is possible that blood is required to create it. It's equally possible that they sacrifice "essence" or that you make the sacrifice once to learn the spells, and then can hammer out as many swords as you'd like with no further blood sacrifice required. We just don't know. I really don't think it's "spelled out in the books" that human sacrifice is required to make Valyrian Steel.

They stopped making it after the Doom, even though the Targaryens still had dragons at that point. So the knowledge was lost.

I agree it's much more likely that knowledge was lost, because I believe those words are actually used somewhere in the books or a SSM. I still allow for the other possibility. The Targaryens don't seem to have had any smiths on hand that could create the stuff, and I really doubt they would be willing to loan out a dragon to some Qohorick smith so he could produce more. The Targaryens might not have even wanted any more produced. The blades they had were all the more impressive and valuable if no more were being made.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've always suspected it has something to do with dragonbone having a high iron content. Since dragons are magical creatures, it's not a big stretch to say that their bones are magical as well. So you take magical bone-iron (with a high carbon content?), smelt it with dragonflame, add spells and blood, then voilà, Valyrian steel.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

The key is probably the specific plant matter that went into it. We know the exact species of some of the plants, because they were recorded before the process was lost, and those plants are available over a wide range of India and Sri Lanka. However, there were other "secret" plant ingredients, which allegedly included the roots of a plant that grew only in a very small area, and whose identity was known only to a small number of people.

I believe the secret root idea has been discredited, but it's widely known, so I suspect that's what GRRM was thinking in terms of.

So, his magic ingredient isn't going to be something super-hard or super-strong, like obsidian or meteorite iron; it's going to be some carbon-bearing material used in small quantities that very few people know about, and that wouldn't be easy to gather even if you did know about it.

And sure, it could be something to do with dragons; at any rate, we know it's something magical, unlike the real-world case.

Just going to fire a shot in the dark here and say weirwood. I mean, if they have wierwood in the House of the Undying all the way in Qarth, far to the east of even Valyria, then the dragonlords probably wouldn't have a hard time getting some for their forging. It would also help to explain some of the scarcity of VSteel since they would have to import it from thousands of leagues away.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's a good point, and it is possible that blood is required to create it. It's equally possible that they sacrifice "essence" or that you make the sacrifice once to learn the spells, and then can hammer out as many swords as you'd like with no further blood sacrifice required. We just don't know. I really don't think it's "spelled out in the books" that human sacrifice is required to make Valyrian Steel.

I agree it's much more likely that knowledge was lost, because I believe those words are actually used somewhere in the books or a SSM. I still allow for the other possibility. The Targaryens don't seem to have had any smiths on hand that could create the stuff, and I really doubt they would be willing to loan out a dragon to some Qohorick smith so he could produce more. The Targaryens might not have even wanted any more produced. The blades they had were all the more impressive and valuable if no more were being made.

Given how much gold you could get for a VS sword, if any smiths who knew how to make it survived the Doom, they would have immediately traveled to Dragonstone and set up shop there. It's an economic no-brainer, both for the smiths and for the Targaryens who'd be able to collect a nice cut of the revenue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And there is still the argument that some make suggesting that maybe dragonsteel and Valyrian steel are two different things.

Well, the only argument that they are the same thing comes from the conversation between Sam and Jon after Sam talks about a description of the war with the Others wherein the Hero uses his dragonsteel sword against them. Jon guesses that they are the same and Sam replies that that was his first guess, implying that he changed his mind. Remember, the previous war was fought by the Bronze Age First Men, who had no steel, and the text was a "modern" version or translation of a First Men story. And in the story only one dragonsteel sword was mentioned.

For all we know "dragonsteel" was sharpened dragonbone, not inconsistent with a more primitive technology. If the essential nature of dragons is fire their bone could be effective against beings whose nature is, in terms of magic, ice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

not to call you out but we can make Damascus steel and also know how they made it it's extremely hard and only one guy(that I know of) recreated it

Source: Viking sword documentary on netflix

The people who claim to be making Damascus steel are just forging two different grades of steel to get the ripple effect. Real Damascus Steel was laden with carbon nanotubes. that is why it is so strong and sharp. At this point, none of the modern Damascus makers can replicate the nanotube process. It looks pretty but it is not Damascus Steel. Check out the Two Finger Knife company

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's a good point, and it is possible that blood is required to create it. It's equally possible that they sacrifice "essence" or that you make the sacrifice once to learn the spells, and then can hammer out as many swords as you'd like with no further blood sacrifice required. We just don't know. I really don't think it's "spelled out in the books" that human sacrifice is required to make Valyrian Steel.

I agree it's much more likely that knowledge was lost, because I believe those words are actually used somewhere in the books or a SSM. I still allow for the other possibility. The Targaryens don't seem to have had any smiths on hand that could create the stuff, and I really doubt they would be willing to loan out a dragon to some Qohorick smith so he could produce more. The Targaryens might not have even wanted any more produced. The blades they had were all the more impressive and valuable if no more were being made.

I always assumed the reason the Valyrians had such a need for conquest and slaves was to fuel their sorcery, and Valyrian steel would be part of that. If they figured out great acts of sorcery with blood magic, like taming the dragons, surely some of those sorcerers were also interested in metallurgy and blacksmithing and discovered the secret of making the new metal... then guarded it jealously. Just like only a handful of smiths alive can re-forge Valyrian Steel, it might have been only a few smiths back then who knew how to create the stuff in the first place. Think about it - if every weapon in Valyria was made of their famed steel, there would still be tens of thousands such weapons in the hand of their colonies, the Free Cities, which they don't. It must have been more available but still rare and expensive before the Doom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

not to call you out but we can make Damascus steel and also know how they made it it's extremely hard and only one guy(that I know of) recreated it

Source: Viking sword documentary on netflix

We, to this day, have no idea how it was made in medieval times. Scientists have guessed at some of the materials and made attempts at making it using things like nanotechnology. Don't believe everything you see in a documentary without doing a little reading and research,

"The original method of producing Damascus steel is not known. Because of differences in raw materials and manufacturing techniques, modern attempts to duplicate the metal have not been entirely successful. Despite this, several individuals in modern times have claimed that they have rediscovered the methods in which the original Damascus steel was produced.[3][4]"

"High carbon content makes the keen edge and its durability possible; but its presence in the mixture is almost impossible to control. Too little carbon and the resulting stuff is wrought iron, too soft for these purposes; too much and you get cast iron, too brittle. If the process doesn't go right, the steel forms plates of cementite, a phase of iron which is hopelessly fragile. Somehow, Islamic metallurgists were able to control for the inherent fragility and forge the raw material into fighting weapons, an ability that somehow was lost in the mid-18th century."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...