Rethinking Romance: Love Stories of ASOIAF, Part 2

[LongRider]

20 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Eight narrative events take a heroine in a romance novel from encumbered to free. In one or more scenes, romance novels always depict the following: the initial state of society in which heroine and hero must court, the meeting between heroine and hero, the barrier to the union of heroine and hero, the attraction between the heroine and hero, the declaration of love between heroine and hero, the point of ritual death, the recognition by heroine and hero of the means to overcome the barrier, and the betrothal. These elements are essential.

This is very interesting, and when thinking of Sansa and Sandor I can see this pattern emerge.  Also, thinking about other romances I've read or seen in movies, that pattern can be seen as well.  A good example would be Pride and Prejudice. 

With Sansa and Sandor, I would say we've seen, the society, the meeting, the barriers and the attraction.  Sandor gave his declaration of love to Sansa on the night of the Blackwater (I can keep you safe) and Sansa's is beginning to emerge (the unkiss, among others).  Sandor certainly has had a ritual death taking him to the Quiet Isle, would Sansa taking on the Alayne persona be considered a ritual death as well? 

Thanks for posting this Le Cygne, this type of information is very interesting to me.

[Le Cygne]

On 8/10/2018 at 8:28 AM, LongRider said:

This is very interesting, and when thinking of Sansa and Sandor I can see this pattern emerge.  Also, thinking about other romances I've read or seen in movies, that pattern can be seen as well.  A good example would be Pride and Prejudice. 

With Sansa and Sandor, I would say we've seen, the society, the meeting, the barriers and the attraction.  Sandor gave his declaration of love to Sansa on the night of the Blackwater (I can keep you safe) and Sansa's is beginning to emerge (the unkiss, among others).  Sandor certainly has had a ritual death taking him to the Quiet Isle, would Sansa taking on the Alayne persona be considered a ritual death as well? 

Thanks for posting this Le Cygne, this type of information is very interesting to me.

Good points, and definitely!

There's  another book on romance you might find interesting. I recently read Pride and Prejudice: the Story Grid Edition annotated by Shawn Coyne, and he discusses a similar narrative structure that is common to good romances (there's commonality with Sansa and Sandor, too):

• Lovers Meet Scene
• Confession of Love Scene
• First Kiss/Intimate Connection Scene
• Lovers Break Up
• Proof of Love Scene
• The Lovers Reunite Scene

More on the Proof of Love scene: The key component in the Proof of Love scene is that one of the lovers must sacrifice for the other's happiness without hope that the sacrificial act will do them any good whatsoever.

Also there are conventions (distinct add-on elements that give the story context):

• The Rival (without rivals, there is no possibility for crisis)
• Moral Weight (if the lovers cannot elevate themselves morally, they will not be able to find authentic love; that is, they must have a worldview shift that raises their moral fiber)
• Helpers, Hinderers (those who help the two come together, those who work to destroy the match)
• Gender Divide (distinct differences in the ways the two lovers view love must be in play)
• External Need (external pressures to find a mate)
• Forces At Play Beyond the Couple's Control (social convention)
• Forces At Play in the Couple's Control (one or both lovers has to get out of their own way to change their behavior and worldview)
• Rituals (the lovers develop little things they only do with one another)
• Secrets
  • Secrets society keeps from the couple
  • Secrets the couple keeps from society
  • Secrets the couple keeps from one another
  • Secrets one of the couple keeps from himself/herself

Some quotes from the annotations:

These run-ins [they keep running into each other] are very important as setup for Darcy's proposal... Austen needed to make sure the signs of Darcy's fascination were actively on the page...

Their verbal teasing is the stuff of intimate connection, which becomes a ritual between them... These two are not afraid of conflict... in fact, it excites them... Darcy thinks they're doing their usual verbal par and thrust and is enjoying it...

Darcy is hitting the truth, the nerve of her internal problems that are preventing her from seeing that this guy is absolutely the one for her... I could have bullshitted you and given you the standard crap guys tell girls in order to get you to accept me. Instead I told you the truth out of respect....

THIS [the rejection of his proposal] IS DARCY'S ALL IS LOST MOMENT... Austen wants to leave the readers terribly upset by this exchange, but also hopeful that both Darcy and Elizabeth will change and come to realize their roles in keeping themselves apart...

Mr. Darcy's proof of love turns the global story and convinces Elizabeth to devote herself to him without reservation. By the way, Elizabeth proves her love for Darcy in an earlier scene (the confrontation with Lady Catherine)...

Also here's a good quote from the book, the proof of love, he did it for her:

"If you will thank me," he replied, "let it be for yourself alone. That the wish of giving happiness to you might add force to the other inducements which led me on, I shall not attempt to deny. But your family owe me nothing. Much as I respect them, I believe I thought only of you."

Edited April 5, 2019 by Le Cygne

[Le Cygne]

From Beauty and the Beast: Diary of a Film by Jean Cocteau:

I have decided to write a diary of La Belle et la Bête as the work on the film progresses. After a year of preparations and difficulties, the moment has now come to grapple with a dream. Apart from the numerous obstacles which exist in getting a dream onto celluloid, the problem is to make a film within the limits imposed by a period of austerity. But perhaps these limitations may stimulate imagination, which is often lethargic when all means are placed at its disposal.

Everybody knows the story by madame Leprince de Beaumont, a story often attributed to Perrault, because it is found next to "Peau d'Ane" between those bewitching covers of the Bibliothèque Rose.

The postulate of the story requires faith, the faith of childhood. I mean that one must believe implicitly at the very beginning and not question the possibility that the mere picking of a rose might lead a family into adventure, or that a man can be changed into a beast, and vice versa. Such enigmas offend grown-ups who are readily prejudiced, proud of their doubt, armed with derision. But I have the impudence to believe that the cinema which depicts the impossible is apt to carry conviction, in a way, and may be able to put a "singular" occurrence into the plural.

It is up to us (that is, to me and my unit―in fact, one entity) to avoid those impossibilities which are even more of a jolt in the midst of the improbable than in the midst of reality. For fantasy has its own laws which are like those of perspective. You may not bring what is distant into the foreground, or render fuzzily what is near. The vanishing lines are impeccable and the orchestration so delicate that the slightest false note jars. I am not speaking of what I have achieved, but of what I shall attempt within the means at my disposal.

My method is simple: not to aim at poetry. That must come of its own accord. The mere whispered mention of its name frightens it away. I shall try to build a table. It will be up to you then to eat at it, to examine it or to chop it up for firewood.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Le Cygne

[Le Cygne]

From A Natural History of the Romance Novel by Pamela Regis:

The romance novel is old. The form is stable. Since the birth of the novel in English, the romance novel as I have defined it here - the story of the courtship, the betrothal of one or more heroines - has provided a form for novels. What is more, the form has attracted writers of acknowledged genius - Richardson, Austen, Bronte, Trollope, and Forster to name just the ones examined here. Using the eight essential elements of the romance novel form as identified - society defined, the meeting, the barrier, the attraction, the declaration, the point of ritual death, the recognition, and the betrothal - doubled, amplified, diminished, echoed, made as comic or as serious as context required - these and other canonical romance writers have employed this form to free their heroines from the barrier and free them to choose the hero. Joy and happiness, both for the heroine and hero, and for the reader, follow. Trollope, Forster, Richardson, Bronte, and Austen are in the literary canon and on required reading lists; the romance novels they wrote were best sellers in their day.

The romance novel, as we have seen, is a species of comedy with the heroine displacing the hero as the central character. The great societal shifts toward affective individualism, property rights, and companionate marriage, coincide with the rise of the novel in English... The courtship novel, up to the twentieth century, is the story of the heroine's struggle for one or more of these great goals... The heroine's and hero's struggles in each of these novels are not trivial yet the tone in these novels is often lighthearted. When the outcome is freedom and joy, and in the romance novel these are the outcome, the tone can be light, even if the issues are serious.

In the twentieth century the romance novel become the most popular form of the novel in North America. Rather than achieving affective individualism, property rights, and companionate marriage through courtship as the earlier heroines did, the twentieth-century heroine begins the novel with these in place. The book still focuses on her, but the hero steps forward to take an equal place with her. The novel chronicles the heroine's taming of the dangerous hero or her healing of the injured hero, or both. Taming and healing can work the other way as well. Heroines can need taming and healing, too...

In chronicling the courtship through the eight essential elements of the romance novel, the twentieth-century romance focuses on emotion. Literature that focuses on emotion and that ends happily veers towards the sentimental. Romance novels are, therefore, profoundly out of step with the prevailing contemporary high culture simply because of this emotional sensibility. My litany throughout this book has been that, despite their quality, popular romance novels of the twentieth century might appear on the New York Times Best Sellers List, but they are never reviewed in the newspaper itself. Other popular forms  - mystery, science fiction, and horror - are. Romance novels are excluded, I suspect, because of an ignorance of the form itself and of the sensibility - the reliance on emotion - that suffuses the form. Emotion is suspect. Emotion is especially suspect when it is joyful, and every romance novel ends in joy. The practical critics of prevailing high culture ignore romances.

Academic critics, as we have seen, also condemn romances. I have already offered a defense of the romance, but would like to add one more observation here. The story of the courtship and betrothal of one or more heroines is, finally, about freedom and joy. In the twentieth century, for the most part, romances are stories written by woman and read by women. They feature women who have achieved the ends fostered by affective individualism, control over their own property, and companionate marriage. In other words, romance heroines make their own decisions, make their own livings, and choose their own husbands. I admit, unapologetically, that these values are profoundly bourgeois. I assert that they are the impossible dream of millions of women in many parts of the world today. To attack this very old genre, so stable in its form, so joyful in its celebration of freedom, is to discount, and perhaps even to deny, the most personal hopes of millions of women around the world.

(fixed typos)

Edited April 5, 2019 by Le Cygne

[Le Cygne]

As part of the reread, I found many echoes for Sansa/Sandor from Jane Eyre by Charlotte Brontë. This was a nice find: "My little friend!" said he, "I wish I were in a quiet island with only you; and trouble, and danger, and hideous recollections removed from me."

Here's an excerpt from an article Emily and Charlotte Brontë’s Re-reading of the Byronic hero by Cristina Ceron that discusses Mr. Rochester as a Byronic hero, and Jane as a strong counterpoint, and calls to mind the Sansa and Sandor dynamic in the books:

Charlotte [Bronte's] use of the gothic subtext throughout the novel is functional to the development of the plot, and it serves the classical cathartic purpose of creating suspense, fear and sympathy towards the characters. The gothic allure is never let loose, and is always mitigated by the domestic nature of the narration... The only diversion from the realistic path of the narration is carried out at the last turning point of the novel, when Jane and Rochester experience a kind of telepathy, and consequently Jane runs back in order to save him from misery...

In fact, the strongest dynamics the novel puts forth are in the agonistic relation the protagonists build up from the very beginning when, far from acquiescing in her master’s wishes, Jane seems eager to counter them, in order to stress her individuality. Moreover, at the highest of her crises, Jane... never bends the knee to anyone, not even to Rochester, as she lucidly explains when she sets social distinctions apart from inner nature: “I feel akin to him—I understand the language of his countenance and movements: though rank and wealth sever us widely, I have something in my brain and heart, in my blood and nerves, that assimilates me mentally to him”. Jane’s feeling of affinity with Rochester is reciprocated by him, not only in terms of individual worth and dignity, but more prominently in terms of a cosmic bond which seems to reach beyond their will...

In building up such a complex character, utterly conventional in social role and upbringing, yet totally innovative in soul and existential expectations, Charlotte probably aimed to rehabilitate the extra-rational side of the human being, which was hardly accepted for powerful characters such as the Byronic heroes, and totally discarded in relation to proper positive female models. She wanted Jane to be admired and sympathized with by the reader, not in spite of her irrational and fiery soul, but because of it, as if to demonstrate that the dark—at times gothic—side of the human being is not necessarily dangerous and shameful, but that it can render a woman strong and indomitable, if duly kept in check.

[Karmarni]

Oh, I was looking at Byronic heroes just the other day! I definitely think that Sandor fits this character description. He is an anti-hero, it's practically spelled out from the beginning. When he first tells Sansa about his face, we see her reach out to him empathetically, and fear for him, and so do we in that moment. We begin to see more of the picture of who he is.

The telepathy that Ceron mentions above, that seems very Beauty and the Beast to me. They just know, they are connected by a bond that can withstand distances. GRRM is doing this with Sandor when Sansa continues to think upon him. Keeping him alive, keeps her interested and connected to him.

I like how both Jane in Brontë's work, and Sansa in GRRM's, both challenge Rochester/Sandor. It does put less emphasis on social distinctions, but it also adds tension and it furthers their relationship. By fighting, they get to know the other even better. They see how they argue and how they overcome arguing.

Ceron "irrational and fiery soul" description - how true! And it's interesting that in this Gothic novel, published in 1847, the author has written this non-traditional, but yet traditional, female character. Sansa herself is currently a more traditional character, but I feel that she will make some changes in the forthcoming TWoW.

It's utterly amazing to me how many similarities there are between Jane Eyre and Sansa and Sandor. 
-- "My little friend!" said he, "I wish I were in a quiet island with only you;"
-- "Little bird," said he, "I was on the Quiet Island,"
I can completely see that second sentence uttered by Sandor sometime in the future.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Karmarni

[LadyOfCastamere]

This is an awesome thread, I thoroughly enjoyed reading all these great essays though it seems I'm a few years late.

@Le Cygne I especially loved your elaboration of Sansa and Sandor and how GRRM embedded parallels to other romance literature. I missed at least 90% of the hidden treasures that you laid bare here, thank you so much!

This passage of yours

 

 

 

Quote

Dunk remembers the song about stealing a sweet kiss with a blade while digging a grave: The spring rains had softened the ground, so Dunk had no trouble digging the grave. He chose a spot on the western slope of a low hill... Only a few days past, he had been singing as they rode, the old song about going to Gulltown to see a fair maid, but instead of Gulltown he'd sung of Ashford. Off to Ashford to see the fair maid, heigh-ho, heigh-ho, Dunk thought miserably as he dug.

..made me realize how much GRRM actually hid in history tales and songs as well. The song 'Off to Gulltown' fits SanSan perfectly as well:

Off to Gulltown to see the fair maid,
heigh-ho, heigh-ho.
I'll steal a sweet kiss with the point of my blade,
heigh-ho, heigh-ho.
I'll make her my love and we'll rest in the shade,
heigh-ho, heigh-ho.

Sansa is a highborn Lady Stark of Winterfell, but Alayne is a simple maid of Gulltown. Dunk also mentions the song as he digs the grave, just as (presumably) Sandor may do while he's digging graves (gosh that sad atmosphere!). Noticeably though, the order of actions is messed up. First there is an UnKiss (that may become a real kiss later), now we have the Maid of Gulltown outside of Gulltown and a sad man digging graves (perhaps there's a line of the song missing/not revealed yet?). I may be completely reading into something that isn't there, but mayhaps we will get the song played out in proper order, including the sweet ending, in TWoW

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Another song that seemed to portray a certain relationship is the song My Featherbed in regards of Arya and Gendry. Again I may as well be wrong, but it is sung at Acorn Hall when Gendry first sees Arya dressed as a Lady and he comes to the realization that when war is done and they go back to their families, the old feudal structures will be enforced again, making it impossible for him and her to be an (at least official) couple. 

My featherbed is deep and soft,
and there I'll lay you down,
I'll dress you all in yellow silk,
and on your head a crown.
For you shall be my lady love,
and I shall be your lord.
I'll always keep you warm and safe,
and guard you with my sword.
And how she smiled and how she laughed,
the maiden of the tree.
She spun away and said to him,
no featherbed for me.
I'll wear a gown of golden leaves,
and bind my hair with grass,
But you can be my forest love,
and me your forest lass.

I saw this as a (future) declaration of love (from Gendry) towards Arya when he becomes aware of his Baratheon  heritage. Note that The Baratheon flag shows a black stag on field of gold/yellow, so this may be a reference when the song peaks of 'yellow silk'. The way the POV speaks of taking care of his love, guarding her, being her Lord, treating her oh so nobly(!), it fully reminded me of Gendry's attitude. Especially that word expression Lady love totally rings the bells in my head.
And the answer from his love is so very Arya-like: She's a free spirit, wild, not caring at all about Lords and Ladys, yet she loves him and wants to be with him outside the common system of marriage. And she makes sure she's considered a lass, not a Lady  

~~~~~~~~~~~~

And one more thing which is sort of a spoiler from the excerpts of TWoW that GRRM released: In the second Arianne chapter it is said that the Golden Company has taken further Stormland castles and lands, including Tarth. Considering the fact that it was last said that Jaime and Brienne were on their way together and that Cersei points out that Jaime has been gone for weeks(!), this may be a hint that Jaime and Brienne are on their way to Tarth to perhaps rescue Brienne's father (after the whole Lady Stoneheart thing is done).

[Le Cygne]

There sure are a lot of fun layers to discover in the books! It seems like GRRM was poring over the classics for inspiration as he wrote the various stories.

I found these differences in the preview chapters and the published chapters, and thought I'd add them here. GRRM refined the passages to better effect:

Sansa preview chapter in A Clash of Kings (U.S. paperback edition)

I wish the Hound were still here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers and offered to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she'd kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the safety of the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside . . . she could scarcely imagine it.

Sansa published chapter in A Storm of Swords

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she'd kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside . . . she could scarcely imagine it.

Sansa preview chapter in A Clash of Kings (U.S. paperback edition)

They pulled me from my horse and would have killed me, if not for the Hound, Sansa remembered, resentful.

Sansa published chapter in A Storm of Swords

The same smallfolk who pulled me from my horse and would have killed me, if not for the Hound.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Le Cygne

[Nagini's Neville]

deleted

Edited June 6, 2022 by Nagini's Neville

[chrisdaw]

22 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

They pulled me from my horse and would have killed me, if not for the Hound, Sansa remembered, resentful.

Sansa published chapter in A Storm of Swords

The same smallfolk who pulled me from my horse and would have killed me, if not for the Hound.

So he wound back her resentment for the smallfolk at this time, too soon, not enough Cersei and Petyr exposure yet.

[Le Cygne]

17 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Wow, it's small, but for sure makes a difference! That's why I love asoiaf so much. It's written so well. And especially in Sansa's chapters there is so much subtlety and that's what I live for 

I have to tell you, how very much I enjoyed reading some of your posts!! Amazing work. I have just now read them. I was going on and on in some other thread about how the structure and themes of Sansa's and the Hound's dynamic/story (but also them as individuals) is just like Cocteau's la belle et la bete .... little did I know a lot of ppl knew that already... And why wouldn't you guys?!! It was really a treat reading all your insight on the matter!! 

Glad you liked it! It's a fun story to read!

[Nagini's Neville]

deleted

Edited June 6, 2022 by Nagini's Neville

[Le Cygne]

Here's the list of GRRM's favorite fantasy films, romance features prominently in several, including Beauty and the Beast (La Belle et la Bête). He also mentions liking Disney fairytales.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-writers-top-10-fantasy-films

I also put some excerpts from conversations about the Beauty and the Beast show here.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Le Cygne

[Karmarni]

I've just seen Ladyhawke! And I liked it. The music made me laugh so hard at the beginning, I had a moment of pure bliss in that laughter, only to see it pop up again when the high stepping black horse goes trotting along to the music. Even the knights who chase after the wonderfully played by Rutger Hauer, Captain of the Guards, Navarre, they too step in time to the music. It just KILLED me.

The story was thin, but it felt like a fable. As do many of those on this list. And, of course, I definitely saw lots of examples of where comparison to GRRM's stories could be drawn. Romances, GRRM likes the BatB stories, or opposites attract, or a 'look, you'd never have guessed it, but THIS woman likes ME' fan (what's that called?)

I have three more on this list to see. Dragonslayer, Dark City and Pan's Labyrnth. Thank you for the list!

[Le Cygne]

While we are waiting for the rest of the story, here are more romance genre techniques authors like GRRM use (his fondness for "dangerous" love interests is standard gothic romance).

There's a great discussion in the Blu-ray extras for the excellent Hitchcock adaptation of Daphne Du Maurier's Rebecca, with feminist film critics Molly Haskell and Patricia White:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7163616/

Some highlights:

Molly: I think Rebecca has held up remarkably well...

Patricia: It resonates with concerns that anyone would have about "What's my role?"...

Molly: It's also the foundational text of chick lit, which is Jane Eyre... and even before that, Pride and Prejudice...

Patricia: It has that romance, but it also has the gothic, the woman in the haunted house...

Molly: The embittered man... and he needs to be softened and humanized... and he falls in love... The fantasy that somebody will see in her what nobody else sees in her.

Patricia: Which is classic romance lit... She's such a little girl, and he's so far away, distant, unreadable...

Molly: Maybe she will emerge from this whole sort of Victorian penumbra and become a modern woman...

Patricia: It's also true that when he declares himself, all the magic is gone... It stays in the past, never comes back to the present.

Molly: Romance, love, passion has to have a mystery, a danger. Once it becomes domestic, it's gone....

It is a gothic romance which is about gothic romance...

Patricia: We don't go inside Maxim at all.

Molly: He is the brooding hero...

Patricia: The young woman is having to be trained to disavow the power she has as a child... So she is threatening in a way.

Molly. Because she can't be controlled.... He already fears that she will stop loving him. So you feel the male vulnerability, too...

Patricia: Laurence Olivier is the Rochester who is actually sexy, too.

Molly: He's so unpredictable... She never knows what to expect from him.

Patricia: The kiss or kill... Then Cary Grant is in that role in Suspicion, which is even more sinister.

Molly: The kiss can turn into the kill at any moment... The wanting to lose the self, the not wanting to lose the self...

Patricia: The Harlequin is does he love me, what is going to happen, and then it turns out his disinterest was he loved you all along, whatever.

In the gothic... the house is your prison, so it's very specific to isolation... And of course it's romanticized, too. Because if you had to be trapped in a house, Manderley would not be bad.

Molly: It's having your cake and eating it, too...

Patricia: The 40's are filled with movies that we might think of as male films, like film noir or like Citizen Kane, but are really touched by this gothic sensibility...

Edited February 16, 2021 by Le Cygne

[Le Cygne]

Along the same lines of the gothic romance discussion above...

GRRM follows the gothic tradition in his romances, too. An easy one to see is the story of Sansa and the Hound, which closely follows Beauty and the Beast. Other romances are told in similar ways.

For Sansa, the setting is a traditional castle. For Dany, the setting is the wild grassland of the Dothraki. In both cases, the women must learn to find their way in strange and often hostile new places.

They are helped by dangerous men (as one character put it, "scars make a man look dangerous, and danger is exciting"). Their interactions with these men tap into the fear and excitement of sexual awakening.

Sansa enjoys a "song" she wrote for herself, about a kiss she shared with Sandor. Dany rides Drogo like she rides her silver, and later, her dragon. The women draw on these experiences as they face new obstacles.

Here, GRRM spells out the connection between fear and excitement:

Dany remembers her first night with Drogo:

She remembered the night of her first wedding, when Khal Drogo had claimed her maidenhead beneath the stranger stars. She remembered how frightened she had been, and how excited.

GRRM describes the scene the same way:

There are a couple of stories. As a wedding gift, Khal Drogo gives Daenerys a silver horse and she rides away. For a moment you think she’s fleeing. Then she turns the horse around and leaps the horse over a big campfire. Drogo is very impressed, and it starts the relationship on a good note... So they had to scrap that sequence, which was unfortunate, as it was a bonding moment between Dany and Khal Drogo.

Then came the filming of the wedding night. In the Emilia Clarke version, it’s rape. It’s not rape in my book, and it’s not rape in the scene as we filmed it with Tamzin Merchant. It’s a seduction. Dany and Drogo don’t have the same language. Dany is a little scared but also a little excited, and Drogo is being more considerate. The only words he knows are “yes” or “no.” Originally it was a fairly faithful version.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Le Cygne

[Iceice baby]

3 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Along the same lines of the gothic romance discussion above...

Sometimes GRRM just spells it out:"Scars make a man look dangerous, and danger is exciting.” (Very Sansa and the Hound à la Beauty and the Beast.)

Dany, remembering her first night with Drogo, spells it out, too:

She remembered the night of her first wedding, when Khal Drogo had claimed her maidenhead beneath the stranger stars. She remembered how frightened she had been, and how excited.

GRRM, many years later, describing that night with the same words:

There are a couple of stories. As a wedding gift, Khal Drogo gives Daenerys a silver horse and she rides away. For a moment you think she’s fleeing. Then she turns the horse around and leaps the horse over a big campfire. Drogo is very impressed, and it starts the relationship on a good note... So they had to scrap that sequence, which was unfortunate, as it was a bonding moment between Dany and Khal Drogo.

Then came the filming of the wedding night. In the Emilia Clarke version, it’s rape. It’s not rape in my book, and it’s not rape in the scene as we filmed it with Tamzin Merchant. It’s a seduction. Dany and Drogo don’t have the same language. Dany is a little scared but also a little excited, and Drogo is being more considerate. The only words he knows are “yes” or “no.” Originally it was a fairly faithful version.

and then the proceeding chapter has her contemplating suicide.. so I guess if your delusional it can be seen as romance

[SeanF]

On 8/22/2021 at 4:29 PM, Le Cygne said:

Along the same lines of the gothic romance discussion above...

GRRM follows the gothic tradition in his romances, too. An easy one to see is the story of Sansa and the Hound, which closely follows Beauty and the Beast. Other romances are told in similar ways.

For Sansa, the setting is a traditional castle. For Dany, the setting is the wild grassland of the Dothraki. In both cases, the women must learn to find their way in strange and often hostile new places.

They are helped by dangerous men (as one character put it, "scars make a man look dangerous, and danger is exciting"). Their interactions with these men tap into the fear and excitement of sexual awakening.

Sansa enjoys a "song" she wrote for herself, about a kiss she shared with Sandor. Dany rides Drogo like she rides her silver, and later, her dragon. The women draw on these experiences as they face new obstacles.

Here, GRRM spells out the connection between fear and excitement:

Dany remembers her first night with Drogo:

She remembered the night of her first wedding, when Khal Drogo had claimed her maidenhead beneath the stranger stars. She remembered how frightened she had been, and how excited.

GRRM describes the scene the same way:

There are a couple of stories. As a wedding gift, Khal Drogo gives Daenerys a silver horse and she rides away. For a moment you think she’s fleeing. Then she turns the horse around and leaps the horse over a big campfire. Drogo is very impressed, and it starts the relationship on a good note... So they had to scrap that sequence, which was unfortunate, as it was a bonding moment between Dany and Khal Drogo.

Then came the filming of the wedding night. In the Emilia Clarke version, it’s rape. It’s not rape in my book, and it’s not rape in the scene as we filmed it with Tamzin Merchant. It’s a seduction. Dany and Drogo don’t have the same language. Dany is a little scared but also a little excited, and Drogo is being more considerate. The only words he knows are “yes” or “no.” Originally it was a fairly faithful version.

The thing I find bothersome, though, is Daenerys being made so miserable that she resolves to take her own life, before she has her dragon dream.

[Le Cygne]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

The thing I find bothersome, though, is Daenerys being made so miserable that she resolves to take her own life, before she has her dragon dream.

Well, it's the genre, and GRRM is following it pretty well (and there are lots of hints in the text that he borrows from these classic gothic romances, I put Jane Eyre borrows after the Sansa/Sandor piece).

In Rebecca, the heroine is haunted by the ghost of her husband's first wife. In Jane Eyre, ditto (only she's alive!) The challenges are often psychological, it's a pretty special kind of hero's journey.

If you look at the top of this page, there are all of these story elements, too:

• The Rival (without rivals, there is no possibility for crisis)
• Moral Weight (if the lovers cannot elevate themselves morally, they will not be able to find authentic love; that is, they must have a worldview shift that raises their moral fiber)
• Helpers, Hinderers (those who help the two come together, those who work to destroy the match)
• Gender Divide (distinct differences in the ways the two lovers view love must be in play)
• External Need (external pressures to find a mate)
• Forces At Play Beyond the Couple's Control (social convention)
• Forces At Play in the Couple's Control (one or both lovers has to get out of their own way to change their behavior and worldview)
• Rituals (the lovers develop little things they only do with one another)
• Secrets
  • Secrets society keeps from the couple
  • Secrets the couple keeps from society
  • Secrets the couple keeps from one another
  • Secrets one of the couple keeps from himself/herself

So let's look at Dany. He shows her meeting the challenges of what is at first a hostile world, that over time, she makes her own. It's through Drogo's gift of the silver that she comes into her own.

I think he did a really nice job with riding as the means for self-discovery:

Drogo giving her the silver, bonding with him via the silver (as he points out in the quote above), the meshing of the dragon dreams with the silver showing her the way, riding Drogo, and ultimately, riding her dragon, Drogon.

And all the romantic elements are there: the rival (Jorah), the gender divide (Dany showing Drogo how she likes it - "this night I would look at your face"), the helpers (Irri, Jhiqui, Doreah), the hinderers (Viserys), forces at play both beyond and in the couple's control (the Dothraki lifestyle where there are things that are positive and things that are negative, and together, they find a way forward together), and so on.

I think he's woven all of this together nicely. Like Tina Turner sang, he doesn't like stories that are nice and easy, he likes stories that are nice and rough. So it's easy to see why this sort of story appeals to him.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Le Cygne

[LongRider]

Fascinating post, I really enjoy it when relevant critical analysis is done to this series, especially for the romances.   Thanks Le Cygne, a joy to read.   ☺️