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Rethinking Romance: Love Stories of ASOIAF, Part 2

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It does seem suspiciously similar, right? Now we have to find out if GRRM has read Mahabharata, or if there are other similar stories which he may be familiar with.

I especially like the twist how the bride becomes the abductor - it's not like this course of events hasn't been proposed for Lyanna :D

Although I've no idea whether GRRM is familiar with the Mahabharata, I thought I'd offer a little more information about this tale, for those of you who are interested in the parallel. The first thing I'd note is that this epic tradition is just as ambiguous about the nature of the "abduction" as ASoIaF is about Lyanna's (at least so far!). True, there are later variants like that offered above that see Subhadra as complicit in her "abduction," but in the earlier tellings she is definitely abducted by Arjuna (with the collusion of the god Krishna, who is Subhadra's brother and Arjuna's cousin), and there's nothing about her driving the chariot. Thus, the later tradition turns the story into a romance, when it's not so in the earlier tellings. However, in all cases Subhadra and Arjuna come to love eachother. And though it's more of an L+R=J detail, it's notable that Subhadra and Draupadi, the chief queen of Arjuna and his brothers (they're in a polyandrous marriage, one queen for 5 brothers), is described as loving, and that it is the son of (the son of) Arjuna and Subhadra who is ultimately responsible for carrying on the lineage, every other offspring being killed in an act of attempted magical genocide. But honestly, I doubt that GRRM is familiar with this tradition, as I see no evidence in the texts that he knows or draws upon South Asian literature. But marriage by abduction is a common motif in epic literature, and there are almost always questions about whether the woman is complicit in her own abduction.

Love the Rethinking Romance series, by the way!

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Renly/Loras Scene-by-Scene

[sNIP]

Renly/Loras Analysis

[sNIP]

I absolutely love the analysis. :cheers: I never ship anyone (except Mickey Malkovich and Ian Gallagher in US Shameless) but your essay was so moving I find that my heart has grown three times.

One of the things for which I applaud GRRM is that he strayed from stereotypes. I can't help but wonder how much more of this romance we would have seen if the first book had been written say, two years ago. Maybe the thing that makes is so special is the subtlety with which it was handled.

Also, I'm trying to revive the thread, trying to get to Dany and Daario.

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Dog Lover, that's a very interesting and well-written account of Renly and Loras. I see echoes of the relationship between Edward of Carnarvon and Piers Gaveston. Unfortunately, in popular imagination, Edward and Piers are regarded as a pair of mincing, preening, cowardly fops, who get put to flight by brave and manly Scotsmen (who paint their faces blue). In reality, Edward was a fine athlete and warrior (but a bad general). Gaveston, like Loras, was an outstanding tournament fighter and knight.

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Dog Lover, that's a very interesting and well-written account of Renly and Loras. I see echoes of the relationship between Edward of Carnarvon and Piers Gaveston. Unfortunately, in popular imagination, Edward and Piers are regarded as a pair of mincing, preening, cowardly fops, who get put to flight by brave and manly Scotsmen (who paint their faces blue). In reality, Edward was a fine athlete and warrior (but a bad general). Gaveston, like Loras, was an outstanding tournament fighter and knight.

Thanks, Kyoshi and SeanF. SeanF, it's interesting that you mention Edward and Piers just now because I'm literally just finishing an essay comparing the two couples. I hope to have it up by the end of the weekend. I do believe GRRM said Piers Gaveston is partly the inspiration for Loras.

After I finish the essay, we'll move on to Dany and Daario. :love:

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Thanks, Kyoshi and SeanF. SeanF, it's interesting that you mention Edward and Piers just now because I'm literally just finishing an essay comparing the two couples. I hope to have it up by the end of the weekend. I do believe GRRM said Piers Gaveston is partly the inspiration for Loras.

After I finish the essay, we'll move on to Dany and Daario. :love:

If you're interested, there's a superb edwardthesecond.blogspot.com , by Kathryn Warner, who's about to publish a biography about him.

Loras must have realised that if Renly became King, he'd have to fade into the background. Renly would have to produce children, to secure his dynasty. And, he could hardly shame Margaery, by appearing to be uninterested in her. I wonder what future Renly intended for Loras. Would he just be the Lord Commander

of his Kingsguard, or did he intend that Loras (like Gaveston) should marry and become a great lord?

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If you're interested, there's a superb edwardthesecond.blogspot.com , by Kathryn Warner, who's about to publish a biography about him.

Loras must have realised that if Renly became King, he'd have to fade into the background. Renly would have to produce children, to secure his dynasty. And, he could hardly shame Margaery, by appearing to be uninterested in her. I wonder what future Renly intended for Loras. Would he just be the Lord Commander

of his Kingsguard, or did he intend that Loras (like Gaveston) should marry and become a great lord?

Thanks! That sounds right up my alley and I'll check it out. Ah, wait--I just noticed that it's in my sources cited for the Edward II/Piers essay. But I'll check it out more thoroughly later.

I'm kind of under the impression that Renly would have treat Margaery well and do nothing to overtly humiliate her, but still intended to keep Loras close. Good question about arranging an advantageous marriage for Loras. Considering how ambitious the Tyrells are, I could see them pressing this issue themselves. Were the members of Renly's Kingsguard expected to take a vow of chastity?

Edited by DogLover

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Edward II and Piers Gaveston: The Inspiration for Renly and Loras?



A while back Ran mentioned in a forum post that GRRM said in an interview that Loras’ character was partly inspired by Piers Gaveston, King Edward II’s purported lover. I haven’t been able to find the interview (if someone finds it, I would greatly appreciate it if you shared), but it certainly makes sense as Loras’ character shares many of the same personality traits and talents as Piers Gaveston. In any event, I think it’s worth exploring the relationship between Piers Gaveston and King Edward II of England in comparison to Renly and Loras.



Piers Gaveston, born around 1284 to a low-ranking Glascon lord, experienced a meteoric ascent. By his early teens, Piers, who managed to ingratiate himself to King Edward I, was a member of the English royal household. In 1300, King Edward I moved Piers to his son’s household, his son being the current Prince of Wales and the future King Edward II. Piers and the Prince of Wales, who were both sixteen years old at the time, took an immediately liking to each other and were inseparable. Prince Edward was said to be enamored with Piers’ wit, charisma, flamboyance, and knowledge of the art of war and military tactics.



Even though Piers was originally considered an excellent example for Prince Edward by the king (upon joining the royal household, Piers impressed Edward I with his impeccable and virtuous behavior), Edward I, in a radical change of heart, eventually banished Piers to France in 1307 for being a bad influence on his son, as Gaveston was reputed to have little merit other than “the beauty of his person, the frivolous wit, the showy accomplishments, and the superficial cleverness which had conquered the affections of the young Edward”. However, the real reason is more likely that Edward I was upset that the relationship between his son and Piers had developed into something far more than platonic companionship.



Piers also infuriated Edward I when he, along with twenty-one other knights, deserted the English army during a campaign in Scotland to attend a tourney in France. Edward I declared them all traitors, forfeited their estates, and demanded their arrests. Piers asked Prince Edward to intervene on their behalf and Prince Edward was able to convince his stepmother, Queen Margaret, to plead with Edward I to show leniency. The king acquiesced, but his attitude toward Piers remained chilly, especially when he found out that Prince Edward did something unthinkable for his station—he swore an oath to be Piers’ brother-in-arms. This oath included the sharing of all of their possessions, which also meant that Piers, a commoner, could one day share the government of England.



Prince Edward further infuriated his father by granting Piers the County of Ponthieu. Treasurer William Langton very reluctantly delivered this message to Edward I: “My lord King, I am sent on behalf of my lord the prince, your son, though as God lives, unwillingly, to seek in his name your license to promote his knight Piers Gaveston to the rank of the Count of Ponthieu." Edward I angrily responded, "Who are you who dares to ask such things? As God lives, if not for the fear of the Lord, and because you said at the outset that you undertook this business unwillingly, you would not escape my hands!" Prince Edward was then summoned by the king to answer for this absurd and offensive request. The prince told his father that he merely wanted him to grant the County of Ponthieu to Piers. At that point, Edward I flew into a rage and not only verbally berated his son, threatening his inheritance, but grabbed the prince by the head and tore out handfuls of hair and then threw him to the floor and kicked him until exhausted.




After meeting with the Lords who had gathered for the Parliament of Carlisle, the king announced Piers Gaveston’s banishment. However, this appears to be more of a punishment for the prince than Piers himself, as Piers was granted a generous pension. In addition to exile, Edward I made the prince and Piers promise never to see each other again without his permission.




Piers’ exile did not last long, as King Edward I died shortly thereafter and Edward II immediately recalled Piers in 1308. Edward II bestowed upon Gaveston the earldom of Cornwall, a title previously reserved for royalty and was intended to go to Edward I’s second son. This act of raising a commoner to such heights enraged the nobility, a rage Edward II further fueled by arranging an incredibly advantageous marriage for Gaveston—to Edward’s own niece, Margaret de Clare, also sister to the immensely powerful Earl of Gloucester. This marriage elevated Gaveston to the highest levels of English nobility. Gaveston, referred to as “The Favorite,” made no effort to ingratiate himself to the members of the nobility, and, quite to the contrary, provoked them with his haughty behavior. The marriage offered the excuse for a series of feasts and hunts followed by a tournament. In this tournament, Piers handed prominent nobles an embarrassing defeat. It was reported that Gaveston, an excellent jouster, humiliated the earls of Warenne, Hereford, and Arundel, and was hardly humble about his victory.



Adding insult to injury, when Edward II left England to marry Isabelle, Princess of France, he appointed Gaveston as regent in his stead. Since regents are typically close members of the family, this decision only intensified the nobility’s exasperation and rage, especially since the already arrogant Piers ramped up his outlandish and disrespectful behavior: Gaveston was accused of doing little other than “take a proud attitude to those who came before him.” Peirs’ arrogant behavior continued even after Edward’s return.



Edward II, apparently oblivious to the political climate (or he simply just didn’t care) committed an unforgivable faux pas--during the coronation feast he ignored his new wife, focusing all of his attention on Gaveston. King Philip IV of France, insulted by the treatment of his daughter, supported the English nobility’s demands that Gaveston be sent back into exile, a demand Edward II could not refuse. The Archbishop of Canterbury also threatened Gaveston with excommunication if he returned. Gaveston also lost the earldom of Cornwall, a contingent of the exile, but Edward II found other ways to restore prestige and wealth to Gaveston. He conferred upon Gaveston land worth 3,000 marks annually in Gascony, which equaled the same value to lands lost in England. Gaveston was also appointed the king’s Lieutenant of Ireland. This decision of Edward II has been interpreted as restoring Gaveston’s honor, which was besmirched when he was ordered into exile.



Edward II was devastated after Gaveston went into exile in Ireland. He supposedly took his entire household to bid Gaveston adieu, and pined and sulked during Gaveston’s absence. He even involved himself in trite legal matters, such as punishing trespassers on Gaveston’s property on the Isle of Wight.



Edward II managed to bring Gaveston back from exile in 1309, and Gaveston resumed his prestigious role at court as Edward II’s principal advisor and controller of royal patronage. Gaveston also allegedly continued to behave as arrogantly as ever and bestowed unflattering nicknames upon prominent leaders, making no secret about it: the implacable Earl of Warwick was ‘the Black Dog of Arden’, Earl of Pembroke was ‘Joseph the Jew’, and the highly regarded Earl of Lincoln was ‘Burst Belly’. According to the Vita, in this year Edward II and Piers spent Christmas together “making up for former absence by their long wished-for session of daily and intimate conversation.”



On September 7, 1310, Edward II pardoned Piers for the death of Thomas de Walkyngham of Yorkshire, but no other details are available, so it is not certain why this man was killed. Edward II also pardoned Piers for “all other felonies and trespasses with which he has been charged," but what those charges are also remain a mystery.



The buildup of resentment among the great lords continued and soon boiled over, resulting in the appointment of the Lord Ordainers—a committee of 21 earls, barons, and bishops who drew up rules for royal household and realm management. In 1311, the Ordainers demanded that Gaveston again be sent into exile, but this time permanently. Edward II, in an attempt to save Gaveston from exile, told the Ordainers that he would agree to any restriction on his authority if Gaveston could stay. The Ordainers remained resolute and demanded that Gaveston be exiled. A devastated Edward II had no choice but to obey. However, he brought Gaveston back from exile within a few months, declaring the exile illegal and restored all of Gaveston’s confiscated possessions.



This violation nearly led to a civil war. Edward II fled with Gaveston from Newcastle to Scarborough with the Earl of Lancaster in pursuit. Edward II left Gaveston in Scarborough and then went to York. Gaveston was forced to surrender after the earls of Pembroke and Warwick besieged him. Pembroke, promising Gaveston’s safety, took him to Deddington. The next day Warwick captured Gaveston and took him to Warwick where Gaveston was paraded past a jeering crowd and placed in a dungeon, all to the dismay of Pembroke, who felt his honor was tarnished since he guaranteed Gaveston’s well-being.



Lancaster and Warwick, after a mockery of a trial, decided that Gaveston must die and ran him through with a sword before decapitating him. His body was left on Blacklow Hill to rot, but was later brought to the Dominican frairy at King’s Langley in Hertfordshire for embalming and burial. In 1823, a monument, with the inscription “the Minion of a hateful King beheaded by Barons as lawless as himself” was erected on Blacklow Hill where Gaveston was believed to be executed.



Edward II was devastated by Gaveston’s death. Initially reacting with rage and then cold fury, the king was hell bent on revenge and ten years after Piers’ death, Edward II had the Earl of Lancaster killed.



Edward II’s relationship with Piers Gaveston not only incurred the enmity of the nobility, but the queen consort, as well. Edward II openly favored the company of Gaveston over Queen Isabella, causing discord in their marriage very early on. This discord apparently intensified over time, since Isabella took a lover, Roger Mortimer. Together, they plotted to overthrow Edward II in favor of Edward II and Isabella’s son, a plot she followed through on, resulting in Edward II”s murder.



Loras, similar to Piers Gaveston, is extremely arrogant, as noted numerous times by Tyrion, Jaime, and Cersei. He is also a renowned tourney knight, but really doesn’t cross a line over to haughty, provocative, and disrespectful, as Piers Gaveston was often accused of behaving. To the contrary, his character is often gallant, as he was when participating in the Hand’s Tourney when giving the ladies roses, and when escorting Sansa to supper with his sister and grandmother (before Sansa mentioned Renly). Of course, considering his reputation for pomp and ceremony and his ability to ingratiate himself to Edward I, Piers also most certainly knew how to behave gallantly. Clearly, Loras himself was playing a role when making the ladies swoon with roses and sweet words, as evidenced by Sansa’s reaction. But there’s the issue of resorting to “trickery” during the Hand’s Tourney by riding a mare in heat against Gregor’s ill-tempered stallion, making Loras appear dishonorable. Gregor’s reaction to losing is also somewhat similar to the reaction of the earls of Warrene, Hereford, and Arundel when Piers’ team defeated them in a tournament. They were reported to be humiliated and resentful, and carried a grudge against Piers.



Comparing the relationships, or at least specific events, between Edward II/Piers and Renly/Loras, some key incidents really stand out. For one, Edward II ignoring his new wife during the coronation feast is redolent of Cat’s thoughts about Renly ignoring Margaery while focusing most of his attention on Loras. Two, Piers abandoning a military campaign so he can participate in a tourney is very similar to Cat’s dismay that Renly (and, by association, Loras) are actually “playing at war” rather than fighting an actual war. And Edward II and Piers fleeing Newcastle just as the country is on the brink of civil war is evocative of Renly and Loras fleeing King’s Landing immediately after Robert’s death and Renly’s unsuccessful attempt to convince Ned to arrest Cersei and take custody of her children.



On an emotional level, the relationships are often inverted, with Edward II’s grief over Piers’ banishments and death paralleling Loras’ grief when Renly dies. It’s impossible to determine if Piers was just an opportunist, or if he really was in love with Edward II, yet, Loras’ devotion to Renly and his devastation when Renly dies is evidence that he truly loved Renly. This doesn’t negate that the Tyrells are ambitious and opportunistic. But their ambitions don’t undermine or diminish Loras’ love for Renly. There also is no way of knowing if Pier’s was simply using Edward II for his own gain. Most primary sources we have in this matter are biased propaganda used to disparage an unpopular king. Edward II’s moods indicate his feelings were genuine, but I know of no account of Piers’ emotions when he was forcibly separated from Edward II.



Another similarity is Margaery’s bethrothal to Renly—Loras’ own sister marries his lover. This union elevates the Tyrells a great deal—Margaery is a queen. Edward II marries his lover to his niece, securing an incredibly advantageous position for Piers, elevating him to one of the highest stations possible.



While Edward II was very much the legitimate heir to the English throne, Renly was a usurper. However, Edward II was largely considered an inept king and those who knew Renly doubted his ability to rule.



Maester Cressen:




The youngest of Lord Steffon's three sons had grown into a man bold but heedless, who acted from impulse rather than calculation. In that, as in so much else, Renly was like his brother Robert, and utterly unlike Stannis.




The bold little boy with wild black hair and laughing eyes was a man grown now, one-and-twenty, and still he played his games. "Look at me, I’m a king," Cressen thought sadly. Oh, Renly, Renly, dear sweet child, do you know what you are doing? And would you care if you did? Is there anyone who cares for him but me?


Stannis:




What has Renly ever done to earn a throne? He sits in council and jests with Littlefinger and at tourneys he dons his splendid suit of armor and allows himself to be knocked off his horse by a better man. That is the sum of my brother Renly, who thinks he ought to be king.


Olenna Redwyne:




He knew how to dress and he knew how to smile and he knew how to bathe, and somehow he got the notion that this made him fit to be king.


Donal Noye:




Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He’ll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he’s copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day.


Jaime’s thoughts when Loras’ asserts that Renly was “the king that should have been. He was the best of them”:




The best dressed, perhaps.


It can be argued that Edward II’s infatuation for Piers made him a reckless king, blinding him to the growing resentment of the powerful nobility. The same could be said of Renly in a sense. Did Renly usurp Stannis’ crown at Loras’ behest? As just mentioned, the Tyrells are certainly interested in climbing the social and political ladder. While this can be interpreted as a reckless move that sealed Renly’s grim fate, Renly did have the support of the Tyrells and many other powerful families, such as the Tarlys, and was popular with the people. Edward II was not only loathed by the nobility, but he wasn’t well regarded by his own father and his wife who rebelled against him.



<insert a proper conclusion eventually>



Sources



http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/50215-book-spoilers-renly-and-loras/?p=2886944


http://www.britainexpress.com/History/Edward-II-and-Piers-Gaveston.html


http://www.geni.com/people/Piers-de-Gaveston/6000000004838088326


http://www.geni.com/people/Piers-de-Gaveston/6000000004838088326


http://edwardthesecond.blogspot.com/2009/02/nineteen-things-you-never-knew-about.html


Edited by DogLover

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That's very good, Dog Lover.

One difference between the two is that Loras seems to be completely unambitious, whereas Gaveston was greedy for titles and wealth. Loras wants to be a great knight, but doesn't seem interested in lands and power (he resembles Jaime, in that way). Loras is, as you say, arrogant, but it's different to Gaveston's arrogance - Loras doesn't mock the high nobility of Westeros, of which he is one, after all. Gaveston comes over as more of a parvenu, who had to flaunt his wealth and power in a way that completely irritated the English nobility.

Kathryn Warner argues convincingly, in my view, that Edward's "neglect" of Isabella was not so strange. Edward was 23 when they married, she was 12. It would generally have been considered medically dangerous to begin sexual relations with such a young girl. Indeed, it may have been a term of the marriage agreement that sexual relations would not begin until Isabella was 15 or 16. Edward actually fathered a son outside marriage, Adam, around this time. After 1310, court records show that Edward spent most of his time with Isabella. For a time, their marriage actually seems to have been quite successful (the final breach

came after 1322, Edward fell under the influence of the Despensers.)

Martin draws heavily on this period of history. Isabella has more than a few similarities with Cersei, and Tywin with Philip the Fair. Cersei's attempt to frame Margaery for adultery has echoes of Isabella's plot to bring down her sisters-in-law, Marguerite and Blanche, through allegations of adultery with two knights in 1314.

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Gaveston's real offence (in the eyes of the English nobility) was probably not so much that he was Edward's lover (if indeed he was). It was more that he was a minor nobleman who was greedy, arrogant, and who failed to treat them with the deference which was their due.

In the Show, it's very much Ser Loras who prompts Renly to make his bid for the Throne with his family's backing. That's not made clear (as you say) in the books. Nonetheless, the Tyrells are a very close and loving family, so Loras's advocacy must have been a factor in their decision to support Renly. And with the backing of the Tyrells comes the backing of most of the leading families of the Reach.

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One difference between the two is that Loras seems to be completely unambitious, whereas Gaveston was greedy for titles and wealth. Loras wants to be a great knight, but doesn't seem interested in lands and power (he resembles Jaime, in that way). Loras is, as you say, arrogant, but it's different to Gaveston's arrogance - Loras doesn't mock the high nobility of Westeros, of which he is one, after all. Gaveston comes over as more of a parvenu, who had to flaunt his wealth and power in a way that completely irritated the English nobility.

Kathryn Warner argues convincingly, in my view, that Edward's "neglect" of Isabella was not so strange. Edward was 23 when they married, she was 12. It would generally have been considered medically dangerous to begin sexual relations with such a young girl. Indeed, it may have been a term of the marriage agreement that sexual relations would not begin until Isabella was 15 or 16. Edward actually fathered a son outside marriage, Adam, around this time. After 1310, court records show that Edward spent most of his time with Isabella. For a time, their marriage actually seems to have been quite successful (the final breach

came after 1322, Edward fell under the influence of the Despensers.)

Martin draws heavily on this period of history. Isabella has more than a few similarities with Cersei, and Tywin with Philip the Fair. Cersei's attempt to frame Margaery for adultery has echoes of Isabella's plot to bring down her sisters-in-law, Marguerite and Blanche, through allegations of adultery with two knights in 1314.

Your comparison of Loras to Jaime is a good one. I also never really considered him ambitious and agree his focus is becoming a great knight and certainly don't find him haughty. Like Jaime thinks, he has a reckless and arrogant streak that comes with youth, talent, mixed in with some entitlement as a member of the nobility.

The age difference between Edward II and Isabella is also a good point, however, according to primary sources, he greatly offended Isabella during the coronation feast by ignoring and lavishing all of his attention on Piers. So, even if consummation had to wait, Edward II failed to follow the etiquette expected of him, something Renly takes care not to do, as, according to Catelyn, he does take the time to feed her bites of food and occasionally kiss her. I like the Isabella/Cersei comparison, too. Also, there are similarities between Piers Gavenston and Elizabeth Woodville (and family members), in that they were both opportunnistic commoners who incensed the nobility with their haughtiness and greed.

Gaveston's real offence (in the eyes of the English nobility) was probably not so much that he was Edward's lover (if indeed he was). It was more that he was a minor nobleman who was greedy, arrogant, and who failed to treat them with the deference which was their due.

In the Show, it's very much Ser Loras who prompts Renly to make his bid for the Throne with his family's backing. That's not made clear (as you say) in the books. Nonetheless, the Tyrells are a very close and loving family, so Loras's advocacy must have been a factor in their decision to support Renly. And with the backing of the Tyrells comes the backing of most of the leading families of the Reach.

While it's largely assumed that Edward II and Piers were lovers, there are those who argue that Edward II and Piers shared a deep brotherly love.

I do wonder if Loras encouraged Renly to take the throne because he believed he would be a great king and how much influence Mace had. I can see Loras mentioning and Mace thinking it would be a great opportunity to make Margaery a queen. Or if it was solely Renly's idea. Yet, since Renly and Loras were plotting to replace Cersei by making Margaery Robert's queen, it seems that the Tyrells had their eyes set on this one way or another.

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Thanks for the essay Dog Lover, very interesting history. Loras is no Piers, but I think he had some ambitions when King Robert died. Alas, all went to heck when Renly died.


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Hello Rethinking Romancers - just to let you know that resident Rhaegar/Lyanna expert - Ygrain - is our guest in the current episode of Radio Westeros. Given she wrote the Rhaegar/Lyanna piece for this project, we thought you might be interested to hear her talk about her favorite subject.



We're also excited to announce that Rethinking Romance will be featured in our next episode - and Doglover will be joining us! She will talk us through a certain romantic pairing and then discuss this project. :D



Listen to Radio Westeros via my sig.

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Thank you , Yolkboy! :) Can't wait to hear them, too.

(Also I wanted to say thank you for asking me to be on the show, I do appreciate it! Sorry I couldn't do it, but thank you for playing my song!)

Edited by Le Cygne

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Hello Rethinking Romancers - just to let you know that resident Rhaegar/Lyanna expert - Ygrain - is our guest in the current episode of Radio Westeros. Given she wrote the Rhaegar/Lyanna piece for this project, we thought you might be interested to hear her talk about her favorite subject.

We're also excited to announce that Rethinking Romance will be featured in our next episode - and Doglover will be joining us! She will talk us through a certain romantic pairing and then discuss this project. :D

Listen to Radio Westeros via my sig.

Back on here after a long absence and I'm very excited to hear about Yolkboy's announcement! Really looking forward to it. I very much enjoyed the other episodes so far.

Thank you , Yolkboy! :) Can't wait to hear them, too. Also we have Dany/Daario coming up shortly...

Any ideas when Sandor and Sansa will be posted?

Booknerd your Arya Gendry essays were great and funny too. I liked your take on Gendry's attitude at the Inn with all the orphans and why he was hanging around there, hoping that Arya would show up. One detail from the books that always stuck out for me was when the Hound first grabs Arya near the BWB's camp. She thinks she hears Gendry calling for her. I always believed it was him calling for her and that he was devastated when she was kidnapped, right after they had an argument too.

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Sorry the thread was locked and is now unlocked... just posted Sansa and Sandor.

Edited by Le Cygne

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