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From Pawn to Slayer: Foreshadowing Sansa


Mithras

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This theory does not belong to me completely. Some people including Fire Eater had posted this possible rape attempt before but a thread covering the full theory was missing. I edited the OP to include new evidences/comments a couple of times.



Before we start, there is an important point that must be addressed.



Many people seem to think that the vision of the GoHH about “slaying the savage giant” was fulfilled when Sansa ripped the doll’s head off over the snowy castle.



My first objection to this line of thought is that the savaging of that doll has no relevance to the rest of the story and we cannot talk about any consequence of that event. So, how could the GoHH see such an unimportant event along with very important ones like the deaths of kings? Since it does not make sense, the savaging of the doll cannot be the fulfillment of that vision.



Second, as we will see in Castle Built of Snow section, the snowy Winterfell scene and the savaging of the doll scene have their own built in foreshadowing. Instead of taking a double layered foreshadowing (i.e. the GoHH foreshadowed the snowy Winterfell scene and the snowy Winterfell scene foreshadowed whatever the actual event is) which is absurd, we have to deduce that both the GoHH’s vision and the foreshadowing in snowy Winterfell have to point the same actual event: Littlefinger will try to rape Sansa and she will slay him when he does that.



The GHH’s Vision



I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.



“What are you doing?”


Petyr straightened his cloak. “Kissing a snow maid.”



Considering the Purple Wedding and Littlefinger’s words above, Sansa is the maid in the GoHH’s vision without any doubt. In order to see that LF is the savage giant in the vision, we need to remember a few quotes.



In legend, Brandon the Builder had used giants to help raise Winterfell.



“The glass was locked in frames, no? Twigs are your answer. Peel them and cross them and use bark to tie them together into frames. I’ll show you.” He moved through the garden, gathering up twigs and sticks and shaking the snow from them. When he had enough, he stepped over both walls with a single long stride and squatted on his heels in the middle of the yard. Sansa came closer to watch what he was doing. His hands were deft and sure, and before long he had a crisscrossing latticework of twigs, very like the one that roofed the glass gardens of Winterfell.



He [The Titan of Braavos] could step right over the walls of Winterfell.



The device painted on the shield was one Sansa did not know; a grey stone head with fiery eyes, upon a light green field. “My grandfather’s shield,” Petyr explained when he saw her gazing at it. “His own father was born in Braavos and came to the Vale as a sellsword in the hire of Lord Corbray, so my grandfather took the head of the Titan as his sigil when he was knighted.”



Brandon the Builder used giants to help raise Winterfell. Littlefinger, whose family sigil is the grey stone head of the Titan, helped Sansa raise Winterfell from snow. Arya thought that the Titan of Braavos could easily step over the Walls of Winterfell and Littlefinger literally stepped over the walls of the Winterfell they were building from snow. Littlefinger is a savage man considering how he murdered Lysa and how he took his revenge from the Starks. Therefore, Littlefinger is the savage giant in the GoHH’s vision.



Castle Built of Snow



“You know why they call her Gatehouse Ami? She raises her portcullis for every knight who happens by.”



He [Tyrion] hopped down from the dais and grabbed Sansa roughly. “Come, wife, time to smash your portcullis. I want to play come-into-the-castle.”



“Winterfell is the seat of House Stark,” Sansa told her husband-to-be. “The great castle of the north.”


“It’s not so great.” The boy knelt before the gatehouse. “Look, here comes a giant to knock it down.” He stood his doll in the snow and moved it jerkily. “Tromp tromp I’m a giant, I’m a giant,” he chanted. “Ho ho ho, open your gates or I’ll mash them and smash them.” Swinging the doll by the legs, he knocked the top off one gatehouse tower and then the other.


It was more than Sansa could stand. “Robert, stop that.” Instead he swung the doll again, and a foot of wall exploded. She grabbed for his hand but she caught the doll instead. There was a loud ripping sound as the thin cloth tore. Suddenly she had the doll’s head, Robert had the legs and body, and the rag-and-sawdust stuffing was spilling in the snow.


Lord Robert’s mouth trembled. “You killlllllllled him,” he wailed.



The erotic metaphor about the gatehouse, the portcullis and come-into-the-castle is self-evident.



In addition to the giant who aims for the gatehouse of Sansa’s castle built of snow, LF (the savage giant) also literally says that he wants to play come-into-the-castle.



“That will give it strength enough to stand, I’d think,” Petyr said. “May I come into your castle, my lady?”


Sansa was wary. “Don’t break it. Be . . .”


“. . . gentle?” He smiled. “Winterfell has withstood fiercer enemies than me. It is Winterfell, is it not?”



This “Winterfell” is not actually the castle Winterfell. These are the fiercer enemies “Winterfell” has withstood:



· The rioters in King’s Landing: They were going to gang rape and kill Sansa if not for the Hound.


· Joffrey: At Sansa’s wedding to Tyrion, Joffrey squeezed her breast and threatened to rape her on a regular basis.


· Tyrion: Sansa’s “bedding” with Tyrion can be counted as a rape attempt.


· Marillion: He was about to rape her had Lothor Brune not intervened.


· Littlefinger: His harassments keep increasing over the time.



With this perspective, “the little giant doll” attacking “the gatehouse of Sansa’s castle” symbolizes a rape attempt by LF; but the savaging of the little giant means that Sansa will slay the giant. Both the GoHH’s vision and the foreshadowing in the snowy Winterfell scene can be interpreted to yield this ending perfectly.



Castle Carved from Rock



That was when the golden-haired rogue called Lann the Clever appeared from out of the east. Some say he was an Andal adventurer from across the narrow sea, though this was millennia before the coming of the Andals to Westeros. Regardless of his origins, the tales agree that somehow Lann the Clever winkled the Casterlys out of their Rock and took it for his own.



The precise method by which he accomplished this remains a matter of conjecture. In the most common version of the tale, Lann discovered a secret way inside the Rock, a cleft so narrow that he had to strip off his clothes and coat himself with butter in order to squeeze through. Once inside, however, he began to work his mischief, whispering threats in the ears of sleeping Casterlys, howling from the darkness like a demon, stealing treasures from one brother to plant in the bedchamber of another, rigging sundry snares and deadfalls. By such methods he set the Casterlys at odds with one another and convinced them that the Rock was haunted by some fell creature that would never let them live in peace.



Other tellers prefer other versions of the tale. In one, Lann uses the cleft to fill the Rock with mice, rats, and other vermin, thereby driving out the Casterlys. In another, he smuggles a pride of lions inside, and Lord Casterly and his sons are all devoured, after which Lann claims his lordship’s wife and daughters for himself. The bawdiest of the stories has Lann stealing in night after night to have his way with the Casterly maidens whilst they sleep. In nine months time, these maids all give birth to golden-haired children whilst still insisting they had never had carnal knowledge of a man.



The last tale, ribald as it is, has certain intriguing aspects that might hint at the truth of what occurred. It is Archmaester Perestan’s belief that Lann was a retainer of some sort in service to Lord Casterly (perhaps a household guard), who impregnated his lordship’s daughter (or daughters, though that seems less likely), and persuaded her father to give him the girl’s hand in marriage. If indeed this was what occurred, assuming (as we must) that Lord Casterly had no trueborn sons, then in the natural course of events the Rock would have passed to the daughter, and hence to Lann, upon the father’s death.



A clever man coming from the east, stripping his clothes off in order to “penetrate” into the “Casterly Rock” through a “narrow cleft” by using some “lubricant”. This is another example solidifying George’s metaphor about castles/maids.



Yandel goes further and also explains the nugget of truth in this tale. The truth is that the Casterlys went extinct in the male line and Lann impregnated the last female Casterly. Lann “won the prize” (which were exactly Tywin’s words to Tyrion about bedding Sansa) by “penetrating” into the “Casterly Rock” through a “narrow cleft”.



All the different versions of how Lann came to owning the Casterly Rock are essentially the same. Through that narrow cleft, Lann was said to fill the Rock with vermin. No doubt, he was very lowborn with respect to the Casterlys which is why his progeny was considered “vermin” by the haughty nobility of old and that was the nugget of truth in this version. In the other version, Lann smuggled a pride of lions inside through that narrow cleft. This version is less racist with respect to the previous one. Lann's progeny was likened to a pride of lions this time, not vermin. And the bawdiest version is the less subtle one and requires less interpretation.



Therefore, Littlefinger is actually aiming what Lann the Clever accomplished before. Taking Lann the Clever as an inspiration to Littlefinger, we can see some striking parallels between them and even guess the true endgame of Littlefinger.



Lann the Clever;


1. was a clever man,


2. was a household guard/sellsword/man-at-arms/,


3. came from the east,


4. had different origins (Andal) than the locals (First Men),


5. was scorned by the nobility due to his low birth,


6. bedded the last female Casterly,


7. his descendants inherited the Casterly Rock,


8. there are no Casterlys to be found in the Casterly Rock,



Littlefinger;


1. is a clever man,


2. is descended from a man who came from the east,


3. is descended from a man who was a sellsword,


4. has different origins (Braavosi) than the locals (Westerosi),


5. is scorned by the nobility due to his low birth,


6. wants to bed the last female Stark,


7. wants to have his descendants inherit the Vale of Arryn, Winterfell, Riverrun, Harrenhal etc.


8. there will be no Arryns to be found in the Vale,



The bolded points are derived from Lann the Clever parallel and they are what Littlefinger actually plans, not necessarily what will happen. In fact, I don’t think he will succeed in any of the three.



Let Me Warm You



“Sweet Alayne. I am Marillion. I saw you come in from the rain. The night is chill and wet. Let me warm you.”



“I wish you could see yourself, my lady. You are so beautiful. You’re crusted over with snow like some little bear cub, but your face is flushed and you can scarcely breathe. How long have you been out here? You must be very cold. Let me warm you, Sansa. Take off those gloves, give me your hands.”


“I won’t.” He sounded almost like Marillion, the night he’d gotten so drunk at the wedding. Only this time Lothor Brune would not appear to save her; Ser Lothor was Petyr’s man. “You shouldn’t kiss me. I might have been your own daughter . . .”


“Might have been,” he admitted, with a rueful smile. “But you’re not, are you? You are Eddard Stark’s daughter, and Cat’s. But I think you might be even more beautiful than your mother was, when she was your age.”


“Petyr, please.” Her voice sounded so weak. “Please . . .”



After forcefully kissing Sansa, LF used the same phrase with a rapist who had almost succeeded.



“Though I do wish he had a better name than Littlefinger. How little is it, do you know?”


“His finger?” She blushed again. “I don’t... I never...”



Littlefinger’s little finger has been busy,”



When the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will, Ser Garlan the Gallant gave her comfort, not Littlefinger. Littlefinger never lifted so much as his little finger for her.



GRRM likes his word plays. In the end, Littlefinger will lift his “little finger” for Sansa.



A Gust of Wind



The sudden gusts of cold winds sometimes represent a grave danger of which a character remains ignorant. This is especially true if the wind stirs the cloak of that person.



Royce paused a moment, staring off into the distance, his face reflective. A cold wind whispered through the trees. His great sable cloak stirred behind like something half-alive.


“There’s something wrong here,” Gared muttered.



Royce was ignorant of the grave danger which Gared and Will had sensed.



“Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?” The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak.



Euron decided to raid and plunder the Reach. Jumping from some tall tower can be interpreted as attacking the seat of Hightowers where we have the tallest tower in the Realm. He will die at Oldtown, the seat of House Hightower.



“I beg you in the name of the Mother,” Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent.



The shadow assassin that slew Renly came with a sudden gust of wind.



And this one is from Fire Eater:



A cold gust of wind blew up her [sansa's] legs


I think Sansa will kill LF when he tries to get between her legs.



YES BUT WHY?



Why would the ever-calculating, cunning LF ruin everything with a rape attempt to Sansa?



Because LF is not the overrated, invincible schemer as much as the fans think. His success so far was not based on his own abilities only; his luck and the allowance of Varys were crucial too. And he does not control everything happening around the world. No person can be the master of chaos. More importantly, Sansa is his weakness and will cause his downfall, just like Shae was Tyrion’s weakness. The Snowy Winterfell scene was a case where he lost his control.



Littlefinger’s breath was said to smell mint several times.



There was always mint growing in the godswood, and Petyr had liked to chew it.



“Your mother was my queen of beauty once,” the man said quietly. His breath smelled of mint.



Sansa tried to step back, but he pulled her into his arms and suddenly he was kissing her. Feebly, she tried to squirm, but only succeeded in pressing herself more tightly against him. His mouth was on hers, swallowing her words. He tasted of mint.



At the final chapter of Alayne, LF’s gropings really got very disturbing.



“I did not expect you back so soon,” she said. “I am glad you’ve come.”


“I would never have known it from the kiss you gave me.” He pulled her closer, caught her face between his hands, and kissed her on the lips for a long time. “Now that’s the sort of kiss that says welcome home. See that you do better next time.”



Petyr Baelish took her by the hand and drew her down onto his lap. “I have made a marriage contract for you.”



Petyr put a finger to her lips to silence her.



“Three,” Petyr allowed. She could smell the wine on his breath, the cloves and nutmeg.



Petyr took her hand in his own and brushed his finger lightly down the inside of her palm.



He turned her hand over and lightly kissed her wrist.



“So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa... Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That’s worth another kiss now, don’t you think?”



The change from mint to wine is noteworthy. Wine makes people do silly things. Ask Viserys. He was completely out of control and almost ruined years of planning by a silly act.



“A vain young man, and greedy. Viserys lusted for his father’s throne, but he lusted for Daenerys too, and was loath to give her up. The night before the princess wed he tried to steal into her bed, insisting that if he could not have her hand, he would claim her maidenhead. Had I not taken the precaution of posting guards upon her door, Viserys might have undone years of planning.”



I think LF will drink a lot of wine and undo years of planning with a silly act.



Catfight



Arya was associated with Cat in AFfC. She was the Cat of the Canals. Remember how she saved Sam’s life from two bravos.



Little cats who howl too loud get drowned in the canals,” warned the fair-haired bravo.


“Not if they have claws.” And suddenly there was a knife in the girl’s left hand, a blade as skinny as she was.



The bravos feared the claws of Cat, which is called a finger knife. LF’s great-grand father was a Braavosi sellsword (not so different than a bravo). Wouldn’t it be nice if another Cat (Sansa) cut off Littlefinger’s “little finger” with her claws (something similar to Arya’s finger knife)?



In fact, Cat of the Canals is sworn to kill the bravo who killed his father.



“My father was the oarmaster on Nymeria. A bravo killed him for saying that my mother was more beautiful than the Nightingale. Not one of those camel cunts you met, a real bravo. Someday I’ll slit his throat.



I think Cat of the Mountains will finish that bravo. When LF tries to rape Sansa, she will show that she-wolves have claws.



Cats liked the smell of Cat. Some days she would have a dozen trailing after her before the sun went down. From time to time the girl would throw an oyster at them and watch to see who came away with it. The biggest toms would seldom win, she noticed; oft as not, the prize went to some smaller, quicker animal, thin and mean and hungry. Like me, she told herself. Her favorite was a scrawny old tom with a chewed ear who reminded her of a cat that she’d once chased all around the Red Keep.



Cats were following the trail of the Cat of the Canals. Arya chose this name as a reference to her mother and Sansa resembles her mother very much. LF sees her as an upgraded Cat. Sansa was described as a prize in the text several times. Oysters contain pearls within and Alayne is a precious Stone. There are lots of cats sniffing the trail of the prize (Sansa).



Ser Shadrich was a wiry, fox-faced man with a sharp nose and a shock of orange hair, mounted on a rangy chestnut courser. Though he could not have been more than five foot two, he had a cocksure manner.



This defines Ser Shadrich as a thin and mean animal.



“Hedge knights?” said Alayne, when the door had closed.


Hungry knights.”



And LF calls him hungry.



Ser Shadrich laughed. “Oh, I doubt that, but it may be that you and I share a quest. A little lost sister, is it? With blue eyes and auburn hair?” He laughed again. “You are not the only hunter in the woods. I seek for Sansa Stark as well.”



A big tom (Brienne) and a thin-mean-hungry cat (Shadrich) are seeking Sansa. There are/will be other big toms like Yohn Royce. I think after the LS-Jaime-Brienne plot is resolved, Brienne and Jaime might get on the way to the Vale, after somehow getting the news of the possibility of Sansa hiding there. Since Jaime is a lion, this makes him a big tom seeking Sansa as well.



But the prize will go to Shadrich as foreshadowed in the quote. I think after the death of LF, Shadrich will get Sansa. He will lead her to the KL to sell to Cersei.



“Where had you served, before my sister found you?”


“Here and there, my lord.”


“I have been to Oldtown in the south and Winterfell in the north. I have been to Lannisport in the west, and King’s Landing in the east. But I have never been to Here. Nor There.” For want of a finger, Jaime pointed his stump at Ser Osmund’s beak of a nose. “I will ask once more. Where have you served?


“In the Stepstones. Some in the Disputed Lands. There’s always fighting there. I rode with the Gallant Men. We fought for Lys, and some for Tyrosh.”



Here we see a (former) sellsword. A normal knight (or even a hedge knight) makes appearances in tourneys but since Osmund was a sellsword, Jaime did not see him anywhere.



“Ser Shadrich of the Shady Glen. Some call me the Mad Mouse.” He turned his shield to show her his sigil, a large white mouse with fierce red eyes, on bendy brown and blue. “The brown is for the lands I’ve roamed, the blue for the rivers that I’ve crossed. The mouse is me.”


“And are you mad?”


“Oh, quite. Your common mouse will run from blood and battle. The mad mouse seeks them out.”


“It would seem he seldom finds them.”


“I find enough. ’Tis true, I am no tourney knight. I save my valor for the battlefield, woman.”



It looks like Ser Shadrich was formerly a sellsword too.



“You place a deal of trust in this man Griff. Another friend of your childhood?”


“No. A sellsword, you would call him, but Westerosi born. Daenerys needs men worthy of her cause.” Illyrio raised a hand. “I know! ‘Sellswords put gold before honor,’ you are thinking. ‘This man Griff will sell me to my sister.’ Not so. I trust Griff as I would trust a brother.”


Another mortal error.



Griff is actually JonCon and he is not a sellsword. However, we cannot say that for Shadrich. As a true sellsword, he will put gold before honor and sell Sansa (another wanted for regicide just like Tyrion) to Tyrion’s sister.



I always thought she would be kidnapped by Shadrich but it is possible that she might go willingly with him at first. Depending on the course of events, Shadrich might deceive her about his intentions. As Fire Eater pointed, Shadrich presumably fought for Stannis in the Blackwater and he can offer Sansa to take her to Stannis in the North, who by then will restore Rickon to Winterfell.


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Wow... very impressive and well thought out analysis. You may very well be on to something, but I guess the only way we'll really know is when TWOW.



Have you considered posting this to the r/asoiaf subreddit? They would also be very interested in hearing your thoughts.


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Regarding rape, certainly that is possibility. I am a bit confused why the doll represents penis, and not LF in whole, especially since it was SR who was holding it. This theory has already been done by Fire Eater, and I will say what I have said to him: Simply, I don't see Sansa back in KL. I see her moving towards the North, I see her becoming player, but I honestly can't imagine retrograding her story back to old days. It would serve no purpose, and as far as the proofs for that, I find them rather tenuous. I do believe Shadrich is important in some way, but I also believe Royce and other Vale lords are being far more knowledgeable than we give them credit for. As for HtH marriage, I also doubt that will come to fruition. Plans laid out like that never comes to happen. All and all, rape portion has the probable factor in it, although I think your connections are a bit off, but the Shadrich thing, IDK, I wouldn't call that anywhere near close to probable.


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Regarding rape, certainly that is possibility. I am a bit confused why the doll represents penis, and not LF in whole, especially since it was SR who was holding it. This theory has already been done by Fire Eater, and I will say what I have said to him: Simply, I don't see Sansa back in KL. I see her moving towards the North, I see her becoming player, but I honestly can't imagine retrograding her story back to old days. It would serve no purpose, and as far as the proofs for that, I find them rather tenuous. I do believe Shadrich is important in some way, but I also believe Royce and other Vale lords are being far more knowledgeable than we give them credit for. As for HtH marriage, I also doubt that will come to fruition. Plans laid out like that never comes to happen. All and all, rape portion has the probable factor in it, although I think your connections are a bit off, but the Shadrich thing, IDK, I wouldn't call that anywhere near close to probable.

I made a small addition from Mercy chapter to the end and I edited that doll symbolism part a little.

I don't see Sansa as a player like LF or Varys and I don't think she will head North. But she will display her survival skills once again in the KL. She will be found innocent from Joffrey's murder but Cersei will keep her nonetheless, partially because she is the Lady of CR and Sansa is still married to the Imp. As a prisoner/hostage of Cersei, she will "move" her subtly and that is how I take her as a player.

The Vale Lords certainly know something but as foreshadowed in Arya and the cats quote, Yohn will not succeed to catch the prize.

HtH marriage plan will not come to fruition because Sansa will disappear from the Vale. I think it is possible that Shadrich might trick other hungry knights to join him and share the prize. We know how he wanted Brienne to join him.

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I don't see Sansa as a player like LF or Varys and I don't think she will head North. But she will display her survival skills once again in the KL. She will be found innocent from Joffrey's murder but Cersei will keep her nonetheless, partially because she is the Lady of CR and Sansa is still married to the Imp. As a prisoner/hostage of Cersei, she will "move" her subtly and that is how I take her as a player.

You do know that there are more levels to players than LF/Varys one. Sansa being player =/= being LF or Varys. As for her trip North, never forget what Jon said in AGOT about different paths leading to same castle, what the title was of the 7th book, the idea about how all started in Winterfell and how all should end there. Sansa is not Lady of CR, Cersei is. Sansa can't be found innocent because Tyrion was found guilty of a murder and there is the "one soul" law between the spouses. Simply, her returning to KL makes no narrative sense. It is a speculation, perhaps even a plausible one, but, a speculation. There is no pieces of foreshadowing, no actual proof, nothing that would suggest she is going back to KL. And also, have you all forgot Aegon? I doubt that Lannisters will be staying for long in the capitol.

The Vale Lords certainly know something but as foreshadowed in Arya and the cats quote, Yohn will not succeed to catch the prize.

I don't understand the use of that particular piece of foreshadowing.

TBH, some of these pieces of foreshadowing are far from convincing. I am sorry, but although I can agree upon possibility of rape, the entire retrograde to KL of Sansa's arc where she would do what, is completely unsupported for me. I simply don't see the foreshadowing you talk about, and the connections in the part about Shadric, Jaime, Brienne, Vale lords are simply, IMO, wrong.

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I don't see Sansa as a player like LF or Varys and I don't think she will head North.

I think that's where she's headed though.

Spoiler, maybe?

From the original synopsis for ASOIAF #4 (before he cut the time jump):

"Continuing the most ambitious and imaginative epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings The action in Book Four of A Song of Ice and Fire begins the day after the end of A STORM OF SWORDS. While the remaining northern lords war endlessly with each other and the ironmen of the isles attack the Dreadfort, Sansa becomes a skilled player in the game of thrones with Littlefinger as her mentor..."

You can read the whole synopsis here: http://www.sffworld.com/forums/showthread.php?267-The-Feast-for-Crows-synopsis!!

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I think the savage giant that Sansa kills is not LF, it's either Ramsay at winterfell or another person at the wall. I know the doll being ripped apart by Sansa over her castle of snow matches that image word by word but that doll can be anyone. I think we need to figure out where the catle of snow is in order to figure out who the savage giant is. For the castle I can think of the wall and winterfell and for the savage I can think of Ramsay who holds wf and someone at the wall, maybe even a real giant!


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Nice job, Paper Waver. :cheers:



To be honest, I expect things to play out more along the lines that Mladen describes.


Sansa has had her flirtation with Southron ambitions and values, and has had enough of that crap.


In the snow castle scene we see her reverting to her spiritual roots. She longs for Winterfell and the North.


If she were to end up in King's Landing again, under Cersei's control, it would be a major step backwards.



That said, how I expect things to play out doesn't happen that often in these novels. :p



Chebyshov, thanks for the very interesting link. :)


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Loved reading this, wonderful!



If Tyrion was found guilty, does that automatically make Sansa guilty, or would she have a separate "trial" wherein she's guilty of being an accomplice?



I wonder if her coming back to KL would promote the sort of "Invincible" feeling inside Cersei, leading her to believe that she's still the most clever of them all? It would definitely be a step backwards for Sansa (though maybe she IS kidnapped, and goes unwillingly) but would add to Cersei's madness.



I suppose it's even possible that she somehow assumes the LF role in KL after some time? Just throwing that out... I have no real evidence to back that up other than her having learned so much from him.


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More than half of the ideas in that synopsis (which is very old) have been abandoned. The Northmen are fighting each other and the ironborn are attacking the Dreadfort. Seriously? Sansa, Arya and Bran would be as skillful as explained in that quote if there were a 5-year gap where they can train all those skills. Dany’s arc might have worked too but not Jon Snow.



Therefore, GRRM had to rework his story. Without the 5-year training, Bran can’t be a super-powerful greenseer nor Arya can be a top class assassin nor Sansa can become an influential player. They are too young for these and there is not enough time to work out that stuff.



I think instead of that ancient synopsis, you should read the following detailed interview which is quite recent. GRRM tells how he had to abandon the 5-year gap and how does that effect his story. Since he started the characters too young and the time cannot flow as fast as he had planned, I think the characters will end up younger than he had planned. GRRM plainly says he cannot install a software package like Game of Thrones, Advanced Assassination, Greensight etc. to his characters as it happens in Matrix.



Therefore, I don’t take that synopsis seriously. Following interview is a must-read for everyone.




I'm obsessed with the five-year gap you originally planned in the middle of the series. How would that have happened?


Originally, there was not supposed to be any gap. There was just supposed to be a passage of time, as the book went forward. My original concept back in 1991 was, I would start with these characters as children, and they would get older. If you pick up Arya at eight, the second chapter would be a couple months later, and she would be eight and a half and [then] she'd be nine. [This would happen] all within the space of a book.


But when I actually got into writing them, the events have a certain momentum. So you write a chapter and then in your next chapter, it can't be six months later, because something's going to happen the next day. So you have to write what happens the next day, and then you have to write what happens the week after that. And the news gets to some other place.


And pretty soon, you've written hundreds of pages and a week has passed, instead of the six months, or the year, that you wanted to pass. So you end a book, and you've had a tremendous amount of events — but they've taken place over a short time frame and the eight-year-old kid is still eight years old.


So that really took hold of me for the first three books. When it became apparent that that had taken hold of me, I came up with the idea of the five-year gap. "Time is not passing here as I want it to pass, so I will jump forward five years in time." And I will come back to these characters when they're a little more grown up. And that is what I tried to do when I started writing Feast for Crows. So [the gap] would have come after A Storm of Swords and beforeFeast for Crows.


But what I soon discovered — and I struggled with this for a year — [the gap] worked well with some characters like Arya — who at end the of Storm of Swords has taken off for Braavos. You can come back five years later, and she has had five years of training and all that. Or Bran, who was taken in by the Children of the Forest and the green ceremony, [so you could] come back to him five years later. That’s good. Works for him.


Other characters, it didn’t work at all. I'm writing the Cersei chapters in King's Landing, and saying, "Well yeah, in five years, six different guys have served as Hand and there was this conspiracy four years ago, and this thing happened three years ago." And I'm presenting all of this in flashbacks, and that wasn't working. The other alternative was [that] nothing happened in those five years, which seemed anticlimactic.


The Jon Snow stuff was even worse, because at the end of Storm he gets elected Lord Commander. I'm picking up there, and writing "Well five years ago, I was elected Lord Commander. Nothing much has happened since then, but now things are starting to happen again." I finally, after a year, said "I can't make this work."


Was it going to be five years and then Winter was going to arrive or was it going to be during Winter?


No, it wasn’t going to be during Winter. The arrival of Winter which would have been on stage.


So, like another five years of Fall?


Yeah. There is plenty of precedent for that [in] the way I set up the series. Summer lasted ten years. A five-year Fall [is] nothing much.


I know that some of the stuff you wrote to take place after the five-year gap is in the books including Dance with Dragons.


Dance with Dragons and Feast for Crows. Some of it is in there. Some of it I've reworked. A version of it is in there, but not the same version is in there. Some of it is just out. It just didn't work.


So you had to have change it, so that Arya was not as seasoned, Jon Snow not as experienced as lord commander.


I know not all my readers are happy with that, but I think I made the right decision.


The readers are unhappy with leaving out the five-year gap?


Well no, some of the storylines from Feast for Crows. I get complaints sometimes that nothing happens — but they're defining "nothing," I think, differently than I am. I don't think it all has to battles and sword fights and assassinations. Character development and [people] changing is good, and there are some tough things in there that I think a lot of writers skip over. I'm glad I didn't skip over these things.


[For example], things that Arya is learning. The things Bran is learning. Learning is not inherently an interesting thing to write about. It's not an easy thing to write about. In the movies, they always handle it with a montage. Rocky can't run very fast. He can't catch the chicken. But then you do a montage, and you cut a lot of images together, and now only a minute later in the film, Rocky is really strong and he is catching the chicken.


It’s a lot harder [in real life]. Sometimes in my own life, I wish I could play a montage of my life. I want to get in shape now. So let’s do a montage, and boom — I'll be fifty pounds lighter and in good shape, and it will only take me a minute with some montage of me lifting weights and running, shoving away the steak and having a salad. But of course in real life, you don't get to montage. You have to go through it day by day.


And that has been interesting, you know. Jon Snow as Lord Commander. Dany as Queen, struggling with rule. So many books don't do that. There is a sense when you're writing something in high fantasy, you're in a dialogue with all the other high fantasy writers that have written. And there is always this presumption that if you are a good man, you will be a good king. [Like] Tolkien — in Return of the King, Aragorn comes back and becomes king, and then [we read that] "he ruled wisely for three hundred years." Okay, fine. It is easy to write that sentence, “He ruled wisely”.


What does that mean, he ruled wisely? What were his tax policies? What did he do when two lords were making war on each other? Or barbarians were coming in from the North? What was his immigration policy? What about equal rights for Orcs? I mean did he just pursue a genocidal policy, "Let’s kill all these fucking Orcs who are still left over"? Or did he try to redeem them? You never actually see the nitty-gritty of ruling.


I guess there is an element of fantasy readers that don't want to see that. I find that fascinating. Seeing someone like Dany actually trying to deal with the vestments of being a queen and getting factions and guilds and [managing the] economy. They burnt all the fields [in Meereen]. They've got nothing to import any more. They're not getting any money. I find this stuff interesting. And fortunately, enough of my readers who love the books do as well.




Returning to KL is not a step back or a bad narrative. We have Harrion Karstark and Wylis Manderly, who were captured, saved and recaptured by treachery. Wylis is sent back to Harrenhal as a prisoner and Harrion is sent to Maidenpool.



I think the news of the defeat of the Boltons and the Freys; Rickon Stark being installed to Winterfell and the White Harbour declaring for Stannis will be spread. After killing LF, Sansa might trust Shadrich and his knights to take her back to White Harbour. But they will betray her and sell her to Cersei.



Sansa will struggle to survive in the KL with the knowledge and skill she obtained so far. This time she will not be a silly girl.



GRRM likes to have his characters face challenge after challenge. We see how he screwed Jon and Dany in ADwD. Why should he send Sansa to North and spare her?



As for different paths leading to the same castle, why should we think that the castle is Winterfell? In fact, Arya was going to the RK. Ned had wanted to take Jon to the KL as well and the castle Arya and Jon were talking about was the RK. I think that bit of foreshadowing makes sense if Arya and Sansa meets again in the RK.


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Returning to KL is not a step back or a bad narrative. We have Harrion Karstark and Wylis Manderly, who were captured, saved and recaptured by treachery. Wylis is sent back to Harrenhal as a prisoner and Harrion is sent to Maidenpool.

Are you seriously comparing one of 5 most important POV characters in the books, with two characters whom even minor role would be reaching? Simply, your examples are not comparable. What would be, if for instance, Bran was returned to Winterfell by Sam and Jon. The narrative-wise, Sansa's return to KL would make no sense.

Sansa will struggle to survive in the KL with the knowledge and skill she obtained so far. This time she will not be a silly girl.

No, she won't be a silly girl, but she will be a prisoner or dead. Unless you want to argue that Cersei will spare her out of kindness of her heart. Simply, again, it is step back that makes no sense.

GRRM likes to have his characters face challenge after challenge. We see how he screwed Jon and Dany in ADwD. Why should he send Sansa to North and spare her?

Perhaps you have forgotten, but North would be a challenge for anyone. Between wildlings, Stannis and Others, there are more than enough challenges for anyone. Add Littlefinger and Vale plot before that, and you have rather challenging path of Sansa.

As for different paths leading to the same castle, why should we think that the castle is Winterfell? In fact, Arya was going to the RK. Ned had wanted to take Jon to the KL as well and the castle Arya and Jon were talking about was the RK. I think that bit of foreshadowing makes sense if Arya and Sansa meets again in the RK.

They were saying goodbyes, and they weren't discussing any castle in particular, but given that both Sansa and Arya spent significant portion of their storylines going home to Winterfell, and Jon actually is connected with it now, that Rickon's path is also leading there, with the note that there must always be Stark in Winterfell, it is safe to assume that reunion of Stark family would be in Winterfell.

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Are you seriously comparing one of 5 most important POV characters in the books, with two characters whom even minor role would be reaching? Simply, your examples are not comparable. What would be, if for instance, Bran was returned to Winterfell by Sam and Jon. The narrative-wise, Sansa's return to KL would make no sense.

Going to KL is not a step back because everything will be changed when she gets there. And if you are looking for a similar major POV, we have Dany. She left Pentos as a weak and frightened girl but she will return with steel and fire.

No, she won't be a silly girl, but she will be a prisoner or dead. Unless you want to argue that Cersei will spare her out of kindness of her heart. Simply, again, it is step back that makes no sense.

I don't think what you suggest is that simple. There will be a lot of new dynamics in the KL when Sansa gets there. There will be Sandsnakes who will know the deception at once upon the sight of UnGregor. Since they are Sandsnakes, they will want to have revenge. Tyrells will fall from grace after Margaery loses her trial and they spill blood by fighting the Faith Militant. Cersei will suspect the Tyrells like hell especially after the deaths of Kevan and Pycelle. I think Sansa has a chance to prove her innocence and put the blame on the Tyrells. Besides, Sansa is always too valuable to be killed.

I also think that Sansa will “move” the Sandsnakes into killing Tommen. This will be a rematch of Lady being executed unjustly for the crime of Nymeria by the will of Cersei. Sansa will get Tommen killed (unjustly) for the crimes Joffrey (and Cersei) committed. There is a certain parallel between Tommen and Lady.

Perhaps you have forgotten, but North would be a challenge for anyone. Between wildlings, Stannis and Others, there are more than enough challenges for anyone. Add Littlefinger and Vale plot before that, and you have rather challenging path of Sansa.

Perhaps you have forgotten that Sansa has no skill to deal with these problems. These are Jon’s and Bran’s problems.

Sansa has no business in North. She has no skill to be helpful in the problems of the North. Her story is tied to the South and she has some unfinished business which would be bad narrative if she did not tie them up one way or another.

They were saying goodbyes, and they weren't discussing any castle in particular, but given that both Sansa and Arya spent significant portion of their storylines going home to Winterfell, and Jon actually is connected with it now, that Rickon's path is also leading there, with the note that there must always be Stark in Winterfell, it is safe to assume that reunion of Stark family would be in Winterfell.

This may be true, but I don’t think the Starks will reunite before the series is very close to the end.

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Sansa will not be going back to KL, that ship has literally (you like that) sailed. LF of course will try to maintain something with Sansa. LF sees Cat when he looks at Sansa and the opportunity he never had. LF ultimate end game will bet to kill SR, marry sansa to HTH, Be rid of HTH once Sansa is with child, and finally try to take Sansa for himself. Once Sansa is presumably with child her value for the southron nobility drops. However for the north and especially the Vale it will be mildly the same this is when, Lf will step in. However LF will not get the opportunity for this plan to come to fruition. Sansa will be rid of him long before. Ultimately LF has outlived his purpose and that was to transport Sansa away to not only a secure and defensible location but also giving her a place to rule from where women or highborn Ladies can be accepted. The Vale suffered Lysa for a long time. Also we have the fact that most LF has aready slipped revealing his plans to Sansa, and secondary plans to the lords of the vale. Once LF schools Sansa his arc as the instructor, will be at its zenith, when he tries to force himself on Sansa his character will be exposed as an antagonist and lf will come to his end.


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Going to KL is not a step back because everything will be changed when she gets there. And if you are looking for a similar major POV, we have Dany. She left Pentos as a weak and frightened girl but she will return with steel and fire.

She will return to Pentos? Possibly, but Pentos is not her destination. Not to mention that Daenerys' entire narrative had the Quaithe factor. I am sorry, but comparing Dany going west from Meereen, or even returning to Vaes Dothrak is not as same as return of Sansa to KL. Simply, she would be a prisoner and/or be executed. I don't see any sort of her getting out of it if she gets there.

I don't think what you suggest is that simple. There will be a lot of new dynamics in the KL when Sansa gets there. There will be Sandsnakes who will know the deception at once upon the sight of UnGregor. Since they are Sandsnakes, they will want to have revenge. Tyrells will fall from grace after Margaery loses her trial and they spill blood by fighting the Faith Militant. Cersei will suspect the Tyrells like hell especially after the deaths of Kevan and Pycelle. I think Sansa has a chance to prove her innocence and put the blame on the Tyrells. Besides, Sansa is always too valuable to be killed.

Have I missed anything? Where this certainty comes from? Margaery will lose a trial, Sand snakes will want revenge because they will see UnGregor? Sansa won't have a chance to prove anything because she will be trialed and killed. She has no value to Cersei given that she also wants Tyrion dead. Your post is full of definitive statements that I find no textual basis. Especially given that High Septon called case against Margaery extremely weak.

I also think that Sansa will “move” the Sandsnakes into killing Tommen. This will be a rematch of Lady being executed unjustly for the crime of Nymeria by the will of Cersei. Sansa will get Tommen killed (unjustly) for the crimes Joffrey (and Cersei) committed. There is a certain parallel between Tommen and Lady.

The same Sansa who said, and I quote, "I wouldn't mind marrying Tommen"? No. And parallel between Tommen and Lady? I would like to hear about this.

Perhaps you have forgotten that Sansa has no skill to deal with these problems. These are Jon’s and Bran’s problems.

When it comes to Sansa's arc, there are so few things I have forgotten. These are not just Jon's and Bran's problems. If Jon asks Vale for help, as he intended, Sansa will be privy to situation in the North and naturally she will try to help her brother as much as she can. The question remains how she will do it, but I do believe that supported by Vale lords, Sansa has a chance to help Jon in his quest

Sansa has no business in North. She has no skill to be helpful in the problems of the North. Her story is tied to the South and she has some unfinished business which would be bad narrative if she did not tie them up one way or another.

Sansa has no business in the North? Her home? Really, that is the big argument for her going back to KL as some player, who according to you will kill Tommen. I am sorry, but her story has been connected to the North. She tried to get back home, her story is filled with Northern motifs, she is married because of her connection with North. Saying she has no business in North is gross oversimplification of her arc, and I do tend to believe that characters in Westeros are not geographically chained. What happens in Essos with Dany at some point would influence Westeros, as much as events in Westeros influenced Dany and Aegon. Sansa has some unfinished business with Tyrion, that's all. I simply don't see the argument you try to push forward in order to say that she has no business in the North, again, her homeland.

All and all, the more you talk about this, the less inclined I am to believe in it happening. What started as semi-reasonable theory of Sansa being whisked away to KL, turned into rather crackpot and IMHO a theory that is in contrition with Sansa's narrative and her storyline. This simply doesn't work for me.

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Nice thread :cheers:



I agree that the Mad Mouse will take her away, but I think it will be to Varys. I think it's foreshadowed by the fact that Varys and IIIyrio used to call their spies "Little Mice" back in Pentos



And I agree with Mladen. I just don't see her going back to KL, much less in the position of a captive again. It's not just because it's repetitive (Martin can be repetitive a lot. Hell, Jaime has laid siege to Riverrun twice in the series!) but it's also not the direction I see her arc going. The whole thing with the snow castle suggests, IMO, that she's ready to go back North and that she had enough of southron politics, especially of KL. When LF first took her away she said that it was like running away from a seemingly endless nightmare.



I mean, I could maybe see her going back to KL, but in a whole different position, say as betrothed to Aegon or something like that, not under Cersei's thumb again (besides, I think Cersei's days in KL are numbered, anyway)



I also take issue with this idea that Sansa is going to geld and/or kill LF. That's not how she rolls, that's Arya's turf. It would be quite an abrupt move for her at this point, not to mention out of character. And it goes against the "lessons" LF has been teaching her, especially the one about keeping her hands clean.

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“A vain young man, and greedy. Viserys lusted for his father’s throne, but he lusted for Daenerys too, and was loath to give her up. The night before the princess wed he tried to steal into her bed, insisting that if he could not have her hand, he would claim her maidenhead. Had I not taken the precaution of posting guards upon her door, Viserys might have undone years of planning.”



Viserys and Lord Baelish are completely different persons. Viserys is stupid, cruel, vain and mad. Petyr isn't.


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I don't see Sansa going back to KL. Cersei and the Lannister's power has diminished greatly. Theres no way they could keep Sansa there without chaining her up and making her a non-factor in the story. She definitely wouldn't' be free to roam KL like she did in her previous imprisonment. If GRRM abandoned anything, it's more likely he ditched any thought of Sansa going back to KL. So much has changed in KL that it wouldn't be a stretch if Shadrich's intentions did too.



GRRM put Sansa in the Vale for a reason. The Vale was largely irrelevant for most of the going ons in these books. Key characters in the Vale should rectify that. Taking Sansa back to KL to be part of court intrigue would be needless when there are already so many players there. With Lysa gone and possible Petyr, too, it would be important to keep Sansa in the Vale. There's still plently for Sansa to sort through there. It was her who said that though the Vale was spared from the war, not everything was great.


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At the final chapter of Alayne, LF’s gropings really got very disturbing.



For you it is disturbing, for me it isn't. I don't consider him a rapist.



Marin said once, he will never describ a rape scene.



excuse me for my english :rolleyes:


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