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From Pawn to Slayer: Foreshadowing Sansa


Mithras

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What you said does not include a plan for revenge.

Sansa: Since I am Sansa, go and avenge me.

Royce: Yes. But how?

Sansa: ?

If you are looking for an avenger, consider LS, who has the skills and the plan. Sansa is not trained to lead an army and fight a war. Just declaring that she is Sansa Stark and doing nothing is what degrades her to the level of GoT.

No one of young Ladys or Queens, at the begining, have the necessary skills, but if she continue to do nothing, she will never learn. Every good king have a council. Baelish have a lot of necessary skills, lords Royce and Corbray has military skills. HtH is a young charismatic knight. Sansa don't need to make a plan for herself, she can have every help she need.

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LF has always been obsessed by Catelyn since they were children. He deeply resents having his advances spurned by her, which he always presumed was due to his low born status. Thus he had devoted his life to changing his status. He did. He became one of the most powerful players in TGOT. When Sansa first arrived in KL, LF mentioned how Sansa looks just like Cat did in her youth, only even more beautiful. On the night of Sansa's escape we learn that LF was responsible for King Joffrey's death to release her from marriage and get Tyrion out of the picture. Also, haven't seen anyone mention that LF framed Sansa by delivering the poison via jewelry he sent her to wear at the wedding. The show made it clear that he intended to frame her when he threw the necklace on Dontos' chest, instead of the water, and asked Sansa, [show] "Who do you think they will blame? You." [books] Aboard the escape ship he tells her, "There was a time when Cat was all I wanted in this world. I dared to dream of the life we might make and the children she would give me... but she was a daughter of Riverrun, and Hoster Tully. Family, Duty, Honor, Sansa. Family, Duty, Honor meant I could never have her hand. But she gave me something finer, a gift a woman can give but once. How could I turn my back upon her daughter?" (creepy, huh?) LF is staking his claim on Sansa, and starting to try and ingratiate her toward him for "saving" her, and now has the means to blackmail her into submission should she give him trouble. And yes, he is obsessed enough to do something irrational and ruin even his own plans.



An aside: One of my new favorite sayings is: " That is soooo Littlefinger!" I love that Sansa is learning TGoT from him. She is going to be transformed. back to the point:



LF's motives become even more clear in the snow castle scene. The snow castle Sansa is building is Winterfell. When LF sees it, he asks Sansa if he may "come into her castle." As we know, the children's game "May I Come Into Your Castle" was often mentioned in adult conversation as a metaphor for sex as was explained in the books. The OP explains this fact well. LF literally does go into the castle and help Sansa build it, and then forces an unwanted kiss on Sansa. He will later extort more kisses from her, even going so far as to try and get her to sit in his lap. (creepy, huh? Sansa is only 13/14) OP also does a great job illuminating this.



Robert Arryn comes out with his doll to play. Sansa tells him not to go into the castle because he is ruining it. SweetRobin demands to come into her castle and demands she open her gates. Sansa refuses and SweetRobin reacts, ' "Tromp, tromp. I'm a giant, I'm a giant," he chanted. "Ho ho ho, open your gates or I'll mash them and smash them." In the adult metaphor of the child's game, (need I say it?) 'opening the gates' refers to a woman opening her legs for penetration. Then SR starts wrecking Sansa's castle with his doll-giant, smashing and bashing, is an overt metaphor for rape. Sansa grabs hold of the doll by the head to stop the destruction, and the "giant's" head rips off. SR then screams hysterically at Sansa for killing the doll-giant.



LF's ancestral sigil is the Titan, a huge stone giant that gaurds Braavos. See OP for why that is important here. LF continues to ingratiate Sansa with his plot to marry her to Harry the Heir in order to make her Lady of the Eyrie and the Vale as well as to gain the forces necessary to take Winterfell back. LF tells Sansa, "So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa... Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That's worth another kiss now, don't you think?"



My predictions are: LF will deliver Winterfell to Sansa by taking the needed provisions and military strength to bolster Stannis' forces. He will help her rebuild Winterfell, just as he did with the snow castle. He will become the giant (Titan) who helps the Stark raise Winterfell. Now, here is why I think LF will die in Winterfell at Sansa's hands.



SR will die by sweet sleep poisoning, and Sansa will realize someday how much power she truly has. LF at some point will try to "enter the castle of the snow maiden by bashing her gates in", and Sansa will either kill him, or have him killed. I believe it will be by decapitation like SR's doll. This idea is not new to many... but when I posted it, my idea was soundly balked at by many other posters. Glad that someone thinks at something similar might happen in TWoW :) Thanks for all the documentation of quotes you did OP. Reader please start there if my post is confusing.


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After backing off from consummating their marriage on the wedding night, I can't see Tyrion raping Sansa at a later date.

This is the same Tyrion that before he was placed on Trial for his life, may think that is wife set him up to take the fall for the murder. Tyrion did remark on Sansa acting strange at the feast and then she disappears. In the Mercy chapter in WOW there is an acting scene that Arya is either being raped and killed as Sansa or Shae. So there is that bit. Tyrion's time in the Vale isn't over and some of the people that directly or indirectly are in the Vale nor are they making it a secret where they are Namely Littlefinger and Tyrion after all is his father's son. So yeah, I can see it, don't forget on the wedding night he was moved to pity. Tyrion after that has slowly started to forgo pity.

The Tyrion that made that promise so many moons ago is not the same Tyrion that would be returning to Westeros and extract vengeance upon those that fucked him over, a Lannister always pays is debt and sorry to say Sansa is in his debt.

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LF has always been obsessed by Catelyn since they were children. He deeply resents having his advances spurned by her, which he always presumed was due to his low born status. Thus he had devoted his life to changing his status. He did. He became one of the most powerful players in TGOT. When Sansa first arrived in KL, LF mentioned how Sansa looks just like Cat did in her youth, only even more beautiful. On the night of Sansa's escape we learn that LF was responsible for King Joffrey's death to release her from marriage and get Tyrion out of the picture. Also, haven't seen anyone mention that LF framed Sansa by delivering the poison via jewelry he sent her to wear at the wedding. The show made it clear that he intended to frame her when he threw the necklace on Dontos' chest, instead of the water, and asked Sansa, [show] "Who do you think they will blame? You." [books] Aboard the escape ship he tells her, "There was a time when Cat was all I wanted in this world. I dared to dream of the life we might make and the children she would give me... but she was a daughter of Riverrun, and Hoster Tully. Family, Duty, Honor, Sansa. Family, Duty, Honor meant I could never have her hand. But she gave me something finer, a gift a woman can give but once. How could I turn my back upon her daughter?" (creepy, huh?) LF is staking his claim on Sansa, and starting to try and ingratiate her toward him for "saving" her, and now has the means to blackmail her into submission should she give him trouble. And yes, he is obsessed enough to do something irrational and ruin even his own plans.

An aside: One of my new favorite sayings is: " That is soooo Littlefinger!" I love that Sansa is learning TGoT from him. She is going to be transformed. back to the point:

LF's motives become even more clear in the snow castle scene. The snow castle Sansa is building is Winterfell. When LF sees it, he asks Sansa if he may "come into her castle." As we know, the children's game "May I Come Into Your Castle" was often mentioned in adult conversation as a metaphor for sex as was explained in the books. The OP explains this fact well. LF literally does go into the castle and help Sansa build it, and then forces an unwanted kiss on Sansa. He will later extort more kisses from her, even going so far as to try and get her to sit in his lap. (creepy, huh? Sansa is only 13/14) OP also does a great job illuminating this.

Robert Arryn comes out with his doll to play. Sansa tells him not to go into the castle because he is ruining it. SweetRobin demands to come into her castle and demands she open her gates. Sansa refuses and SweetRobin reacts, ' "Tromp, tromp. I'm a giant, I'm a giant," he chanted. "Ho ho ho, open your gates or I'll mash them and smash them." In the adult metaphor of the child's game, (need I say it?) 'opening the gates' refers to a woman opening her legs for penetration. Then SR starts wrecking Sansa's castle with his doll-giant, smashing and bashing, is an overt metaphor for rape. Sansa grabs hold of the doll by the head to stop the destruction, and the "giant's" head rips off. SR then screams hysterically at Sansa for killing the doll-giant.

LF's ancestral sigil is the Titan, a huge stone giant that gaurds Braavos. See OP for why that is important here. LF continues to ingratiate Sansa with his plot to marry her to Harry the Heir in order to make her Lady of the Eyrie and the Vale as well as to gain the forces necessary to take Winterfell back. LF tells Sansa, "So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa... Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That's worth another kiss now, don't you think?"

My predictions are: LF will deliver Winterfell to Sansa by taking the needed provisions and military strength to bolster Stannis' forces. He will help her rebuild Winterfell, just as he did with the snow castle. He will become the giant (Titan) who helps the Stark raise Winterfell. Now, here is why I think LF will die in Winterfell at Sansa's hands.

SR will die by sweet sleep poisoning, and Sansa will realize someday how much power she truly has. LF at some point will try to "enter the castle of the snow maiden by bashing her gates in", and Sansa will either kill him, or have him killed. I believe it will be by decapitation. This idea is not new to many... but when I first thought it, it was soundly balked at by many other posters. Glad that someone thinks at something similar might happen in TWoW :) Thanks for all the documentation of quotes you did OP. Reader please start there if my post is confusing.

:agree: I love this version.

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1. What does she know about the Others?

2. What does she know about how to fight them?

3. What does she know about fighting in general?

4. How will she direct the armies of the Vale?

Sansa: Lord Royce, be a good lord and attack the Twins.

Royce: As you command my lady.

What a wonderful story.

The problem with that is that no one argues that will happen.

But how about this story

GRRM: I think I am going to return Sansa to KL, deprive her storyarc of every progress I have built for 4 books just to see her standing there. And in case someone wonders why the crazy Queen who wants her dead, didn't kill her, I will write how she suddenly get to her senses and starts loving the girl.

Your problem is that your story is contrary to the narrative. And that is why some of us believe it will never happen.

Paper Weaver, the only part I disgaree is that I don' think Margaery will lose her trial. The HS himself admits the case is weak, and Margaery is a smart girl, she wouldn't go for a regular trial unless she was sure she could win.

I agree on that. It is rather nonsensical to believe that Marg would lose her trial when the prosecutor thinks she is innocent.

LF will want to run from first base and make a run for home, as they say. Sansa has already faced two situations where the threat of rape was present with Sandor and Marillion. Only this time Lothor wouldn't be able to help as he is in LF's employ. LF would tell her this, because it is the night before her wedding, and for some reason mentions how had things gone differently this would be her wedding to him. Of course, he would mention that Cersei refused him, and to demonstrate his brilliance/ability he mentions how he was able to screw her as a result, basicaly saying "no one ever crosses me." I never said Sansa would be raped, but that there would be an attempt.

Attempt or not, this sounds too specific for my taste. This sounds more like paraphrasing certain chapter than actual theory. I am not certain about rape attempt, but I don't run from possibility of that happening.

Lyanna did run off with Rhaegar willingly, but she became a virtual prisoner at the ToJ as a result. She had to stay there for her own safety. If Aerys demanded the heads of Ned and Robert, Lyanna's brother and betrothed, imagine how he would have treated Lyanna. Sansa would be a prisoner at KL.

Lyanna had agency. She loved Rhaegar, she didn't want to be married to Robert. the comparison is flawed because Sansa here lacks any sort of agency. the comparison between two cases is simply non-existent and frankly I don't understand how you can argue this.

Well there you go, as Quaithe said "to go forward you must go back." We would get to see Sansa prove her mettle at her trial in KL, and see how much she has grown. We could see her making allies in the RK, and she would develop further as a character and her abilities.

No, and you know better. If Sansa is back, the only way, she could be free is not through her ability, but someone saving her. That is what is so narrative-wise against this theory. the trajectory of her arc isn't about being "little bird" all the time. This is not Dany's case, and if you want to use Quaithe as model for what will happen to Sansa, then we are speaking about metaphorical back. She has to face the full extent of what she did wrong, how naive she is. Going back could also mean going back to Winterfell, where it all started to finish the circle of change. This is about growth. Not being locked in some cell, where she will wait for Olenna to confess and/or Sandor to fight for her.

I don't think she would serve much in the second Dance, as I don't see her given any military command. She also wouldn't serve much in WF with all the Northmen there being loyal Stark allies, and Stannis would likely not let her have a hand in matters either.

Sansa certainly won't be given any military command, but that is not the only way how to serve in second Dance. With the Chekhov's arsenal in her warging power thus also spying ability, finding all the millions LF stole from Crown, influence she has over SR and the connections with Vale, North and Riverlands is something she can play on. I doubt that Sansa will be some warrior queen, but someone like Alysanne, "the queen bread" someone who can use kindness and good heart to gather people for her cause and help them, that is something that makes sense. I haven't argue that she will get Harrenhal for the sake of her having the castle, but doing something. And Sansa will do something, make no mistake. Perhaps it won't be as glorious as Dany's or Jon's actions, but she won't be contained to a cell to the end of the series. That makes no sense narrative-wise.

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No, that will be Dany's job. She will promise justice for the RW to gain the swords of the Vale and Riverlands.

It was discussed upthread. Sansa is too precious to kill. Cersei will hate the Tyrells (more) and will not be utter blind to the story of Sansa and a possible confession from Tyrell side will clean Sansa from Joffrey's murder. She might try to use the antagonism between Cersei and Nym to her advantage in her trial (which is what Tyrion wanted to do with Oberyn and succeeded)

I can't even... Not a single bit of this makes sense, unless everyone starts acting very out of character.

Avenging RW is Dany's job? The Dany who hates Starks and rebels, will avenge the death of a Stark rebel? Vale is going to be won over by avenging an event that no Vale lord was involved in?

Sansa is not too precious to kill, they have fArya in the North and Cersei clearly wants Sansa dead in AFFC, and nothing has changed in Sansa's value since then. Cersei was willing to go against Margaery and sacrifice Tyrell support, what would she lose killing Sansa?

Tyrells are going to sacrifice themselves to save Sansa? The Tyrells framed Sansa.

I don't understand the last sentence, are you suggesting Lady Nym will fight UnGregor? It's like you want all the events of ASOS to be rewritten instead of having the plot move forward.

And about the cats and Oysters:

If the cats are a reference to Brienne and Mad Mouse, then Mad Mouse getting the prize aka finding Sansa has already happened, since he was the one who found her.

I think people are giving too much credit to Cersei's mental soundness to even contemplate that she would let Sansa live a day, let alone for a trial,which are now conducted by Faith which is trying to screw Cersei.Sansa is dead the minute she enters RK.

Also which pov character has returned to same place as same person or in same position in whole series. Right. No one.

No tongue twisting by you is taking Sansa back to kings landing.

This. So much. If Cersei came back to power and had Sansa as a prisoner again, it would be the exact same situation than if Sansa had been captured right after PW.

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Lyanna had agency. She loved Rhaegar, she didn't want to be married to Robert. the comparison is flawed because Sansa here lacks any sort of agency. the comparison between two cases is simply non-existent and frankly I don't understand how you can argue this.

So does Sansa in this instance, as she doesn't want to be married to HtH, and she had just killed the LP of the Vale.

No, and you know better. If Sansa is back, the only way, she could be free is not through her ability, but someone saving her. That is what is so narrative-wise against this theory. the trajectory of her arc isn't about being "little bird" all the time. This is not Dany's case, and if you want to use Quaithe as model for what will happen to Sansa, then we are speaking about metaphorical back. She has to face the full extent of what she did wrong, how naive she is. Going back could also mean going back to Winterfell, where it all started to finish the circle of change. This is about growth. Not being locked in some cell, where she will wait for Olenna to confess and/or Sandor to fight for her.

No offense, but the first sentence comes off as a bit patronizing. Sansa saves herself from LF in that instance, and Robert as well. All POV characters get help. Tyrion was saved from death in two instances by Jaime and Pod, Jon was helped by Qhorin and later will be saved from death by BranRaven, Dany was saved from death by Barristan, Jorah, Belwas and later, Drogon, and even Arya was saved from possible death by Sandor and Nymeria. Besides, Sansa may manage to make a few friends at KL with a little base of her own, and it could be because of her actions that Olenna confesses.

Sansa certainly won't be given any military command, but that is not the only way how to serve in second Dance. With the Chekhov's arsenal in her warging power thus also spying ability, finding all the millions LF stole from Crown, influence she has over SR and the connections with Vale, North and Riverlands is something she can play on. I doubt that Sansa will be some warrior queen, but someone like Alysanne, "the queen bread" someone who can use kindness and good heart to gather people for her cause and help them, that is something that makes sense. I haven't argue that she will get Harrenhal for the sake of her having the castle, but doing something. And Sansa will do something, make no mistake. Perhaps it won't be as glorious as Dany's or Jon's actions, but she won't be contained to a cell to the end of the series. That makes no sense narrative-wise.

I doubt LF brought his ledgers with him to the Eyrie. Her connections to the riverlands are weak with House Tully in exile, and none of the riverlords knowing her. The North will rise for Stannis, and not Dany. She wouldn't be confined to a cell, but likely a room for someone of her station.

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More than half of the ideas in that synopsis (which is very old) have been abandoned. The Northmen are fighting each other and the ironborn are attacking the Dreadfort. Seriously? Sansa, Arya and Bran would be as skillful as explained in that quote if there were a 5-year gap where they can train all those skills. Dany’s arc might have worked too but not Jon Snow.

Therefore, GRRM had to rework his story. Without the 5-year training, Bran can’t be a super-powerful greenseer nor Arya can be a top class assassin nor Sansa can become an influential player. They are too young for these and there is not enough time to work out that stuff.

I think instead of that ancient synopsis, you should read the following detailed interview which is quite recent. GRRM tells how he had to abandon the 5-year gap and how does that effect his story. Since he started the characters too young and the time cannot flow as fast as he had planned, I think the characters will end up younger than he had planned. GRRM plainly says he cannot install a software package like Game of Thrones, Advanced Assassination, Greensight etc. to his characters as it happens in Matrix.

Therefore, I don’t take that synopsis seriously. Following interview is a must-read for everyone.

I'm obsessed with the five-year gap you originally planned in the middle of the series. How would that have happened?

Originally, there was not supposed to be any gap. There was just supposed to be a passage of time, as the book went forward. My original concept back in 1991 was, I would start with these characters as children, and they would get older. If you pick up Arya at eight, the second chapter would be a couple months later, and she would be eight and a half and [then] she'd be nine. [This would happen] all within the space of a book.

But when I actually got into writing them, the events have a certain momentum. So you write a chapter and then in your next chapter, it can't be six months later, because something's going to happen the next day. So you have to write what happens the next day, and then you have to write what happens the week after that. And the news gets to some other place.

And pretty soon, you've written hundreds of pages and a week has passed, instead of the six months, or the year, that you wanted to pass. So you end a book, and you've had a tremendous amount of events — but they've taken place over a short time frame and the eight-year-old kid is still eight years old.

So that really took hold of me for the first three books. When it became apparent that that had taken hold of me, I came up with the idea of the five-year gap. "Time is not passing here as I want it to pass, so I will jump forward five years in time." And I will come back to these characters when they're a little more grown up. And that is what I tried to do when I started writing Feast for Crows. So [the gap] would have come after A Storm of Swords and beforeFeast for Crows.

But what I soon discovered — and I struggled with this for a year — [the gap] worked well with some characters like Arya — who at end the of Storm of Swords has taken off for Braavos. You can come back five years later, and she has had five years of training and all that. Or Bran, who was taken in by the Children of the Forest and the green ceremony, [so you could] come back to him five years later. That’s good. Works for him.

Other characters, it didn’t work at all. I'm writing the Cersei chapters in King's Landing, and saying, "Well yeah, in five years, six different guys have served as Hand and there was this conspiracy four years ago, and this thing happened three years ago." And I'm presenting all of this in flashbacks, and that wasn't working. The other alternative was [that] nothing happened in those five years, which seemed anticlimactic.

The Jon Snow stuff was even worse, because at the end of Storm he gets elected Lord Commander. I'm picking up there, and writing "Well five years ago, I was elected Lord Commander. Nothing much has happened since then, but now things are starting to happen again." I finally, after a year, said "I can't make this work."

Was it going to be five years and then Winter was going to arrive or was it going to be during Winter?

No, it wasn’t going to be during Winter. The arrival of Winter which would have been on stage.

So, like another five years of Fall?

Yeah. There is plenty of precedent for that [in] the way I set up the series. Summer lasted ten years. A five-year Fall [is] nothing much.

I know that some of the stuff you wrote to take place after the five-year gap is in the books including Dance with Dragons.

Dance with Dragons and Feast for Crows. Some of it is in there. Some of it I've reworked. A version of it is in there, but not the same version is in there. Some of it is just out. It just didn't work.

So you had to have change it, so that Arya was not as seasoned, Jon Snow not as experienced as lord commander.

I know not all my readers are happy with that, but I think I made the right decision.

The readers are unhappy with leaving out the five-year gap?

Well no, some of the storylines from Feast for Crows. I get complaints sometimes that nothing happens — but they're defining "nothing," I think, differently than I am. I don't think it all has to battles and sword fights and assassinations. Character development and [people] changing is good, and there are some tough things in there that I think a lot of writers skip over. I'm glad I didn't skip over these things.

[For example], things that Arya is learning. The things Bran is learning. Learning is not inherently an interesting thing to write about. It's not an easy thing to write about. In the movies, they always handle it with a montage. Rocky can't run very fast. He can't catch the chicken. But then you do a montage, and you cut a lot of images together, and now only a minute later in the film, Rocky is really strong and he is catching the chicken.

It’s a lot harder [in real life]. Sometimes in my own life, I wish I could play a montage of my life. I want to get in shape now. So let’s do a montage, and boom — I'll be fifty pounds lighter and in good shape, and it will only take me a minute with some montage of me lifting weights and running, shoving away the steak and having a salad. But of course in real life, you don't get to montage. You have to go through it day by day.

And that has been interesting, you know. Jon Snow as Lord Commander. Dany as Queen, struggling with rule. So many books don't do that. There is a sense when you're writing something in high fantasy, you're in a dialogue with all the other high fantasy writers that have written. And there is always this presumption that if you are a good man, you will be a good king. [Like] Tolkien — in Return of the King, Aragorn comes back and becomes king, and then [we read that] "he ruled wisely for three hundred years." Okay, fine. It is easy to write that sentence, “He ruled wisely”.

What does that mean, he ruled wisely? What were his tax policies? What did he do when two lords were making war on each other? Or barbarians were coming in from the North? What was his immigration policy? What about equal rights for Orcs? I mean did he just pursue a genocidal policy, "Let’s kill all these fucking Orcs who are still left over"? Or did he try to redeem them? You never actually see the nitty-gritty of ruling.

I guess there is an element of fantasy readers that don't want to see that. I find that fascinating. Seeing someone like Dany actually trying to deal with the vestments of being a queen and getting factions and guilds and [managing the] economy. They burnt all the fields [in Meereen]. They've got nothing to import any more. They're not getting any money. I find this stuff interesting. And fortunately, enough of my readers who love the books do as well.

Returning to KL is not a step back or a bad narrative. We have Harrion Karstark and Wylis Manderly, who were captured, saved and recaptured by treachery. Wylis is sent back to Harrenhal as a prisoner and Harrion is sent to Maidenpool.

I think the news of the defeat of the Boltons and the Freys; Rickon Stark being installed to Winterfell and the White Harbour declaring for Stannis will be spread. After killing LF, Sansa might trust Shadrich and his knights to take her back to White Harbour. But they will betray her and sell her to Cersei.

Sansa will struggle to survive in the KL with the knowledge and skill she obtained so far. This time she will not be a silly girl.

GRRM likes to have his characters face challenge after challenge. We see how he screwed Jon and Dany in ADwD. Why should he send Sansa to North and spare her?

As for different paths leading to the same castle, why should we think that the castle is Winterfell? In fact, Arya was going to the RK. Ned had wanted to take Jon to the KL as well and the castle Arya and Jon were talking about was the RK. I think that bit of foreshadowing makes sense if Arya and Sansa meets again in the RK.

Comments indicate that that synopsis was released AFTER the five year gap was cut. Did you miss this: "...begins the day after the end of A STORM OF SWORDS"?

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I think people are giving too much credit to Cersei's mental soundness to even contemplate that she would let Sansa live a day, let alone for a trial,which are now conducted by Faith which is trying to screw Cersei.Sansa is dead the minute she enters RK.

Also which pov character has returned to same place as same person or in same position in whole series. Right. No one.

No tongue twisting by you is taking Sansa back to kings landing.

Yep. Cersei is too irrational to not kill her on the spot.

My predictions are: LF will deliver Winterfell to Sansa by taking the needed provisions and military strength to bolster Stannis' forces.

And how does that happen exactly?

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Comments indicate that that synopsis was released AFTER the five year gap was cut. Did you miss this: "...begins the day after the end of A STORM OF SWORDS"?

Whatever the case, this thing dates from some 12 years ago.

Continuing the most ambitious and imaginative epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings The action in Book Four of A Song of Ice and Fire begins the day after the end of A STORM OF SWORDS. While the remaining northern lords war endlessly with each other and the ironmen of the isles attack the Dreadfort, Sansa becomes a skilled player in the game of thrones with Littlefinger as her mentor, Arya a skilled assassin, and Bran a magician and shapeshifter of great power. All seek to gain revenge for the death of their parents and Robb Stark, whose head was cut off and replaced with the head of his direwolf. Valar morghulis. All men must die, and wolves, too. Danerys trains her growing dragons and learns from Barristan the secrets of her father, her brother Rhaegar, and other matters that will culminate at Starfell. And Jon Snow is the nine-hundredth-and-ninety-eighth lord commander of the Night's Watch. The Wall is his. The night is dark, and he has King Stannis to face. The cold wind is rising, and still there are inhuman powers gathering in the north. "

The remaining northern lords war endlessly with each other

As of the end of ADwD, we did not see the remaining Northern lords fighting each other.

the ironmen of the isles attack the Dreadfort

As of the end of ADwD, we did not see the ironmen attacking Dreadfort.

Sansa becomes a skilled player in the game of thrones with Littlefinger as her mentor

As of the end of ADwD, Sansa did not do anything related to the Game of Thrones. Lf does things, explains to Sansa as much as he sees fit and that is it.

Arya a skilled assassin

As of the end of ADwD, we see that Arya gains her first apprenticeship. Killing one man does not make her a skilled assassin.

Bran a magician and shapeshifter of great power

As of the end of ADwD, we do not see that Bran becomes a magician of great power and there is no shapeshifter in ASOIAF. He only saw a single weirwood vision and it is not an easy thing to obtain mastery in this. But he is trying, I give it to him.

Danerys trains her growing dragons and learns from Barristan the secrets of her father, her brother Rhaegar, and other matters that will culminate at Starfell.

Dany imprisons her dragons instead of training them, she shuts her ears to the history lessons of Barristan and the guy is not fit to tell the plain truth (your father was a monster). WTF is Starfell? If that is Starfall, what does Barristan know about the things happened there?

I simply don’t take this synopsis seriously.

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And how does that happen exactly?

That can happen because as LF explained to Sansa, if she marries Harrys the Heir, then she will be Lady of the Vale. She will then be able to muster the troops, and provisions needed to aid Stannis, especially considering no one in the North is expecting any aid from the Vale, their forces untouched so far. It would be a totally surprising change in the balance of power there. AGoT changer :P

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So does Sansa in this instance, as she doesn't want to be married to HtH, and she had just killed the LP of the Vale.

If her agency is not to marry Harry, then KL certainly wouldn't be her destination. As for her killing Lord Protector, well, do you think that Vale lords would be so judgmental about that?

No offense, but the first sentence comes off as a bit patronizing. Sansa saves herself from LF in that instance, and Robert as well. All POV characters get help. Tyrion was saved from death in two instances by Jaime and Pod, Jon was helped by Qhorin and later will be saved from death by BranRaven, Dany was saved from death by Barristan, Jorah, Belwas and later, Drogon, and even Arya was saved from possible death by Sandor and Nymeria. Besides, Sansa may manage to make a few friends at KL with a little base of her own, and it could be because of her actions that Olenna confesses.

I am never patronizing when discussing things with you, and I apologize if it came that way. You do know I believe you are wrong, and I do believe that based on the narrative trajectory of Sansa's arc. You have argued this many times with me and many others, and you know how many of us feel about that. But, never mind that. I am not against Sansa being saved, as she was throughout the series, but the scenario that is here suggested simply takes all the agency from her. This scenario basically returns the deconstruction of princess in the tower motif back from where it started. Thing is that Sansa's arc is about breaking the model of pretty princess and becoming someone independent. That is one of the big, recurring motifs in her story. Sitting in KL indefinitely isn't something her story is heading. And since we are in comparison, it would be like Dany returning to Astapor to rule until the end of her days, or Arya returning to Winterfell and be with some guy as she was supposed to be in KL, Jon being just the brother of NW. Simply, this is a series in which we don't go back unless there is a clear distinction between first and second occurrence. As I said, every time a character returns to the point where they were, it is never the same. This scenario suggests that. And that is why I believe it is in contrition with Sansa's narrative. As I also believe, her becoming Queen of everything under the Sun is contrary to narrative. As I believe that her becoming warrior princess is also against narrative. And narrative is important. That is why we know Jon is not dead, Dany will head Westeros, Aegon is fake etc, etc, etc. Narrative counts and it simply is against this scenario.

I doubt LF brought his ledgers with him to the Eyrie. Her connections to the riverlands are weak with House Tully in exile, and none of the riverlords knowing her. The North will rise for Stannis, and not Dany. She wouldn't be confined to a cell, but likely a room for someone of her station.

Like Tyrion was? No. If she is brought back to KL, she would be either dead or imprisoned. Not to mention that Cersei wants her dead and that she is a bit irrational about her.

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Cersei also fears Stannis above else. Sansa's claim to Winterfell is better than fArya. With Rickon&Bran are assumed to be dead, she might think that they found some feigned boy to be passed as Rickon (it will be a popular theme after the appearance of fAegon). In this case, Sansa becomes the rightful heir of Winterfell. In any case, as long as Cersei keeps her, Stannis cannot attack the KL with his Northmen. She kept Redwyne twins as hostages, that is why the Redwyne Fleet could not join Renly. After the murder of Kevan and Pycelle, Cersei will hate the Tyrells even more and I bet Varys will do everything to fuel her paranoia about the Tyrells. I really can't see Cersei killing Sansa at first sight. This is wrong with respect to the latest events.


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If her agency is not to marry Harry, then KL certainly wouldn't be her destination. As for her killing Lord Protector, well, do you think that Vale lords would be so judgmental about that?

Sansa had just killed the LP of the Vale, who had plenty of friends, including Nestor Royce, and she would have been known to lie before by revealing herself to be Alayne and saying LF killed Lysa. Besides, there is suspicion cast on her for involvement in Joffrey's death.

I am never patronizing when discussing things with you, and I apologize if it came that way. You do know I believe you are wrong, and I do believe that based on the narrative trajectory of Sansa's arc. You have argued this many times with me and many others, and you know how many of us feel about that. But, never mind that. I am not against Sansa being saved, as she was throughout the series, but the scenario that is here suggested simply takes all the agency from her. This scenario basically returns the deconstruction of princess in the tower motif back from where it started. Thing is that Sansa's arc is about breaking the model of pretty princess and becoming someone independent. That is one of the big, recurring motifs in her story. Sitting in KL indefinitely isn't something her story is heading. And since we are in comparison, it would be like Dany returning to Astapor to rule until the end of her days, or Arya returning to Winterfell and be with some guy as she was supposed to be in KL, Jon being just the brother of NW. Simply, this is a series in which we don't go back unless there is a clear distinction between first and second occurrence. As I said, every time a character returns to the point where they were, it is never the same. This scenario suggests that. And that is why I believe it is in contrition with Sansa's narrative. As I also believe, her becoming Queen of everything under the Sun is contrary to narrative. As I believe that her becoming warrior princess is also against narrative. And narrative is important. That is why we know Jon is not dead, Dany will head Westeros, Aegon is fake etc, etc, etc. Narrative counts and it simply is against this scenario.

Dany didn't spend an entire book in Astapor while Sansa spent three in KL. Dany is back in the Dothraki Sea where she lost her husband, son and khalasar and going back to VD where she lost her brother to become the StMtW and unite the khalasars. Theon returned to WF after ACoK where he lost his freedom and guilt to save Jeyne. Jaime returned to the riverlands where he suffered defeat and lost his hand, and took Riverrun where he had failed before, bloodlessly, and subdued Raventree Hall along with gaining a new perspective on Cersei. Tyrion will return to the Vale where he was kidnapped and imprisoned in the sky cells, and got a sham trial and nearly lost his life to lead the Vale in the second Dance. Arya will return to KL where she saw her father lose his head and her men killed to likely pose as one of Varys little birds, and to return to the riverlands with then horrors she saw and reunite with Nymeria. Characters are returning to the places where they had the worst experiences in the series to further their character development, and show the new skills and perspective they acquired as well as the resolve. That is what is meant by "to go forward you must go back."

Like Tyrion was? No. If she is brought back to KL, she would be either dead or imprisoned. Not to mention that Cersei wants her dead and that she is a bit irrational about her.

Except Tyrion still got a trial, and Sansa likely would. The Tyrells would insist.

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Sansa had just killed the LP of the Vale, who had plenty of friends, including Nestor Royce, and she would have been known to lie before by revealing herself to be Alayne and saying LF killed Lysa. Besides, there is suspicion cast on her for involvement in Joffrey's death.

Since I do believe that LF is not loved by many in the Vale, and that lords are working on his downfall, I wouldn't be so sure that they would harm her if she reveals to them. Especially Royces.

Dany didn't spend an entire book in Astapor while Sansa spent three in KL. Dany is back in the Dothraki Sea where she lost her husband, son and khalasar and going back to VD where she lost her brother to become the StMtW and unite the khalasars. Theon returned to WF after ACoK where he lost his freedom and guilt to save Jeyne. Jaime returned to the riverlands where he suffered defeat and lost his hand, and took Riverrun where he had failed before, bloodlessly, and subdued Raventree Hall along with gaining a new perspective on Cersei. Tyrion will return to the Vale where he was kidnapped and imprisoned in the sky cells, and got a sham trial and nearly lost his life to lead the Vale in the second Dance. Arya will return to KL where she saw her father lose his head and her men killed to likely pose as one of Varys little birds, and to return to the riverlands with then horrors she saw and reunite with Nymeria. Characters are returning to the places where they had the worst experiences in the series to further their character development, and show the new skills and perspective they acquired as well as the resolve.

But all your examples can't parallel this case. AGOT Dany and TWOW Dany are not the same, Theon in AGOT and ACOK is not the same and so on and on. What is suggested by this scenario is that Sansa is being held captive again, without any sort of agency, without even possibility to use what she learnt. She would be, what, locked up and trialed? Basically this is return to the same arc of ACOK and ASOS. The very same arc. That is the problem with this, and that is why it is wrong to compare the cases you mentioned with this. Things are changing, heck, even the subjects are changed of the cases you listed. Here, everything is the same. That is why it is repetitive, that is why it is against Sansa's narrative. Her being back in KL is simply something that we have seen happening. And how that will resolve? The same way it resolved the last time? This case is definition of repetitiveness. And I am sorry, but I honestly can't see GRRM pulling something like that. When he does. he makes sure that things have changed. Returning Sansa to KL brings to no change.

Except Tyrion still got a trial, and Sansa likely would. The Tyrells would insist.

Tyrion got his trial and he was found guilty. "One body, one soul...", remember?

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Cersei also fears Stannis above else. Sansa's claim to Winterfell is better than fArya. With Rickon&Bran are assumed to be dead, she might think that they found some feigned boy to be passed as Rickon (it will be a popular theme after the appearance of fAegon). In this case, Sansa becomes the rightful heir of Winterfell. In any case, as long as Cersei keeps her, Stannis cannot attack the KL with his Northmen. She kept Redwyne twins as hostages, that is why the Redwyne Fleet could not join Renly. After the murder of Kevan and Pycelle, Cersei will hate the Tyrells even more and I bet Varys will do everything to fuel her paranoia about the Tyrells. I really can't see Cersei killing Sansa at first sight. This is wrong with respect to the latest events.

Stannis who is stuck in Snow im North starving with his troops?

Sansa goes to KL, Cersei kills her strengthening fArya's claim to North. Keeping Sansa alive also means keeping Tyrion's claim to North alive. You really think Cersei is going to do that? And before you suggest it High Septon wont annul the marriage of someone accused and found guilty of Regicide (both Tyrion and Sansa).

Any way situation in KL is explosive enough for Cersei to ignore any shit that hits the fan in North. Stannis first has to finish Bolton & Freys in North then sort out his situation with Northern lords who can very well tell him to go bugger himself with Lightbringer. Stannis is long way from attacking KL again. If by some good luck Bolton Frey allince is done he will still have to cross Twins, Trident, Harrenhal and whole eastern part of Riverlands to get to KL. Just assuming something doesnt make him.

Same Varys will help fuel Cersei's paranoia whom she unwittingly and rightly suspects of helping Tyrion escape resulting in Tywin's death. I am calling your theory Crackpot with more holes than Swiss Cheese.

Have you even read all Sansa chapters and tried to understand her story arc ??????

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Since I do believe that LF is not loved by many in the Vale, and that lords are working on his downfall, I wouldn't be so sure that they would harm her if she reveals to them. Especially Royces.

LF still has a few allies in the Vale including the Waynwoods who would be present.

But all your examples can't parallel this case. AGOT Dany and TWOW Dany are not the same, Theon in AGOT and ACOK is not the same and so on and on. What is suggested by this scenario is that Sansa is being held captive again, without any sort of agency, without even possibility to use what she learnt. She would be, what, locked up and trialed? Basically this is return to the same arc of ACOK and ASOS. The very same arc. That is the problem with this, and that is why it is wrong to compare the cases you mentioned with this. Things are changing, heck, even the subjects are changed of the cases you listed. Here, everything is the same. That is why it is repetitive, that is why it is against Sansa's narrative. Her being back in KL is simply something that we have seen happening. And how that will resolve? The same way it resolved the last time? This case is definition of repetitiveness. And I am sorry, but I honestly can't see GRRM pulling something like that. When he does. he makes sure that things have changed. Returning Sansa to KL brings to no change.

Likewise, AGoT Sansa and TWoW Sansa aren't the same either. What is to say she won't be able to use her skills in this one? She can make allies with the Tyrell girls who would likely be in the same situation as her, and a few other people, possibly including a reformed Jaime, and likely pick up on conversation form servants to gather info. It wouldn't be the same arc as this is a different Sansa, a different Cersei and Jaime, and she would have allies. It would be resolved in the way I described in the Rundown thread.

Tyrion got his trial and he was found guilty. "One body, one soul...", remember?

Yet, she was never present at Tyrion's trial, and the Tyrells would insist on giving her a trial to present evidence. The Tyrells originally planned to have her acquitted or declared innocent had LF not taken her away.

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LF still has a few allies in the Vale including the Waynwoods who would be present.

I am not sure that LF has any allies in Vale. Even Corbray or Waynwood are suspicious to me.

Likewise, AGoT Sansa and TWoW Sansa aren't the same either. What is to say she won't be able to use her skills in this one? She can make allies with the Tyrell girls who would likely be in the same situation as her, and a few other people, possibly including a reformed Jaime, and likely pick up on conversation form servants to gather info. It wouldn't be the same arc as this is a different Sansa, a different Cersei and Jaime, and she would have allies. It would be resolved in the way I described in the Rundown thread.

The thing is that we would return to the same point where she was. It wouldn't be the new Sansa, it would be just "been there, done that" Sansa. Sansa being locked in the tower, being hostage to Cersei, that is already seen and done. I am sorry, but this theory, no matter how good imagined it is, simply is against what I believe is in narrative of Sansa's arc. It is against some very strong rules of Martin's writings. I simply don't see it. It's the same as theory of her becoming Queen of everything under the Sun. We can create the logical chain of events, but the narrative is simply against it.

Yet, she was never present at Tyrion's trial, and the Tyrells would insist on giving her a trial to present evidence. The Tyrells originally planned to have her acquitted or declared innocent had LF not taken her away.

Possibly, but not likely... Since I doubt that she will be in that position, I see no point in discussing what might Tyrells do. Especially given the fact that I believe that Sansa wouldn't live long enough if Cersei gets her.

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No one of young Ladys or Queens, at the begining, have the necessary skills, but if she continue to do nothing, she will never learn. Evry good king have a council. Baelish have a lot of necessary skills, lords Royce and Corbray has military skills. HtH is a young charismatic knight. Sansa don't need to make a plan for herself, she can have every help she need.

And by that you mean a lot of people telling her what to do, how to deploy her forces. As she doesn't know better she has to go by trust. You are putting all your soldiers under the command of someone else. Who are they loyal to? Think about how Stannis used the Royal Navy. There is a reason rulers command, why they fight up front, so people can see them, to grow loyalty and respect. Their commander is leading them to victory.

Give you army to someone like Bolton for example, he sends the loyal to die first and then turns on you! You lead yourself, you make decisions yourself.

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And by that you mean a lot of people telling her what to do, how to deploy her forces. As she doesn't know better she has to go by trust. You are putting all your soldiers under the command of someone else. Who are they loyal to? Think about how Stannis used the Royal Navy. There is a reason rulers command, why they fight up front, so people can see them, to grow loyalty and respect. Their commander is leading them to victory.

Give you army to someone like Bolton for example, he sends the loyal to die first and then turns on you! You lead yourself, you make decisions yourself.

I agree with you in part and dissent in part. I think your right to the the extent that Sansa would have to be assertive and not let herself be pushed around.
But, I don't think a political leader always has to lead troops themselves to be effective. The Frederick The Greats, Trajans, and Napoleons have been relatively rare.
And learning how to command troops in the field, isn't something you learn how to do in a year or two. And if you do take field command, you still always have to rely on subordinates.
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