From Pawn to Slayer: Foreshadowing Sansa

[Uldra I]

You mean LF will set it up to look like a suicide? Sure, I guess that could work just as well or maybe better than the accident. :) We will see what the show has to say about it soon! :drool:

Gonna Razz you if I'm right. heehee :P

ETA: I didn't mean SR would die in this episode. was responding to a post saying that the Vale will come to think Sansa is guilty of all the murders in the future... Joff, SR, and Lysa.

Kudos to you, Fire Eater :bowdown: They went the suicide route. Guess you owe me a razzing :P

Sansa's lies to protect Baelish really shocked me though. Telling mostly the truth and even revealing her true identity. Just never expected those twists at all. The show is setting up an interesting dynamic between Sansa and LF going forward. Wonder if they'll be going into some TWoW territory on Sansa's arc in season 5.

[Uldra I]

Especially since we know Pycelle didn't keep to his vow of celibacy when we found him bedding one of his young servants.

She will be saying LF was the one who killed Lysa, not Marillion. Nestor Royce would be inclined to disbelieve her, and it would be contradicting the story the Vale lords heard and accepted. She will proven herself to have lied before. Of course, since she was in on it, they would no doubt suspect that she had something to do with Lysa's death given that she was there when it happened. She disappeared the night of Joffrey's death as well. It would not be too far for some to suspect that she killed Joffrey for vengeance for Ned's death and/or rejection for Margaery being replaced as Joffrey's queen, then killed off Lysa and then LF, while currying favor with Lord Robert Arryn to take control of the Eyrie and the Vale.

Sorry for the double post, just wanted to quote you in the post above, and somehow missed it. This way you know you weren't razzed :D

[Fire Eater]

"I did fight upon he Blackwater, but one the losing side. My ransom ruined me."

Ser Shadrich could tell Sansa that he fought for Stannis in the BoBW, and that by taking her North he would be serving Stannis. He could even say he does it in hopes of a reward from Stannis if Sansa grows suspicious.

[Mithras]

No. LF asks that Sansa. We previously got information that it is Winterfell. And it is Winterfell. The snow castle doesn't represent maidenhead of Sansa, as her identity and nostalgia. But, since this is ASOIAF, those sweet tender moment are bound to get less noble, and that is what LF serves for. To remind us that Sansa is not safe and that danger is still there.

That was when the golden-haired rogue called Lann the Clever appeared from out of the east. Some say he was an Andal adventurer from across the narrow sea, though this was millennia before the coming of the Andals to Westeros. Regardless of his origins, the tales agree that somehow Lann the Clever winkled the Casterlys out of their Rock and took it for his own.

The precise method by which he accomplished this remains a matter of conjecture. In the most common version of the tale, Lann discovered a secret way inside the Rock, a cleft so narrow that he had to strip off his clothes and coat himself with butter in order to squeeze through. Once inside, however, he began to work his mischief, whispering threats in the ears of sleeping Casterlys, howling from the darkness like a demon, stealing treasures from one brother to plant in the bedchamber of another, rigging sundry snares and deadfalls. By such methods he set the Casterlys at odds with one another and convinced them that the Rock was haunted by some fell creature that would never let them live in peace.

Other tellers prefer other versions of the tale. In one, Lann uses the cleft to fill the Rock with mice, rats, and other vermin, thereby driving out the Casterlys. In another, he smuggles a pride of lions inside, and Lord Casterly and his sons are all devoured, after which Lann claims his lordship’s wife and daughters for himself. The bawdiest of the stories has Lann stealing in night after night to have his way with the Casterly maidens whilst they sleep. In nine months time, these maids all give birth to golden-haired children whilst still insisting they had never had carnal knowledge of a man.

The last tale, ribald as it is, has certain intriguing aspects that might hint at the truth of what occurred. It is Archmaester Perestan’s belief that Lann was a retainer of some sort in service to Lord Casterly (perhaps a household guard), who impregnated his lordship’s daughter (or daughters, though that seems less likely), and persuaded her father to give him the girl’s hand in marriage. If indeed this was what occurred, assuming (as we must) that Lord Casterly had no trueborn sons, then in the natural course of events the Rock would have passed to the daughter, and hence to Lann, upon the father’s death.

A clever man coming from the east, stripping his clothes off in order to penetrate into the "Casterly Rock" through a "narrow cleft" by using some "lubricant". The erotic undertone here is obvious. Yandel goes further and also explains the nugget of truth in this tale. The truth is that the Casterlys went extinct in the male line and Lann managed to impregnate the last female Casterly. The symbolism of this myth equates the Casterly Rock to the last female Casterly and Lann won the prize by “penetrating” into the Casterly Rock through a “narrow cleft”.

All these versions of how Lann acquired the Casterly Rock are essentially the same. Through that narrow cleft, Lann was said to fill the Rock with vermin. No doubt, he was very lowborn with respect to the Casterlys and that is why his progeny was called vermin by some haughty nobility and that was the root of this version. In the other version, Lann smuggles a pride of lions inside through that narrow cleft. This version is less racist with respect to the previous one. Lann's progeny is likened to a pride of lions, not vermin. And the bawdiest version is the less subtle one and requires less interpretation.

Therefore, in this context, LF-Sansa-Winterfell is precisely parallel to Lann-last female Casterly-Casterly Rock.

[Mladen]

snip

1. Sansa is not a Lannister

2. Sansa has no claim to Casterly Rock

3. Sansa has brothers

4. Sansa has brothers whom she would never go against

5. Sansa does not care for her claim, which she repeatedly says throughout the books.

6. Sansa is not physically attracted to LF, and again, raping her is in contrition with the game he played with her.

Therefore, in this context, LF-Sansa-Winterfell and Lann-last female Casterly-Casterly Rock parallel simply doesn't exist and it is reading too much into text in futile task of obtaining certain evidence. Same as Mance=Rhaegar, Howland Reed = High Septon and whatever PJ is doing these days.

[Mithras]

1. Sansa is not a Lannister

2. Sansa has no claim to Casterly Rock

3. Sansa has brothers

4. Sansa has brothers whom she would never go against

5. Sansa does not care for her claim, which she repeatedly says throughout the books.

6. Sansa is not physically attracted to LF, and again, raping her is in contrition with the game he played with her.

Therefore, in this context, LF-Sansa-Winterfell and Lann-last female Casterly-Casterly Rock parallel simply doesn't exist and it is reading too much into text in futile task of obtaining certain evidence. Same as Mance=Rhaegar, Howland Reed = High Septon and whatever PJ is doing these days.

How are any of these related to the point I made in that post, which was George giving us another example of an ancestral castle being likened to a female, which is in complete accordance with the metaphor he used aplenty such as:

Castle Built of Snow

“You know why they call her Gatehouse Ami? She raises her portcullis for every knight who happens by.”

He [Tyrion] hopped down from the dais and grabbed Sansa roughly. “Come, wife, time to smash your portcullis. I want to play come-into-the-castle.”

“Winterfell is the seat of House Stark,” Sansa told her husband-to-be. “The great castle of the north.”

“It’s not so great.” The boy knelt before the gatehouse. “Look, here comes a giant to knock it down.” He stood his doll in the snow and moved it jerkily. “Tromp tromp I’m a giant, I’m a giant,” he chanted. “Ho ho ho, open your gates or I’ll mash them and smash them.” Swinging the doll by the legs, he knocked the top off one gatehouse tower and then the other.

It was more than Sansa could stand. “Robert, stop that.” Instead he swung the doll again, and a foot of wall exploded. She grabbed for his hand but she caught the doll instead. There was a loud ripping sound as the thin cloth tore. Suddenly she had the doll’s head, Robert had the legs and body, and the rag-and-sawdust stuffing was spilling in the snow.

Lord Robert’s mouth trembled. “You killlllllllled him,” he wailed.

The erotic metaphor surrounding the gatehouse, the portcullis and the play come-into-the-castle is self-evident.

In addition to the giant who aims for the gatehouse of Sansa’s castle built of snow, LF (the savage giant) also literally says that he wants to play come-into-the-castle.

“That will give it strength enough to stand, I’d think,” Petyr said. “May I come into your castle, my lady?”

Sansa was wary. “Don’t break it. Be . . .”

“. . . gentle?” He smiled. “Winterfell has withstood fiercer enemies than me. It is Winterfell, is it not?”

LF is not talking about the snowy Winterfell. He has Sansa’s maidenhead in his mind and these are the fiercer enemies “Winterfell” has withstood:

1. The riot in KL. Not only a gang rape like Lollys was going to happen, but her life was also in danger. Thanks to the Hound, she was saved.

2. There is this controversial scene with the Hound. I don’t think the Hound wanted to rape her though. Maegor’s Holdfast is the place where Gregor killed Aegon and raped Elia. Doing anything to Sansa would make the Hound no different than Gregor and we know that he hates the Mountain.

3. At her wedding to Tyrion, Joffrey squeezed her breast and threatened to rape her on a regular basis.

4. Her “bedding” with Tyrion can be counted as a rape attempt, though Tyrion did not want to have her like that. He decided to melt her and make her want him just like LF is trying to do.

5. Marillion.

6. LF’s disgusting gropings.

With this perspective, “the little giant” attacking “the gatehouse of Sansa’s castle” symbolizes a rape attempt by LF; but the savaging of the little giant means that Sansa will slay the giant by cutting his manhood.

[Karene]

It's been a long time since the last post here, but I have to say all of these theories are interesting.

I did not realize how precipitous Littlefinger's position in The Vale is. I think I've come to see Littlefinger as all-knowing, all-powerful and intelligent than any other player (other than Varys). Not a good guy, but a smart one: he started the War of the Five Kings, he's the puppet-master behind it all (I don't need to list all of his 'achievements' to you guys, who know them all).

But I think I felt that LF was a "safe" character, not marked for death until the very end at least. However, you guys have helped me realize that LF's situation is much, much more precarious than he knows.

At least three people at The Vale have good reason to be aware that Alayne is Sansa:

- Yohn Royce is clearly the most obvious, asking if he's met Sansa before when meeting "Allayne" at The Eyrie.

- Ser Shadrich has made it clear (prior to his arrival at the Gates) that he is seeking Sansa Stark.

- Myranda Royce going up to the Vale only to ride back down again seems strange even to Sansa/Allayne. She's clearly trying to get information out of her.

I think it's reasonable to assume that the Royces, or at least some of them, are onto Littlefinger.

In the first reading of the novel it's easy to forget about characters like Shadrich. On a re-reading, it certainly struck me that Litttlefinger better have a back-up plan... and for the first time it occurred to me that he might not.

I know this was referenced in the show, not the books, but I remember the scene where Varys says to Ros that LF has a weakness that he doesn't hide as well as he thinks. The reader senses that Sansa is LF's weakness. It would make artistic sense that Sansa would be Littlefinger's undoing, thought I don't think Sansa will have to do much in terms of exposing LF herself. She is not physically vengeful (though a rape might change that) and there's enough people around LF who are aware of "Allayne" and her identity.

[Isobel Harper]

1. Sansa is not a Lannister

2. Sansa has no claim to Casterly Rock

3. Sansa has brothers

4. Sansa has brothers whom she would never go against

5. Sansa does not care for her claim, which she repeatedly says throughout the books.

6. Sansa is not physically attracted to LF, and again, raping her is in contrition with the game he played with her.

Therefore, in this context, LF-Sansa-Winterfell and Lann-last female Casterly-Casterly Rock parallel simply doesn't exist and it is reading too much into text in futile task of obtaining certain evidence. Same as Mance=Rhaegar, Howland Reed = High Septon and whatever PJ is doing these days.

1 and 2: The story is a symbolism of what might/will happen to Sansa. (History repeating itself.)

3 and 4: Neither Sansa or LF know that their alive yet nor that Jon could be legitimized.

5: But LF does. Sansa just wants to go home.

6: Not part of his plan... yet. He'll likely marry her to Harry the Heir, murder him, then bed her himself.