From Pawn to Slayer: Foreshadowing Sansa

[Uldra I]

Personal holocaust, check. That's already done with, so ordinarily you'd say Sansa has no need of any more pain sprinkled atop her plot pudding. But the problem is she's too content to lay low and not act on all of her built up.... build-up. And this will go on until something changes the status quo. So the death of Robert will be the wakeup call. That'll be the thing that snaps her out of stayin' alive, stayin' alive mode and shifts her into make it count, get it done mode. And that's what'll take her back to the center of the board, back to KL, with a will. <---of course, this was speculative, but we shouldn't have to apologize for that here, for the same reason it's pointless to start every opinion with, "In my opinion," because of course what we all have to say here is opinion.

I applaud how this site treats speculations as a good thing, an interesting thing, something worthy of discussion and being read. Some corners of the internet are filled with pharisees who try to shut down these kinds of topics and turn speculation into a bad word, as if anything that's not already canon causes them pain and must be demonized. In other words these folks have no creative side and they don't want to be reminded that other people do. So they try to carve out an artificial niche for themselves high on the mountaintop next to the author by devoting themselves to copying the author's words verbatim into a wiki like they're some kind of Moses figure no one requested, and then they go to work defending the purity of their chosen holy text's chapter and verse against any lowborn hooligan who dares to wonder aloud how the story might go. There can be no voice but the god's/author's!!!!

Well, thankfully, here we have something better than that arrangement. We all basically acknowledge the author as a god, but then on top of that we also speak freely about the possibilities for where the story might lead as if our voices are worth hearing too. So we sometimes get these theories that grow like trees rooted in the existing text but with branches branching out into fan fiction territory. And I love it. Because we're fans and writers so this speculation is what makes a chatboard worthwhile in between books. The canon is stagnant right now. Why stare only at the wiki when we already mostly know what it contains? That's like watching grass grow. The pharisees are above reproach only because they haven't actually contributed anything! So let the What Ifs flow!

Amen, Sister Mother of the Others!!!! :bowdown:

[Dreams and Prophecies]

and as soon as Sansa arrives in KL, Cersei will send her to Qyburn. Sansa may be a valuable hostage against the Northern forces (which is why Tywin didn't kill her) but Cersei is no Tywin.

Don't! I am already creeped out by that ONE line in AGoT where Pycelle "examines" Sansa and bedmaid has to hold her because she was squirming. Can't even imagine what Qyburn would do.

:ack:

[Mithras]

“Sweet Alayne. I am Marillion. I saw you come in from the rain. The night is chill and wet. Let me warm you.”

“How long have you been out here? You must be very cold. Let me warm you, Sansa. Take off those gloves, give me your hands.”

Marillion told this (bolded part) to Sansa before he tried to rape her. Interestingly, this is exactly what LF told to Sansa before he forcefully kissed her.

Sansa stared at his hands while he spoke. Fat Maddy claimed that Mord had taken off three of his fingers, both pinkies and a ring finger. His little fingers did appear somewhat stiffer than the others, but with those gloves it was hard to be certain. It might have been no more than a story. How would Maddy know?

Sansa noted Marillion’s little finger appearing stiffer than the others. We know that he had tried to rape Sansa once. Is this a hint for the readers to take the stiff little finger as a phallic object? I think it is. And this is one of the many.

“Though I do wish he had a better name than Littlefinger. How little is it, do you know?”

“His finger?” She blushed again. “I don’t... I never...”

“Littlefinger’s little finger has been busy,”

So, Littlefinger’s little finger is not always his little finger.

When the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will, Ser Garlan the Gallant gave her comfort, not Littlefinger. Littlefinger never lifted so much as his little finger for her.

GRRM likes his word plays. Littlefinger will lift his little finger for Sansa, to be sure.

ETA:

Most of the important Vale Lords probably know who Sansa really is. But does this mean that they will automatically pledge their swords to her? Can they really trust her at this point?

I think the Vale Lords probably think that Sansa somehow killed Joffrey with the help of LF and now she beds with him and probably conspires with him.

Randa specifically asked Sansa how big the little finger of Littlefinger is. Maybe she was looking for a slip.

Also, declaring for Sansa will make all of them traitors to the IT. Can they risk such a thing especially after Cersei wins her trial?

And finally, can Sansa trust them?

I think after Sansa slays the LF, she will think that she has no future in the Vale and jump on the first opportunity to get out quickly. And the only people she might trust in this might be the hedge knights who will be free when LF dies.

[Uldra I]

I've been thinking Sansa will go back to WF at least for a while to start rebuilding with LF's help... because of the snow castle. Rickon is bound to head back to WF at some point. Maybe Bran will be able to communicate with Rickon through Shaggydog when it is safe for him to return. If Baelish does secure her a place at the Eyrie by betrothing Sansa to Harry the Heir as he promised, then I assumed she'd go back there to live and marry Harry. Even if SweetRobin dies, poisoning or otherwise, it would surprise me if the Vale became upset to lose him as Lord.

It would turn things all upside down in my head if she has to run from the Eyrie to escape ire of the Vale's people over Joffreys murder. Didn't the people of the Vale want to fight for King Robb's side? It would be horrible to have to read chapters of Sansa on the road, trying to survive.., had enough of those sorts of stories already. :P

I'm really tired right now, kinda foggy headed. Please correct me if I remembered any facts wrong.

[Newstar]

Don't! I am already creeped out by that ONE line in AGoT where Pycelle "examines" Sansa and bedmaid has to hold her because she was squirming. Can't even imagine what Qyburn would do.

:ack:

Right you are. I'd completely forgotten about that. The offending passage:

Once Grand Maester Pycelle came with a box of flasks and bottles, to ask if she was ill. He felt her brow, made her undress, and touched her all over while her bedmaid held her down.

What the hell was Pycelle doing to her so that her bedmaid had to hold her down? It's left rather vague, unlike Maester Frenken's treatment of her injuries in ACOK which is more specific (spreading a salve over her legs to help heal the welts left by her beating).

It seems like a lot of the most disturbing passages are not those where horrible things are graphically described, but rather those described with a glancing, offhand reference.

[Mr. Maester]

I like the idea of Littlefinger's endpoint being Sansa cutting off his "little finger." Reminds me of how GRRM laid the foundation for Tywin dying on a toilet with the "Tywin shits gold" line.

[Fire Eater]

Right you are. I'd completely forgotten about that. The offending passage:

What the hell was Pycelle doing to her so that her bedmaid had to hold her down? It's left rather vague, unlike Maester Frenken's treatment of her injuries in ACOK which is more specific (spreading a salve over her legs to help heal the welts left by her beating).

It seems like a lot of the most disturbing passages are not those where horrible things are graphically described, but rather those described with a glancing, offhand reference.

Especially since we know Pycelle didn't keep to his vow of celibacy when we found him bedding one of his young servants.

ETA:

Most of the important Vale Lords probably know who Sansa really is. But does this mean that they will automatically pledge their swords to her? Can they really trust her at this point?

I think the Vale Lords probably think that Sansa somehow killed Joffrey with the help of LF and now she beds with him and probably conspires with him.

She will be saying LF was the one who killed Lysa, not Marillion. Nestor Royce would be inclined to disbelieve her, and it would be contradicting the story the Vale lords heard and accepted. She will proven herself to have lied before. Of course, since she was in on it, they would no doubt suspect that she had something to do with Lysa's death given that she was there when it happened. She disappeared the night of Joffrey's death as well. It would not be too far for some to suspect that she killed Joffrey for vengeance for Ned's death and/or rejection for Margaery being replaced as Joffrey's queen, then killed off Lysa and then LF, while currying favor with Lord Robert Arryn to take control of the Eyrie and the Vale.

[Uldra I]

Especially since we know Pycelle didn't keep to his vow of celibacy when we found him bedding one of his young servants.

She will be saying LF was the one who killed Lysa, not Marillion. Nestor Royce would be inclined to disbelieve her, and it would be contradicting the story the Vale lords heard and accepted. She will proven herself to have lied before. Of course, since she was in on it, they would no doubt suspect that she had something to do with Lysa's death given that she was there when it happened. She disappeared the night of Joffrey's death as well. It would not be too far for some to suspect that she killed Joffrey for vengeance for Ned's death and/or rejection for Margaery being replaced as Joffrey's queen, then killed off Lysa and then LF, while currying favor with Lord Robert Arryn to take control of the Eyrie and the Vale.

I'm just not convinced the Vale cares at all about Joff's death. Seems they have more sympathies with the Starks and the North than they do with the crown. SweetRobin's death will look like natural causes. Lysa's death will be determined to be an accident. IIRC in the books, Baelish did rehearse with Sansa about what to say.

In the books Baelish initially takes responsibility for Lysa's death, and likewise in the show probably tells them it was his fault because they were arguing and she was drinking and becoming wildly upset by it all. He'll say, she wouldn't have fallen if I hadn't upset her. That's when Sansa says something like, my uncle lied to try to protect me. It was me she was so upset with. I slapped SweetRobin when he ruined my snow castle.

Then they write it off as an accident.

[Pod The Impaler]

I'm just not convinced the Vale cares at all about Joff's death. Seems they have more sympathies with the Starks and the North than they do with the crown. SweetRobin's death will look like natural causes. Lysa's death will be determined to be an accident.

The Vale lords are clearly split on the matter. It is no simply thing to go against the Iron Throne, nor would they necessarily believe the accusation that Cersei's children were not legitimate. .

However, Jon Arryn was close with the Starks and Robert; Eddard was killed by the Lannisters, and Stannis was Robert's brother, so the question of what Jon Arryn would have done were he alive makes things fairly clear. The fact that Lady Lysa did accuse the Lannisters (Tyrion in particular) of killing Jon Arryn meant they likely would have been anti-Lannister if they had entered the war at all. The Blackfish, too, was not of the Vale, but he was their knight of the gate, and there was no doubt as to which side he was on.

So no doubt, it probably baffled them as to why Lysa would do something to antagonize the Lannisters then make sure her lords never entered the war on Robb's side. At least until she married Littlefinger - if they did not smell a rat up to then, I'm sure some of them did afterwards. Yohn Royce most of all.

[Fire Eater]

I'm just not convinced the Vale cares at all about Joff's death. Seems they have more sympathies with the Starks and the North than they do with the crown. SweetRobin's death will look like natural causes. Lysa's death will be determined to be an accident. IIRC in the books, Baelish did rehearse with Sansa about what to say.

In the books Baelish initially takes responsibility for Lysa's death, and likewise in the show probably tells them it was his fault because they were arguing and she was drinking and becoming wildly upset by it all. He'll say, she wouldn't have fallen if I hadn't upset her. That's when Sansa says something like, my uncle lied to try to protect me. It was me she was so upset with. I slapped SweetRobin when he ruined my snow castle.

Then they write it off as an accident.

Except I don't think SW will die. He has gotten worse, and been given the impression that he is not long for this world, with a man working to kill him so I think he will live. GRRM builds impressions only to pull the rug out from under the reader. LF said "it was I who killed her" to play the role of the grieving widower who feels guilt over his wife's death feeling he should have done something.

If Lysa's death was an accident they would question why the Moon Door was open. It has heavy bars, and is only opened for executions.

[Uldra I]

Except I don't think SW will die. He has gotten worse, and been given the impression that he is not long for this world, with a man working to kill him so I think he will live. GRRM builds impressions only to pull the rug out from under the reader. LF said "it was I who killed her" to play the role of the grieving widower who feels guilt over his wife's death feeling he should have done something.

If Lysa's death was an accident they would question why the Moon Door was open. It has heavy bars, and is only opened for executions.

You mean LF will set it up to look like a suicide? Sure, I guess that could work just as well or maybe better than the accident. :) We will see what the show has to say about it soon! :drool:

Gonna Razz you if I'm right. heehee :P

ETA: I didn't mean SR would die in this episode. was responding to a post saying that the Vale will come to think Sansa is guilty of all the murders in the future... Joff, SR, and Lysa.

[Lee-Sensei]

The Vale lords are clearly split on the matter. It is no simply thing to go against the Iron Throne, nor would they necessarily believe the accusation that Cersei's children were not legitimate. .

However, Jon Arryn was close with the Starks and Robert; Eddard was killed by the Lannisters, and Stannis was Robert's brother, so the question of what Jon Arryn would have done were he alive makes things fairly clear. The fact that Lady Lysa did accuse the Lannisters (Tyrion in particular) of killing Jon Arryn meant they likely would have been anti-Lannister if they had entered the war at all. The Blackfish, too, was not of the Vale, but he was their knight of the gate, and there was no doubt as to which side he was on.

So no doubt, it probably baffled them as to why Lysa would do something to antagonize the Lannisters then make sure her lords never entered the war on Robb's side. At least until she married Littlefinger - if they did not smell a rat up to then, I'm sure some of them did afterwards. Yohn Royce most of all.

Or Stannis' side seeing as he's Roberts brother, Robert probably had more friends in the Vale than Ned, Robb was going for independence and Jon knew and worked with Stannis for years.

[mambru]

Sansa has safety now with LF - if she does everything he says, he'll bend his considerable talents to fulfilling his plans, and keep her safe as long as she remains utterly obedient, devoted and useful to those plans. However, it'll cost her her soul.

IMO, to remain a protagonist, she can't stick to safety for herself as her sole goal. At some point she'll have to take the risk to go against LF and trust others who may or may not succor her. If she doesn't, she'll end up an inconsequential villainous pawn. Of course, many might feel that that IS Sansa's destiny. But I think such a lowly end would be a waste of her long plot line.

I think Sansa will save herself by saving SR and handing him over to Bronze Yohn, along with a public denunciation of Littlefinger as his attempted murderer - maybe with Maester Colemon as witness - we know that he was anxious about SR's health. By saving their Lord Paramount, she would put the Vale nobility in her debt. And by handing SR to Bronze Yohn, along with the means to remove LF as Lord Protector, she'll have handed him the key to supreme power in the Vale. Of course, he could betray her to the crown anyway - a risk she could alleviate to some extent by making sure her rescue of SR and denunciation of LF is public - which would put the lords she's aided under the obligation to treat her with the consideration she's earned.

Of course, there's still a risk. But I think she'll take it. After all, it's pretty significant that in Sansa's last chapter, Littlefinger presents her with his plan to marry her off to Harry after he murders SR - and the reaction of Sansa is withheld. And despite ADWD, and then ALL the teaser chapters for TWOW, GRRM has carefully given no clue in 10 years as to what Sansa will do. I'd say her decision about what to do regarding SR's fate is probably pretty significant...and after 10 years, it would be an absurd letdown if the reaction GRRM has withheld all this time is merely, "And then Sansa did exactly what LF told her to do."

[Newstar]

Especially since we know Pycelle didn't keep to his vow of celibacy when we found him bedding one of his young servants.

Yuuuuuup. I dunno if there's ever been a thread to devoted to the question of whether Pycelle molested Sansa, but then, it doesn't ever come up in the books again. We can probably add it to the list of traumatic things Sansa is blocking out.

[The Mother of The Others]

Mr. Maester was on the clock when he conducted the exam. All his official maestering is very Pro-fessional.

[Paulisdead]

I do agree that Sansa has a major part to play, but I think that at least for some period of time if not for the rest of the books, she's on team LF. I think this includes her being a willing participant in whatever his plan is for the army of the vale, his other plots, and his affection for her. She's been more than a complacent accomplice lately. She's had opportunity to get rid of LF if she wanted to and hasn't.

If there's something "controversial" coming up for Sansa as has been hinted, I view her willing participation in a possible romantic encounter with LF as more controversial than her being victimized.

Innocence lost seems to have been her arc so far imo, and I see it continuing.

[Brav]

The tv series tends to be less subtle than the books with its hints and the foreshadowing was strong for Sansa in the latest episode. She walked down that stair like a younger Cersei. There was careful lighting in that scene to suggest the woman she could become. There was a strong hint of Sansa being a player partner for Littlefinger in the future and he can see how well she learns. That was an eyeopener.

[High Sparrow Little Bird]

In my opinion, Sansa will seduce Petyr and cut off his pillar and stones, either killing him or turning him into a Eunuch. Master of whores now becomes a Eunuch like Varys.

[chrisdaw]

I also believe SR isn't dying, LF is the one dying.

It's being set up for a Yohn vs Nestor showdown here, the victor will emerge Lord Protector of the Vale and Sweet Robin his ward.

I think Nestor will come out on top, because Randa is free to marry SR and Ysilla is not, and Nestor is more pliable, making him a more useful pawn for Sansa.

I doubt Sansa is leaving the Vale until Robert gets to see the bad man fly, the foreshadowing runs deep.

Also some how some way I think they'll end up in the Eyrie again.

[High without honor]

LF is someone who betrays people as soon as they start trusting him. It would be ironic if he starts trusting Sansa and this would be the end of him.