From Pawn to Slayer: Foreshadowing Sansa

[Uldra I]

And by that you mean a lot of people telling her what to do, how to deploy her forces. As she doesn't know better she has to go by trust. You are putting all your soldiers under the command of someone else. Who are they loyal to? Think about how Stannis used the Royal Navy. There is a reason rulers command, why they fight up front, so people can see them, to grow loyalty and respect. Their commander is leading them to victory.

Give you army to someone like Bolton for example, he sends the loyal to die first and then turns on you! You lead yourself, you make decisions yourself.

No one of young Ladys or Queens, at the begining, have the necessary skills, but if she continue to do nothing, she will never learn. Evry good king have a council. Baelish have a lot of necessary skills, lords Royce and Corbray has military skills. HtH is a young charismatic knight. Sansa don't need to make a plan for herself, she can have every help she need.

I think Sansa is now in serious Olympian level GoT training now, with LF. (Just like Arya is training w/FM and Bran is training w/Bloodraven) It may take a while, but she will eventually come into her own power. LF has promised to make it happen.

ETA: Her graduation will be when she takes LF's head off. :P

[Lee-Sensei]

I have to agree with most of my betters. I don't see Sansa being Cersei's pawn not again. I just don't see her headed back to KL.

I can get with the rape only you've got the wrong person, its Tyrion that's going to do the raping. His arch in the Vale isn't over either and some of prime people on his debt list happen to be in the Vale right now. Sweetrobin,Littlefinger and his loving wife. Not to mention their marriage can be explotited by the Northern lords just like Tywin wanted only in reverse. That would be a big fuck you to the Tywin and his shade. Last but not least there has been some forshadowing that the Rock and Vale are going to becoming under new management very soon.

Sansa has no claim on the Vale. If she was pregnant with Tyrion's child she might, but even then Tyrion's a kinslayer and widely despised. CR belongs to Cersei.

Sansa: I'm Sansa Stark, house Stark and house Royce are united by a long history. I know, you Lord Yohon, wanted to stay with my brother in the past war, but lady Lysa didn't allow, she was scared about Lannisters, ours common enemies. Lannisters killed your Lord, Jon Arryn and they killed all my family. Frey and Boltons are insidious bastards, they broke the laws of gods and they are ally with Lannisters. I'm a niece of your lady Lysa and the wife of yours new lord Harry, i ask you lord Royce to protect our honor and take the revenge for lord Arryn and for me.

Yohon Royce: As you command lady Stark

Please excuse me for my english, it is very difficult for me to explain all of things i would to tell.

I hope you can understand my "english"

Sansa: I'm Sansa Stark, house Stark and house Royce are united by a long history. I know, you Lord Yohon, wanted to stay with my brother in the past war, but lady Lysa didn't allow, she was scared about Lannisters, ours common enemies. Lannisters killed your Lord, Jon Arryn and they killed all my family. Frey and Boltons are insidious bastards, they broke the laws of gods and they are ally with Lannisters. I'm a niece of your lady Lysa and the wife of yours new lord Harry, i ask you lord Royce to protect our honor and take the revenge for lord Arryn and for me.

Yohon Royce: As you command lady Stark. By the way, I've heard whispers of foulplay in the deaths of our last Lords, including your sickly child cousin. What's that about?

[juanml82]

Cersei also fears Stannis above else. Sansa's claim to Winterfell is better than fArya. With Rickon&Bran are assumed to be dead, she might think that they found some feigned boy to be passed as Rickon (it will be a popular theme after the appearance of fAegon). In this case, Sansa becomes the rightful heir of Winterfell. In any case, as long as Cersei keeps her, Stannis cannot attack the KL with his Northmen. She kept Redwyne twins as hostages, that is why the Redwyne Fleet could not join Renly. After the murder of Kevan and Pycelle, Cersei will hate the Tyrells even more and I bet Varys will do everything to fuel her paranoia about the Tyrells. I really can't see Cersei killing Sansa at first sight. This is wrong with respect to the latest events.

That's assuming that Stannis will survive and that the Northerners will want to go south of the Twins.

Since I do believe that LF is not loved by many in the Vale, and that lords are working on his downfall, I wouldn't be so sure that they would harm her if she reveals to them. Especially Royces.

Nestor Royce might end up going either way IMHO, but that's besides the point. The whole point of keeping hands clean is that, should Sansa premeditatedly kill Littlefinger, none will blame her.

LF still has a few allies in the Vale including the Waynwoods who would be present.

Likewise, AGoT Sansa and TWoW Sansa aren't the same either. What is to say she won't be able to use her skills in this one? She can make allies with the Tyrell girls who would likely be in the same situation as her, and a few other people, possibly including a reformed Jaime, and likely pick up on conversation form servants to gather info. It wouldn't be the same arc as this is a different Sansa, a different Cersei and Jaime, and she would have allies. It would be resolved in the way I described in the Rundown thread.

Yet, she was never present at Tyrion's trial, and the Tyrells would insist on giving her a trial to present evidence. The Tyrells originally planned to have her acquitted or declared innocent had LF not taken her away.

She was not able to make allies with the Tyrell girls when she was hanging out with them and was not accused of regicide, and you want her to make allies out of them while she's in the Black Cells with Qyburn possibly mutilating her for body parts?

And I can't possibly see why the QoT would confess, let alone giving her a trial - better to kill her before she can share whatever Littlefinger told her.

[The Mother of The Others]

Suddenly she had the doll’s head, Robert had the legs and body, and the rag-and-sawdust stuffing was spilling in the snow.

Lord Robert’s mouth trembled. “You killlllllllled him,” he wailed.

I'm familiar with how everyone sees this doll as a symbol for Petyr being the real giant. But we have ignored the surface level of what's going on here! Lord Robert was holding a doll that was his fantasy self, doing what he wanted to do---conquer places like Winterfell! Lord Robert was the savage giant, both literally (it was him playing Giant) and figuratively (he was growing up on the fast track to become another Jeoffrey monster lordling until Sansa stepped in and began humanizing him!) SweetRob behaves like a savage throughout, wanting men like Tyrion to die for his amusement and then spazzing and puking. He's like a son of Timmett! Petyr is cultured and civilized throughout and was the one who helped Sansa rebuild Winterfell from Robert's devastation of it. She slayed Petyr's mental discipline in that snow castle, perhaps. That was when he thawed, ironically. The one time when he wasn't callous. So she may have slain any chance of Petyr discarding her as he does everyone else. But the main turning point in that snow castle was her standing up to SweetRob's Hulk-Smash and beginning to parent him toward a saner future. Sansa humbled that kid, the start of turning him away from being a future political monster (who'd make people fly at LF's merest suggestion) and toward becoming a little dude who wants to tailor his behavior to impress this new mom/babe. He'll listen to her first now. Giant slain.

[Lee-Sensei]

I'm familiar with how everyone sees this doll as a symbol for Petyr being the real giant. But we have ignored the surface level of what's going on here! Lord Robert was holding a doll that was his fantasy self, doing what he wanted to do---conquer places like Winterfell! Lord Robert was the savage giant, both literally (it was him playing Giant) and figuratively (he was growing up on the fast track to become another Jeoffrey monster lordling until Sansa stepped in and began humanizing him!) SweetRob behaves like a savage throughout, wanting men like Tyrion to die for his amusement and then spazzing and puking. He's like a son of Timmett! Petyr is cultured and civilized throughout and was the one who helped Sansa rebuild Winterfell from Robert's devastation of it. She slayed Petyr's mental discipline in that snow castle, perhaps. That was when he thawed, ironically. The one time when he wasn't callous. So she may have slain any chance of Petyr discarding her as he does everyone else. But the main turning point in that snow castle was her standing up to SweetRob's Hulk-Smash and beginning to parent him toward a saner future.

"Men like Tyrion"... you say that as if Tyrion is a good man. He's not. He's an asshole like Jaime and Theon and was believed to have murdered "Jon Arryn". Why shouldn't he want him executed?

[Fire Eater]

I am not sure that LF has any allies in Vale. Even Corbray or Waynwood are suspicious to me.

You are forgetting Grafton and Lynderly. Lord Corbray seems well-disposed towards his rule. He is also making friends out of the Lords Declarant.

The thing is that we would return to the same point where she was. It wouldn't be the new Sansa, it would be just "been there, done that" Sansa. Sansa being locked in the tower, being hostage to Cersei, that is already seen and done. I am sorry, but this theory, no matter how good imagined it is, simply is against what I believe is in narrative of Sansa's arc. It is against some very strong rules of Martin's writings. I simply don't see it. It's the same as theory of her becoming Queen of everything under the Sun. We can create the logical chain of events, but the narrative is simply against it.

No, it would be the new Sansa, as you ignoring internal conditions for external ones, ignoring all her pseronal growth and changes. Against strong rules of Martin's writing and narrative being against it? Actually, the examples I provided show the opposite I believe, as Sansa would be far from helpless in this position. She could still do some maneuvering, and win some friends both high and low.

Possibly, but not likely... Since I doubt that she will be in that position, I see no point in discussing what might Tyrells do. Especially given the fact that I believe that Sansa wouldn't live long enough if Cersei gets her.

Sansa is entitled to a trial for someone of her rank. Her councilors and Jaime would insist.

She was not able to make allies with the Tyrell girls when she was hanging out with them and was not accused of regicide, and you want her to make allies out of them while she's in the Black Cells with Qyburn possibly mutilating her for body parts?

And I can't possibly see why the QoT would confess, let alone giving her a trial - better to kill her before she can share whatever Littlefinger told her.

Except you are ignoring my theory, she wouldn't be given to Qyburn but a trial as especially highborn people are entitled to. You are also forgetting that this is not the same Sansa in ASoS, and she acquired skills since she left KL that the Tyrells seemed to want her even after her marriage to Tyrion.

The QoT would confess, because it would mean an innocent 14 year-old girl dies for a crime she committed. Olenna murdered Joffrey to protect her niece and nephew while killing Sansa would not accomplish much as the people of the court are already inclined to disbelieve her, she would have no proof for her claims.

[myhousigilisthehousecat]

Winterfell's a lousy place right now- sacked, burned, buried in snow, people are eating each other or burning each other alive, and soon it will be crawling with Others and the undead. Nobody's gonna want to go back there until spring. I'm willing to bet that King's Landing will literally explode with wildfire soon enough too. My guess is that she ends up going south somewhere, maybe for reasons to do with fAegon or Dorne.

[Gogossos]

Sansa can have the most impact by achieving a position of political power in the Vale and the Riverlands. From there, she can acquire a pivotal role in the coming events. That doesn't preclude her from going North, but I think she won't be able of achieving as much, in the political sense, there.

I agree with this. I, too, don't see Sansa leaving the Vale. If we zoom out, we can see a few stories possibly leading to the Vale and that's why Sansa will stay there and influence the direction, rather than the other way round. Many times I don't engage in the foreshadowing game because I think it's too easy to get lost in it. I prefer to think in broad strokes about where I believe Martin is heading. That's why I'm also of the view that Sansa going back to KL won't achieve much, if anything at all, for her. That's not to say there's no influence on her from there. In fact, for LF, the lords of the Vale and for Sansa herself, unveiling Sansa Stark's whereabouts will only happen if there are reasonable assurances that the Iron Throne won't come after her. It's too dangerous as long as Cersei is in charge, so she'll stay hidden and all the various factions in the Vale will make sure of that, it's in their collective interests. Clearly that changes if fAegon or Dany gains power, or if Dany lands in the Vale and offers reasonable protection.

LF's Harry the Hair plan won't happen/succeed, purely because the said plan has been prematurely revealed to the reader (another example of this, Arianne's plan to crown Myrcella). To keep it interesting, Sweetrobin therefore won't die and Sansa's increasing influence on the little lord will be of significant polical interest. Including her birth credentials, Sansa will become a significant pawn - except that she'd have leant how to play the game herself. She's not going to lead armies or issue battleground commands, the most important lesson from LF is how to influence people, which she will do to for her own ends. For her it'll be about helping Jon and NW, avenging the RW and Ned, helping to rebuild Winterfell, protecting Sweetrobin (her source of power) and extricating herself from the Tyrion marriage, if she can. That's enough to take her through to the series end, methinks.

[Uldra I]

Sansa: I'm Sansa Stark, house Stark and house Royce are united by a long history. I know, you Lord Yohon, wanted to stay with my brother in the past war, but lady Lysa didn't allow, she was scared about Lannisters, ours common enemies. Lannisters killed your Lord, Jon Arryn and they killed all my family. Frey and Boltons are insidious bastards, they broke the laws of gods and they are ally with Lannisters. I'm a niece of your lady Lysa and the wife of yours new lord Harry, i ask you lord Royce to protect our honor and take the revenge for lord Arryn and for me.

Yohon Royce: As you command lady Stark

Please excuse me for my english, it is very difficult for me to explain all of things i would to tell.

I hope you can understand my "english"

Your English is good enough for me to understand... and I only know English :)

[Uldra I]

...

LF's Harry the Hair plan won't happen/succeed, purely because the said plan has been prematurely revealed to the reader ...

Sansa's betrothal to Harrys the Heir, and her identity-reveal are essential to move the Vale into action. That is the only way left for Winterfell to be salvaged from the Boltons. I know, it could, and probably will go otherwise than what I think, but for now.... I have to stick with the plan. LF will keep his promise and give Sansa; Harrys, the Vale, and Winterfell, in that order too, before all is said and done.

Is there a place where I can mark my words, and win a prize if I'm right? :D

ETA: Not saying that the betrothal will result in matrimony. :idea:

[The Mother of The Others]

"Men like Tyrion"...

Tyrion was mentioned because Lord Robert was clamoring "Can we throw him out the window? Can we? Can we?" as soon as the kid heard that maybe Lyssa didn't like someone. That means it didn't matter if Tyrion was a jerk or if he was guilty, it could have been anyone standing in his place---the brat just wanted to see someone fly. If you don't like Tyrion, I'll make a note of that, but he wasn't the main thing going on there, and certainly wasn't guilty of the crime. This moondoor enthusiast kid mirrors Jaime's worst kid tossing moment. We have an out-the-window-tosser on each side of the Tully/Lannister divide, to show that lords are callous the world round.

[Lee-Sensei]

Tyrion was mentioned because Lord Robert was clamoring "Can we throw him out the window? Can we? Can we?" as soon as the kid heard that maybe Lyssa didn't like someone. That means it didn't matter if Tyrion was a jerk or if he was guilty, it could have been anyone standing in his place---the brat just wanted to see someone fly. If you don't like Tyrion, I'll make a note of that, but he wasn't the main thing going on there, and certainly wasn't guilty of the crime. This moondoor enthusiast kid mirrors Jaime's worst kid tossing moment. We have an out-the-window-tosser on each side of the Tully/Lannister divide, to show that lords are callous the world round.

You're entitled to your opinion, but not to your own facts. He asked if Tyrion was a bad person and then said to get rid of him. It's not about who he thought Lysa liked or didn't like. He thought he was a bad guy.

Its not about me not liking Tyrion. I do like him. I like Theon and Jaime too, but it doesn't change the fact that they're all assholes.

Robert Arryn wanting Tyrion thrown out the moon door is not comparable to Jaime pushing Bran out the window at all.

Robert Arryn heres that Tyrion's a bad guy who murdered his father and says to get rid of him. He's a mentally stunted child who might not even know that people can't fly. Jaime is a full grown adult who pushed an innocent child out the window to cover his ass while he was cuckolding his King, sleeping with his sister and sowing the seeds of rebellion.

Tyrion and Bran are not comparable at all. If you don't like Robert Arryn that's fine, but the facts are the facts.

[The Mother of The Others]

(Hi!) I don't like Robert Arryn. If someone saves him and raises him right, that's okay. If he dies, please let it be in the middle of one of his tantrums. Another fact is that as soon as we met the Lannisters someone flew out a window and as soon as we met the Arryns someone flew out a window.

[Lee-Sensei]

(Hi!) I don't like Robert Arryn. If someone saves him and raises him right, that's okay. If he dies, please let it be in the middle of one of his tantrums. Another fact is that as soon as we met the Lannisters someone flew out a window and as soon as we met the Arryns someone flew out a window.

Who flew out the window the first time we read about the Eyrie? Well, if SR dies on Sansa's watch and the Lords of the Vale find out about it, I see Sansa meeting a bad end. Even Yohn Royce would probably call for her execution.

Again, SR is a brat, but comparable to Jaime Lannister or Tyrion? Nah. Not. Even. Close... yet.

[The Mother of The Others]

who flew?

That guy who wasn't Bronn in the trial by combat fight with Bronn. I got the feeling that "Is he a bad man, mommy?" = "Do we like him? No? Then can I have permission to toss this stranger? because that's my thing! May I?" It felt very Jeoff, just with a veneer of justice to it because that's how he'd been schooled.

[Lee-Sensei]

That guy who wasn't Bronn in the trial by combat fight with Bronn. I got the feeling that "Is he a bad man, mommy?" = "Do we like him? No? Then can I have permission to toss this stranger? because that's my thing! May I?" It felt very Jeoff, just with a veneer of justice to it because that's how he'd been schooled.

You can hardly blame him for that. Blame Lysa and Bronn for it. Vardis lost his fight and died for it.

Is he a bad man meant is he a bad man. The man that murdered his father.

[juanml82]

Robert Arryn wanting Tyrion thrown out the moon door is not comparable to Jaime pushing Bran out the window at all.

Indeed. Jaime had pragmatical reasons to throw Bran to his death (whether we agree or not with his actions is not my point. It's that Bran became a witness of something that could cost him and Cersei their lives). Robert Arryn only heard he was a "bad man".

And before someone points out that Robert is a child, Osha was part of a wildling party which actually threatened to kill Bran, who's just one year older and we've never heard of Bran asking Robb to behead her.

That guy who wasn't Bronn in the trial by combat fight with Bronn. I got the feeling that "Is he a bad man, mommy?" = "Do we like him? No? Then can I have permission to toss this stranger? because that's my thing! May I?" It felt very Jeoff, just with a veneer of justice to it because that's how he'd been schooled.

That's the show. In the books they fight at the Godswood and Bronn just killed the guy who wasn't Bronn. That said, I agree with your assessment of the Lord of the Vale.

Except you are ignoring my theory, she wouldn't be given to Qyburn but a trial as especially highborn people are entitled to. You are also forgetting that this is not the same Sansa in ASoS, and she acquired skills since she left KL that the Tyrells seemed to want her even after her marriage to Tyrion.

The QoT would confess, because it would mean an innocent 14 year-old girl dies for a crime she committed. Olenna murdered Joffrey to protect her niece and nephew while killing Sansa would not accomplish much as the people of the court are already inclined to disbelieve her, she would have no proof for her claims.

I'm not ignoring it. I'm aiming at the flaws. Falyse Stokeworth died a horrible death without a trial and she was friendly to Cersei. The same Cersei who actually spoke about cruelly killing Sansa once she got her hands on her. And your theory demands that this same Cersei, instead, not only gives her a trial, but doesn't even hurt her while she has her in her power.

And the second part requires that the person who actually killed Joffrey and implicated Sansa in the crime has a change of heart for reasons unknown. Remember, the QoT had already decided that an innocent 13 years old girl was to die for a crime she committed.

[Mithras]

Stannis who is stuck in Snow im North starving with his troops?

Sansa goes to KL, Cersei kills her strengthening fArya's claim to North. Keeping Sansa alive also means keeping Tyrion's claim to North alive. You really think Cersei is going to do that? And before you suggest it High Septon wont annul the marriage of someone accused and found guilty of Regicide (both Tyrion and Sansa).

Any way situation in KL is explosive enough for Cersei to ignore any shit that hits the fan in North. Stannis first has to finish Bolton & Freys in North then sort out his situation with Northern lords who can very well tell him to go bugger himself with Lightbringer. Stannis is long way from attacking KL again. If by some good luck Bolton Frey allince is done he will still have to cross Twins, Trident, Harrenhal and whole eastern part of Riverlands to get to KL. Just assuming something doesnt make him.

Same Varys will help fuel Cersei's paranoia whom she unwittingly and rightly suspects of helping Tyrion escape resulting in Tywin's death. I am calling your theory Crackpot with more holes than Swiss Cheese.

Have you even read all Sansa chapters and tried to understand her story arc ??????

Stannis will win the Battle on Ice. The Freys will mostly drown on the breaking ice and the Manderlys will turn their cloaks. This is foreshadowed to happen like that. When the Freys and Boltons are exterminated in the North, Stannis will have fArya along with a feigned boy Rickon (according to Cersei). Killing Sansa to strengthen the claim of fArya does not do any good to dead Boltons. In fact, killing Sansa would be a perfect move if she wants Stannis to rally the entire North and attack KL.

I'm not ignoring it. I'm aiming at the flaws. Falyse Stokeworth died a horrible death without a trial and she was friendly to Cersei. The same Cersei who actually spoke about cruelly killing Sansa once she got her hands on her. And your theory demands that this same Cersei, instead, not only gives her a trial, but doesn't even hurt her while she has her in her power.

And the second part requires that the person who actually killed Joffrey and implicated Sansa in the crime has a change of heart for reasons unknown. Remember, the QoT had already decided that an innocent 13 years old girl was to die for a crime she committed.

Cersei tricked them into killing Bronn and they screwed it up. Cersei had to remove them silently to hide her part in the guilt. But if her "loyal" advisor Qyburn offers her to carry out a public trial, where Sansa's story will throw more shit to the Tyrells, Cersei would do that.

[Uldra I]

...

And the second part requires that the person who actually killed Joffrey and implicated Sansa in the crime has a change of heart for reasons unknown. Remember, the QoT had already decided that an innocent 13 years old girl was to die for a crime she committed.

Planting the poison on Sansa was LF's doing. QoT didn't decide that.

[Asha's Suckling Babe]

Planting the poison on Sansa was LF's doing. QoT didn't decide that.

And Qot knew Sansa was carrying the poison and took the 'amethyst' from the hairnet. She surely understood that if Sansa's hairnet, with one poisonous stone missing, would be found, Sansa would look guilty.