House Stark speculation: Artos and Rodrick Stark

[Ravenkingsamurai]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=new_post&f=21

As revealed in the recently revealed House Stark family tree, Rickard Starks wife was Lyarra Stark, daughter of Rodrick the wondering wolf. We also now know that it was Lord Willams sons who inherited-yet Artos "the implacable" seems to have ruled winterfell. All these hint/suggest several things:

1: A major inter-family struggle around 225 AC ( death of Willam) to 260s AC, which my have killed many of the cadet branches of house Stark.

2: Artos presence in Winterfells tombs ( nominally reserved for Lords) suggests he was either a much loved uncle who ruled as a regent

OR

3: He usurped Winterfell, triggering the strife.

4: Any strife, if any, was resolved by the union of the two Branches by Rickard and Lyarra-but why Rodricks daughter and not say, Edwyles daughter to one of Artos' sons? Was Rodrick another contender ( an elder brother of Willam who returned home, who had long thought to be dead?)

5: Did Rodrick ever rule? or is he in the tombs out of respect and remembrance from his son-in law Rickard.

6: What happened to Willams other brothers and Artos 2 sons? What happened to Lyarras sister Branda? Victaims of strife? A major plague?

Any of your ideas, speculations e.c.t

[The hairy bear]

1-4: In the other thread, people were noting that Artos is never called "lord", and that the fact that he was buried in the crypts could be just a signal of love/admiration just as with Brandon and Lyanna. It seems a likely possibility.

5: The Wandering Wolf is never said to be buried in the crypts. He never ruled.

6: I don't know, but there are high odds for Dagon Greyjoy and his Ironborn being responsible.

[Ravenkingsamurai]

1-4: In the other thread, people were noting that Artos is never called "lord", and that the fact that he was buried in the crypts could be just a signal of love/admiration just as with Brandon and Lyanna. It seems a likely possibility.

5: The Wandering Wolf is never said to be buried in the crypts. He never ruled.

6: I don't know, but there are high odds for Dagon Greyjoy and his Ironborn being responsible.

Derp. Just realised that Rodrick isnt buried in the tombs. In which case, where is he buried? Did he go abroad again after having his children?

[Bael's Bastard]

I don't think Artos was ever lord, or ever attempted to have his children succeed him. I think he found his way into the crypts by being beloved and or being a great regent.

[Lord Varys]

I entertained the idea that William and Artos may have been twins - Beron had eight children, and if all of them were still minors when he died during the 'She-Wolves of Winterfell', it would not be unlikely if some of them were twins. I doubt that Lady Lorra gave birth every year...

Artos was really pissed that William died at Long Lake, so I'd be very surprised if he usurped his nephew's place. It would be even possible, I think, that he eventually joined the Night's Watch to set things right there, but I don't know if he then would be buried in Winterfell.

Bran mentioning Artos does not necessarily mean that his statue is there, especially since he is not called Lord. But if William and Artos were twins, that could explain why both of there are there, if they were.

As to the six sons of Lord Beron:

Donnor Stark reigned himself as Lord of Winterfell, meaning that he likely was elder than William and Artos, most likely the eldest son. He would have been Lord of Winterfell before William, I think. He could have fallen in the Skagos rebellion, if that took place before Raymun Redbeard's attack - and that seems to be the case. Both, during the Skagos Rebellion as well as Dagon Greyjoy's attacks could have killed more than one Stark. Say, Donnor, and one or two of the brothers between Donnor and William (Errold & Brandon) were killed during the Skagos Rebellion (the other could have joined the Night's Watch), and Artos' two sons died in the fight against the Ironborn (explaining why they line did not continue), leaving William to inherit Winterfell. Rodrik Stark, the Wandering Wolf, most likely was Beron's youngest son, the pup, who had no other chance to gain fame and make a name of himself by leaving Winterfell and traveling the world.

Old Nan's Brandon Stark, the why she came to Winterfell:

He most likely was Beron's son - that is, if Old Nan is a few years older than Maester Aemon, and the young woman Dunk kisses in Bran's vision.

Succession crisis speculation:

The MUSH appendix lists Edric Stark as second son of Lord Cregan by Lynara Stark. So he and his sons should have followed Lord Jonnel upon his death, rather than Barth, and eventually Brandon, the father of Rodwell and Beron.

My speculation is that Edric may have backed the wrong dragon during the Blackfyre Rebellion. It may be also somewhat striking that Edric married into the older Stark line of Rickon Stark - whose mother was Cregan's first wife Arra Norrey. This could indicate that Edric was overly ambitious, and he and his wife Serena Stark declared for Daemon hoping that a Blackfyre king would grant them and their sons Winterfell. That did not happen, but Serena, her sister Sansa, and her daughters Arrana and Aregelle may be some of the she-wolves of Winterfell from the future Dunk & Egg story. If they are still alive, they could have grown very embittered over the years, and may no try to take control of Winterfell against Lady Lorra Royce.

Possible Targaryen brides: According to the MUSH, Cregan was born in 108 AC. That means his mother, Rickon's wife, could have been a granddaughter of Jaehaerys I. Benjen Stark, the guy at the very top of the family tree, would be exactly in the right age to marry one of Jaehaerys' daughters.

[Eagle of Seagard]

Derp. Just realised that Rodrick isnt buried in the tombs. In which case, where is he buried? Did he go abroad again after having his children?

I am thinking that Rodrik was wandering before he had children, not after. Lyarra was probably born early to mid-240s (first child, Brandon, in 261). If Rodrik was the youngest child of Beron, then the latest he can be born is around 212 (when Beron was ailing). This is a good 30-year gap between his birth and Lyarra's, when most people seem to marry and procreate in their late teens, very early twenties. I reckon he was over in Essos for a few years in the late 220s-230s, then came home and settled down.

We don't really know that much about him though, to speculate more fully. It could just be that because he was the youngest son with no real hope of him or his line inheriting he just wasn't that eager to start a family....

[LordBloodraven]

One odd thing is Beron Stark. He died young IIRC. His children must have been pretty young at his death in 212-3. How old do you think Willam was? He only sired two children before dying. Must have not reached the age of 30. This gives us an Edwyle born around 220 or even later. Rickard Stark might have been younger than Tywin and Hoster Tully.

I always thought Beron was the younger brother of Artos, Willam and the rest. How wrong I was

[Barty]

I thought all Starks are buried there but only the Lords get statues.

Bran tells Osha when showing her the statues of Lyanna and Brandon that they were not supposed to have statues, not that they were not supposed to be buried here.

[Eagle of Seagard]

Beron was in his 30s when he died (or when he was ailing at least) - this was from a reading or something announcing the She-Wolves - so that would put his birth c.180, so his children are going to be born in the period c.196-212 or so. That would put the eldest at around 15/16 when the father died.

I would say Willam would be mid-20s when he died. I agree that Edwyle would have been born c.220, and then Rickard at c.240 - this would make him c.5 years younger than Hoster but c.2 years older than Tywin.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Old Nan's Brandon Stark, the why she came to Winterfell:

He most likely was Beron's son - that is, if Old Nan is a few years older than Maester Aemon, and the young woman Dunk kisses in Bran's vision.

I've been trying to work out whether Nan's Brandon was Beron's son or William's son. Beron died about 213. Wiliam died in 226. The piece of info I'm trying to integrate is the fact that two of Nan's sons died in 283 at the Trident.

If Nan was wet nurse to Beron's son, she must have been around 15 in 213 (assuming Brandon to be Beron's youngest, and assuming latest possible birth for him.) Nan would have been born around 198, and be 40 in 238. If her sons were both born to her at that time, they would be 45 at the Trident. Any earlier birth (which would be much more likely) would make them even older. If she bore them at age 20-25 (in 218-223), they would be 60-65 years old at the Trident. It seems unlikely to me that Eddard would take men that old with him when he called his banners. The "Brandon was Beron's son" solution also contradicts Bran's story of Nan's own recollections. She claimed her "Brandon" was either Edwyle or William's son, though she might have been confused. The upside of the "Brandon was Beron's son" version is that the godswood smoochers could be Nan and Dunk.

If Nan's Brandon was William's son, that would make her own son's ages at the Trident younger by 13 or so years. Nan would be about 15 in 226, born in 211. If she bore her sons in her 20-25th year (231-236), they would be 47-52 years old at the battle, a much more likely figure.

This makes me lean heavily toward the "Nan's Brandon was William's son" solution, although that precludes Nan kissing Dunk.

Am I figuring this wrongly?

[The Dublin Warrior]

The biggest questions I have is what happened to Artos' two children?

What happened to the 5 of Beron's 8 children that didn't marry nor have children of their own?

What happened to William Stark's son with Lyanne Glover?

Finally, why have so many of the Stark males not produced heirs?

[LordBloodraven]

Also Beron's wife is one Lorra Royce.

Artos the Implacable's wife is also one Lorra Royce.

Could they be the same? What could that mean? They could have the same name but related. Willam's daughter (Edwyle's sister) was married to one Royce also. These two houses share a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if Bronze Yohn was a distant cousin of Ned

[The Dublin Warrior]

Why is House Royce so connected to the Starks? Despite the marriage ties they always seem to be assisting the Starks for eg: Kyle Royce was a member of Brandon Stark's party when he went to KL to demand Rhaegers head for kidnapping Lyanna.

Also, During the Wot5K, Yohn Royce is one of the lords of the Vale who wishes to join with King Robb.

[Hardstone]

I've been trying to work out whether Nan's Brandon was Beron's son or William's son. Beron died about 213. Wiliam died in 226. The piece of info I'm trying to integrate is the fact that two of Nan's sons died in 283 at the Trident.

If Nan was wet nurse to Beron's son, she must have been around 15 in 213 (assuming Brandon to be Beron's youngest, and assuming latest possible birth for him.) Nan would have been born around 198, and be 40 in 238. If her sons were both born to her at that time, they would be 45 at the Trident. Any earlier birth (which would be much more likely) would make them even older. If she bore them at age 20-25 (in 218-223), they would be 60-65 years old at the Trident. It seems unlikely to me that Eddard would take men that old with him when he called his banners. The "Brandon was Beron's son" solution also contradicts Bran's story of Nan's own recollections. She claimed her "Brandon" was either Edwyle or William's son, though she might have been confused. The upside of the "Brandon was Beron's son" version is that the godswood smoochers could be Nan and Dunk.

If Nan's Brandon was William's son, that would make her own son's ages at the Trident younger by 13 or so years. Nan would be about 15 in 226, born in 211. If she bore her sons in her 20-25th year (231-236), they would be 47-52 years old at the battle, a much more likely figure.

This makes me lean heavily toward the "Nan's Brandon was William's son" solution, although that precludes Nan kissing Dunk.

Am I figuring this wrongly?

Also, remember that Old Nan's grandson died during the Greyjoy Rebellion and that Hodor is her great-grandson. We're never told his age but it could range from 18-30.

Why is House Royce so connected to the Starks? Despite the marriage ties they always seem to be assisting the Starks for eg: Kyle Royce was a member of Brandon Stark's party when he went to KL to demand Rhaegers head for kidnapping Lyanna.

Also, During the Wot5K, Yohn Royce is one of the lords of the Vale who wishes to join with King Robb.

The Royce's are proud of their First Men blood heritage. While they follow the Seven, they still keep ties with the old blood.

[Lord Varys]

If Nan gave birth to Dunk's son - Hodor's ancestor - it's very likely that she only married many years later. And even if she did not, the sons dying during the Rebellion, could have been her youngest children, meaning that they were born after she had turned forty. She is obviously a very healthy woman...

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Why is House Royce so connected to the Starks? Despite the marriage ties they always seem to be assisting the Starks for eg: Kyle Royce was a member of Brandon Stark's party when he went to KL to demand Rhaegers head for kidnapping Lyanna.

Also, During the Wot5K, Yohn Royce is one of the lords of the Vale who wishes to join with King Robb.

Family several times over and Yohn was BFF with Ned since he was fostered. Yohn visited Winterfell and was meant to take Ned to the Wall.

House Royce: We Remember

[-Ghost-]

Also Beron's wife is one Lorra Royce.

Artos the Implacable's wife is also one Lorra Royce.

Could they be the same?

One of the Lorra Royce's is Artos' mother. I don't think he married his mother. I'm guessing the second Lorra was a cousin.

[Bael's Bastard]

Even if it isn't changed, I would go so far as to say it is impossible they are the same person. One could be from the main line of Runestone, and the other from the cadet branch. Or even if from the same branch, they could just be named after the same person, or even the younger named after the older. I don't have the PDF in front of me, but there had to be at least around half a dozen Brandons in the incomplete Stark family tree. A good name gets reused.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

I thought all Starks are buried there but only the Lords get statues.

Bran tells Osha when showing her the statues of Lyanna and Brandon that they were not supposed to have statues, not that they were not supposed to be buried here.

Correct, Starks are usually buried in the crypts of Winterfell, otherwise it would have been strange for Lyanna to want to be buried their, also in an Arya flashback on book one where she thinks about Jon and Robb scaring them with Jon covered in flour it is mentioned that they are by "their graves" not "Robb's grave" showing that ordinary members of house Stark are buried in the crypts.

[Elkrider]

I thought all Starks are buried there but only the Lords get statues.

Bran tells Osha when showing her the statues of Lyanna and Brandon that they were not supposed to have statues, not that they were not supposed to be buried here.

Correct, Starks are usually buried in the crypts of Winterfell, otherwise it would have been strange for Lyanna to want to be buried their, also in an Arya flashback on book one where she thinks about Jon and Robb scaring them with Jon covered in flour it is mentioned that they are by "their graves" not "Robb's grave" showing that ordinary members of house Stark are buried in the crypts.

Also, when Theon fake-kills Bran and Rickon, Maester Luwin asks for permission to bury the boys' bodies in the family crypts.

With regards to the OP: The Spring Sickness also occurred during this time, according to D&E, and it's not unlikely that many family lines died off (in addition to the effects of the Ironborn invasion, and later the wildling one)

The other thing about the family tree is that the birth order appears to be off for Ned's generation, which means that it could be wrong for the other generations, which means our speculation about who's in line to inherit could be totally off.