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Ravenkingsamurai

House Stark speculation: Artos and Rodrick Stark

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The other thing about the family tree is that the birth order appears to be off for Ned's generation, which means that it could be wrong for the other generations, which means our speculation about who's in line to inherit could be totally off.

If you look in the bottom corner of the tree, it points out that the birth orders are indeed not chronological among siblings, in order to make things fit better.

Note also that it is confirmed that Artos was never Lord of Winterfell, I asked GRRM.

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I've been trying to work out whether Nan's Brandon was Beron's son or William's son. Beron died about 213. Wiliam died in 226. The piece of info I'm trying to integrate is the fact that two of Nan's sons died in 283 at the Trident.

If Nan was wet nurse to Beron's son, she must have been around 15 in 213 (assuming Brandon to be Beron's youngest, and assuming latest possible birth for him.) Nan would have been born around 198, and be 40 in 238. If her sons were both born to her at that time, they would be 45 at the Trident. Any earlier birth (which would be much more likely) would make them even older. If she bore them at age 20-25 (in 218-223), they would be 60-65 years old at the Trident. It seems unlikely to me that Eddard would take men that old with him when he called his banners. The "Brandon was Beron's son" solution also contradicts Bran's story of Nan's own recollections. She claimed her "Brandon" was either Edwyle or William's son, though she might have been confused. The upside of the "Brandon was Beron's son" version is that the godswood smoochers could be Nan and Dunk.

If Nan's Brandon was William's son, that would make her own son's ages at the Trident younger by 13 or so years. Nan would be about 15 in 226, born in 211. If she bore her sons in her 20-25th year (231-236), they would be 47-52 years old at the battle, a much more likely figure.

This makes me lean heavily toward the "Nan's Brandon was William's son" solution, although that precludes Nan kissing Dunk.

Am I figuring this wrongly?

I think you are right. Old Nan's Brandon is William's son and he is probably a younger son because he was not called a Lord. He may be Artos' Brandon too but that does not make much difference. I think those two were around the same age. I don't think Old Nan kissed Dunk. That is a nice fan wish.

Bran Vras has a suggestion that Old Nan might be a wildling captured at the Battle of Longlake and I agree with that. I also think that the pregnant woman in Bran's vision was Old Nan, not the woman kissing Dunk. Her revenge was probably about that crow deceived her. She told Bran that all crows were liars.

So, Old Nan was probably with her own baby (maybe fathered by that lying crow) when she was hired to wetnurse baby Edwyle and baby Brandons.

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There is an interesting passage in A Clash of Kings that might be useful to bring some Starks into the right order:

Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord Jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight.

(A Clash of Kings, Bran VII)

Apparently the list goes chronologically back in time (leaving out some members like Rodrik and Errold). This suggests that Lord Donnor was an elder brother of Willam and Artos. Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell (likely the elder one, when he died, the lordship passed to Beron and his descendents) were the sons of Lord Brandon, who (given a chronological order) was the eldest son of Lord Cregan. And that's the point I'm getting confused. Why would Jonnel and Barth(ogan) become lords, when there are children of Brandon?

Maybe Jonnel and Barth(ogan) were elder than Brandon, proving the list not being chronological?

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