In light of the new Stark family tree: who are the she wolves of Winterfell.

[Lord Martin]

That last situation, probably. Names seem to be getting reused in Westeros often.

I guess though it makes for a much duller tale....

If it is incest, it could explain why the whole succession from Beron to William to Artos to Edwyle happened in such a bizzare way. Maybe Artos was removed from his position as Lord of Winterfell by some combinations of Lockes, Flints and/or Blackwoods that wanted to see Edwyle as Lord of Winterfell.

[Lord Martin]

I guess though it makes for a much duller tale....

If it is incest, it could explain why the whole succession from Beron to William to Artos to Edwyle happened in such a bizzare way. Maybe Artos was removed from his position as Lord of Winterfell by some combinations of Lockes, Flints and/or Blackwoods that wanted to see Edwyle as Lord of Winterfell.

oops, just saw this post: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/92904-early-stark-timeline-and-5-she-wolves/page-13 #258

So Artos was never Lord... that makes more sense. Edwyle must have been an infant during Long Lake.

[Mrs_Darcy]

I think I've said that a couple of times, but I'll repeat it either way:

I'd be surprised if the She-Wolves were only the widows of the actual Lords of Winterfell (i.e. the consorts of those Lords). Some of them certainly will belong to them, but the struggle GRRM is most likely going to be get across in the story is most likely not merely a squabble between women of various ages to try to find out who calls the shots.

Alys Karstark would have little reason to try to usurp the position of her daughter-in-law, for instance. Lorra Royce gave Beron six sons. Myriame Manderly could be jealous, I guess, but she doesn't have any sons of her own - which is why Beron became Lord in the first place. So she would have pretty much no means to take over Winterfell.

I imagine a squabble for succession between the two branches of House Stark:

On the one side would be the main line Starks (i.e. Cragan's line by Lynara Stark, who may still be alive, too), pitted against the descendants of the Norrey-Starks (through Cregan's son Rickon Stark, who was married to Jeyne Manderly - who may also be still alive).

The crucial development would have been Edric Stark's marriage to his cousin Serena Stark, which, in turn, could have put the thought in Serena/Edric's head that they had a better claim to Winterfell. I've also entertained the idea that Edric tried to usurp one of his brothers once, perhaps by declaring for Daemon during the First Blackfyre Rebellion, eventually leading to his death. Serena would have remained behind as an embittered widow, eventually jumping on the chance Beron's early death provides.

Serena has two sons of her own, after all, and her daughters were married to a Cerwyn and a Umber. If Beron's children are still very young at this time, whereas Serana's sons are men grown, things may get really touchy.

I really don't see what's the point of the whole Edric-Serena match in the family tree.

I think a hint of the conflict can be seen in the MUSH.

According to the MUSH, Rickon Stark, the son of Cregan Stark and Arra Norey is the firstborn son of CRegan Stark and therefore heir to Winterfell.

Rickon marries Jeyne Manderly and has two daughters Sansa and Serena.

Cregan then marries a Blackwood, who only gives him a daughter. This daughter later marries her Blackwood cousin Seth, who is heir to Raventree Hall.

I think, this implies, that she henceforth lives in the Riverlands as the future Lady Blackwood and is therefore no part of any conflict.

[in the WoIaF family tree the second wife of Cregan Stark is a Corbray, but since they do not have any children, there are no Starks from this line to contend for Winterfell]

Cregan then marries Lynara Stark, with whom he has four sons Brandon, Jonnel, Barth and Edric. (both in the MUSh and in the WoIaF family tree).

The interesting part is, that Lynara's eldest son Jonnel is listed as heir to Winterfell, whereas Sansa Stark would be considered the heiress of Winterfell as eldest child of the eldest son under normal inheritence law (Rickon was no issue then, because he had already died)

(In the MUSH and the family tree the sons have the same names, but in the Stark family tree Brandon seems to have been the oldest, since from his line comes Rickard Stark, whereas in the MUSH Jonnel is listed as heir to WF, who in the family has children of his own)

Brandon Stark, the next Lord of Winterfell is married to Alys Karstark.

So we probably have a conflict with the Norreys and Manderlys on one side and the relatives of Lynara Stark and the Karstarks on the other side.

[Lord Varys]

Yap.

My guess is that Sansa/Serena were passed over due to the fact that Cregan later married Lynara Stark. The reasoning may have been that Sansa/Serena were female, whereas the sons by Lynara were Starks on both sides. This would work perfectly if we assume that the Norey-Stark Rickon, the father of Sansa and Serena, predeceased Cregan (very likely due to the fact that Cregan reigned for a very long time).

The thing could become really tricky later on, if the Manderly widows in both branches were still alive later on and on opposing sides in the family feud...

[Mrs_Darcy]

Yap.

My guess is that Sansa/Serena were passed over due to the fact that Cregan later married Lynara Stark. The reasoning may have been that Sansa/Serena were female, whereas the sons by Lynara were Starks on both sides. This would work perfectly if we assume that the Norey-Stark Rickon, the father of Sansa and Serena, predeceased Cregan (very likely due to the fact that Cregan reigned for a very long time).

The thing could become really tricky later on, if the Manderly widows in both branches were still alive later on and on opposing sides in the family feud...

According to the MUSH Rickon Stark died in 157 in Sunspear at the age of 30.(probably something to do with a failed conquest of Dorne). At that time Cregan Stark is 50, Rickon's daughters are 7 and 5 and the oldest Stark son of Lynara is 7.

Cregan Stark's youngest son was born in 160, so Rickon had to predecease his father.

I think the issue was somehow resolved by Serena Stark marrying one of her uncles, Edric Stark, who had been born to Cregan by Lynara Stark, but it would probably have been best, if Brandon had married Sansa/Serena, which would have combined both claims.

My guess is that Myriame Manderly married Rodwell Stark, a son of Alys Karstark and Brandon Stark after the feud had been put to rest or as a means or ending the feud. I cannot imagine, that a Manderly would marry that close to the main line, if the issue had not been resolved by the time of the marriage.

I really regret, that the family tree does not mention the birth order, since Rodwell could very well have been the heir of Brandon Stark, since he had no children, that would indicate, whether his or his brother's children would inherit Winterfell

[Brother Seamus]

I think the issue was somehow resolved by Serena Stark marrying one of her uncles, Edric Stark, who had been born to Cregan by Lynara Stark, but it would probably have been best, if Brandon had married Sansa/Serena, which would have combined both claims.

I've just skimmed the thread, and this is all obviously wild speculation, but this is my guess: that the edric-serena marriage was a way to resolve the conflict by uniting the two branches.

but, what's the basis for assuming there was a conflict anyway?

but, if we're assuming the five she-wolves are women involved in an inter-family conflict following the long reign of Cregan Stark, then it makes sense that it's a conflict between the Rickon-Jeyne Manderly side and the children of Cregan and Lynarra Stark. In that case, there are nine candidates for the five:

On the Lynarra Stark side, separated by generation:

Lynarra Stark

Alys Karstark

Robin Ryswell

Myriame Manderly

Lorra Royce

Arsa Stark

On the Rickon/Jeyne Mnderly side:

Jeyne Manderly

Serena Stark

Sansa Stark

if we exclude Sansa and Serena as being too young, then that reduces it to seven; if Lynarra is too old (i.e. she has died; perhaps her death is what touches off the conflict, because she kept the peace while alive), that reduces it to six. My guess for the other of the six not to be active would be Myriame Manderly, since her kin was on the other side of the conflict. But, there are an infinite number of other possibilities. Can't wait to find out.

[Mrs_Darcy]

From the birth years, that are stated in the MUSH, it seems, that Starks (and most important the Stark heirs) have their first child, when they are about 20.

Rickon Stark was born in 88 (AC or AD), then had his heir Cregan in the year 108, who in turn had his first son Rickon in 128, who in turn had his first daughter Sansa in 150.

And Lynara Stark had her first son in 150 as well, when she was 19

Since Jonnel, Barth and Brandon are called Lord of Winterfell by Bran and the line is continuied by Brandon Stark, Brandon should have been the third-oldest.

In the MUSH he is listed as the younged, but since Edric's children did not inherit Winterfell, Edric probably is the youngest according to the Woiaf version.

This puts Brandon's birth-year around 160, which in turn puts Rodwell's or Arsa's birth-year around 180. (Since Rodwell is listed as Lord of Winterfell, he has to be older than his brother with children).

The oldest son of Beron Stark seems to be Donnor with William Stark coming after him. We know, that William Stark died in 226 at war and that by that time he had two children. Since his younger brother Artos took part in the battle, too and Willam already had two children by that time, I would guess he was born around the year 200.

Additionally, we know, that Willam's oldest grandchild Brandon Stark (Eddard Stark's older brother) was born in 261, which would go very nicely with the 20 year time difference between each Stark generation.

Given, that She-wolves is supposed to play around 215 I have come to the following conclusions:

-the Lord of Winterfell who is fast dying from a wound the Ironborn is either Beron or Donnor Stark

-the Skagoosi rebellion probably happened around that time, too killing either Beron or Donnor (whoever was not killed by the Ironborn)

-the Lord of Winterfell at that time seems to be Willam, who seems to be about 15

-Lorry Royce and Myriame Martell probaly are she-wolves

-maybe Arsa did not marry and is one she-wolf as well

-Serena Stark could be alive as well, since she would be in her sixties

-there are Alysanne and Berena Stark, the daughter of Lord Beron, but they are only children

-Serena's daughters Aregelle and Arrana probably are in their forties. Since Aregelle is married to a Cerwyn who reside close to Winterfell, she could play a part in the story as well.

-it would be interesting to know, whether Torrhen and Cregard Stark had any offspring

[Mrs_Darcy]

I've just skimmed the thread, and this is all obviously wild speculation, but this is my guess: that the edric-serena marriage was a way to resolve the conflict by uniting the two branches.

but, what's the basis for assuming there was a conflict anyway?

but, if we're assuming the five she-wolves are women involved in an inter-family conflict following the long reign of Cregan Stark, then it makes sense that it's a conflict between the Rickon-Jeyne Manderly side and the children of Cregan and Lynarra Stark. In that case, there are nine candidates for the five:

On the Lynarra Stark side, separated by generation:

Lynarra Stark

Alys Karstark

Robin Ryswell

Myriame Manderly

Lorra Royce

Arsa Stark

On the Rickon/Jeyne Mnderly side:

Jeyne Manderly

Serena Stark

Sansa Stark

if we exclude Sansa and Serena as being too young, then that reduces it to seven; if Lynarra is too old (i.e. she has died; perhaps her death is what touches off the conflict, because she kept the peace while alive), that reduces it to six. My guess for the other of the six not to be active would be Myriame Manderly, since her kin was on the other side of the conflict. But, there are an infinite number of other possibilities. Can't wait to find out.

The problem with this theory is that according to some sources the novella plays around 215. By that time Serena and Sansa would be in their sixties, so they are the only ones young enough to play a part in the story.

[Mithras]

-the Lord of Winterfell who is fast dying from a wound the Ironborn is either Beron or Donnor Stark

-the Skagoosi rebellion probably happened around that time, too killing either Beron or Donnor (whoever was not killed by the Ironborn)

-the Lord of Winterfell at that time seems to be Willam, who seems to be about 15

It is clearly stated that Beron was the Lord Stark dying from his wounds in TSS. Donnor should be his eldest yet not an adult himself. Also Donnor should die before 226 because William was the Lord at that time. I think the Skagosi Rebellion happened around 200 and Rodwell died without an issue in the fight.

[Mrs_Darcy]

It is clearly stated that Beron was the Lord Stark dying from his wounds in TSS. Donnor should be his eldest yet not an adult himself. Also Donnor should die before 226 because William was the Lord at that time. I think the Skagosi Rebellion happened around 200 and Rodwell died without an issue in the fight.

That could be true as well. Then it would be interesting to know, what Lord Donnor died of, given that he should have been quite young at the time of his death.

[The Sleeper]

Yes, Rickon Stark dying firts and leaving only girls would account for the succession being somewhat of a mess. I assumed that since it was Lynara's line that inherited, that it was the eldest branch. How much is MUSH canon?

[Mrs_Darcy]

Yes, Rickon Stark dying firts and leaving only girls would account for the succession being somewhat of a mess. I assumed that since it was Lynara's line that inherited, that it was the eldest branch. How much is MUSH canon?

Honestly, I am not really sure. In the MUSH the second wife of Cregan Stark is a Blackwood and not a Corbray (although this does not change much of the story). That would be a good question to ask Ran.

Tze said, that the newer versions of it are quite accurate, and the Stark family tree was last updated in June 2013.

But looking at the Stark family tree the idea, that Rickon Stark was the oldest of Cregan's children seems to have some merit, since his daughter Serena married his half-brother Edric.

What I do not understand is that by the time the She-wolves novella is supposed to play (215 AL) this conflict should have long been solved, since Sansa would have been in her sixties by that time.

[Lord Varys]

We should keep in mind that Beron's predecessor could also have died in the Spring. Only the Vale and Dorne escaped the plague, every other part of Westeros suffered, and one should expect that it would have hit Winterfell relatively hard (White Harbor, too, of course), since it was the capital of the North, and the place most people should visit who travel on the Kingsroad.

[Mrs_Darcy]

We should keep in mind that Beron's predecessor could also have died in the Spring. Only the Vale and Dorne escaped the plague, every other part of Westeros suffered, and one should expect that it would have hit Winterfell relatively hard (White Harbor, too, of course), since it was the capital of the North, and the place most people should visit who travel on the Kingsroad.

I think, that White Harbour was of the affected cities (Lannisport, WH, Oldtown, KL) the least affected. Being relatively remote and not having a high density of population the Great Spring Sickness should not have affected Winterfell as hard as the major holdfasts in the South.

Still, probably some Starks died of it.

[Mithras]

We should keep in mind that Beron's predecessor could also have died in the Spring. Only the Vale and Dorne escaped the plague, every other part of Westeros suffered, and one should expect that it would have hit Winterfell relatively hard (White Harbor, too, of course), since it was the capital of the North, and the place most people should visit who travel on the Kingsroad.

Actually this is a good suggestion. Beron's wife is a Royce and maybe he and his children stayed in the Vale during the Spring while his father Lord Brandon and his brother Rodwell died. This makes Jonnel and Barthogan the fighters in the Skagos Rebellion.

[Mrs_Darcy]

Actually this is a good suggestion. Beron's wife is a Royce and maybe he and his children stayed in the Vale during the Spring while his father Lord Brandon and his brother Rodwell died. This makes Jonnel and Barthogan the fighters in the Skagos Rebellion.

Could be, that would explain, why three out of four brothers ended up as Lord of Winterfell.

I find it strange though, that Jonnel Stark, who by that time was married and in his fifties did not manage to have at least one child.

Edited for spelling.

[Lord Varys]

And in any case - natural deaths should also occur from time to time.

Winter is coming, after all. And it should be especially hard in the North. At Ashford the spring has just begun, so another Lord Stark could have died a few years ago in the last winter.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

And in any case - natural deaths should also occur from time to time.

Winter is coming, after all. And it should be especially hard in the North. At Ashford the spring has just begun, so another Lord Stark could have died a few years ago in the last winter.

In a series like asoiaf, you'd almost forget :p

[Brother Seamus]

The problem with this theory is that according to some sources the novella plays around 215. By that time Serena and Sansa would be in their sixties, so they are the only ones young enough to play a part in the story.

The other problem with my explanation is that the children of Edrci and Serena didn't inherit the lordship. if the marriage didn't unite the line of succession it would serve no purpose. so I guess this can't be it.

it seems more likely then that the protagonists in the conflict are from the two generations starting with Beron's widow Lorra Royce. In that case it seems the possibilities are, divided by generations:

Lorra Royce

Myriame manderly

Lorra Royce

Arya Flint (Eddard's maternal grandmother)

Alysanne Stark

Melantha Blackwood

Lyanne Glover

Lyarra Stark (Eddard's mother)

Marna Locke (Eddard's paternal grandmother)

unknown daughter stark (daughter of William stark and melantha blackwood)

[Lord Varys]

My guess is that Edric - an elder son - was passed over because he may have declared for Daemon Blackfyre during the First Rebellion. Serena would have remained at Winterfell as an embittered widow, growing old and mean, and eventually trying to push things in her direction, when Beron's death gave her and her supporters an opening.

Beron was the last son of Brandon Stark - and all of Brandon's brothers must have been dead for him to inherit, anyway. Edric, too, although his children - especially his sons - would have come before Brandon and Brandon's sons. If he was not disinherited - which I assume he was.

Considering the fact that Beron had six sons, we have to assume that legally the succession was pretty much clear. To be interesting, the topic of the story should be both a struggle between women for dominance behind the scenes, but this would, in my opinion, only make sense if there were at least two factions with very different goals.

Say, one faction wants to continue Beron's line and raise his sons to prepare them for the rule. The other wants to get rid of Beron's children to install their own sons - Serena's sons by Edric, for instance - as Lords of Winterfell. Just a bunch of women squabbling about who is in charge would not be as interesting, since the children should then not be in any real danger...