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Ravenkingsamurai

In light of the new Stark family tree: who are the she wolves of Winterfell.

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It has prevously been assumed that She wolves were the wives of Beron Stark ( lord at the time of the Hedge knight,) Artos, Willem e.c.t. This was based on the ( now disproved) assumption that Beron was Artos' son and Edwyle ( Eddard's grandfather) was Berons son. Now it seems that Edwyle is a grandson, the son of Willem. Not only does this confuse the issue of who actually succeeded Beron ( Was Artos and Rodrick both regents for an infant Edwyle) or did Artos' rule in his own right, but also mostly discounts Willem and his siblings wives from being the she wolves. After all, Willem didn't die until 225 AC at longlake, while the Hedge knight series is currently 212 AC.



Here is the Stark family tree. Pay particular attention to Berons generation and his fathers generation.



http://edelweiss-assets.abovethetreeline.com/RH/supplemental/GRRM_WOIF_SellPacket_spreads-lowres.pdf



So then, here are some possible she-wolves:


1: Myriam Manderly, widow/wife of Rdwell Stark, Berons' brother.


2: Serena Stark, widow of Edric Stark.


3: Lorra Royce, Berons wife.


4: Robyn Ryswell, one-eyes jonnels' widow.


5: Jeyne Manderly, Serena's mother.


6: Wylla Fenn, not a wife, but still possibly influential as father to Berons half-brother Lonny.


7: Alys Karstark, Berons own mother?



Any other contenders? Are the she-wolves necessarily widows?


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I am not sure there is enough info to pin it down, especially with the tree not giving birth dates or birth order. I don't recall how much description was given of them, but I would think they could be widows of Starks, mothers of Starks, or daughters of Starks, and depending on how much in the future the next D&E takes place, there seems to be a lot of candidates


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The she-wolves are not restricted to mere Stark widows, there should be unmarried/widows Stark daughters and sisters among them, too. I imagine two parties among these women. Lorra Royce, Myriame Manderly, and Alys Karstark, if she is still alive, on the one side, and the wives/descendants of the Norrey-Starks on the other side (Jeyne Manderly, and her daughters and granddaughters).

For the background speculation stuff I reuse part of my post from the Artos thread.

Succession crisis speculation:

The MUSH appendix lists Edric Stark as second son of Lord Cregan by Lynara Stark. So he and his sons should have followed Lord Jonnel upon his death, rather than Barth, and eventually Brandon, the father of Rodwell and Beron.

My speculation is that Edric may have backed the wrong dragon during the Blackfyre Rebellion. It may be also somewhat striking that Edric married into the older Stark line of Rickon Stark - whose mother was Cregan's first wife Arra Norrey. This could indicate that Edric was overly ambitious, and he and his wife Serena Stark declared for Daemon hoping that a Blackfyre king would grant them and their sons Winterfell. That did not happen, but Serena, her sister Sansa, and her daughters Arrana and Aregelle may be some of the she-wolves of Winterfell from the future Dunk & Egg story. If they are still alive, they could have grown very embittered over the years, and may no try to take control of Winterfell against Lady Lorra Royce.

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The she-wolves are not restricted to mere Stark widows, there should be unmarried/widows Stark daughters and sisters among them, too. I imagine two parties among these women. Lorra Royce, Myriame Manderly, and Alys Karstark, if she is still alive, on the one side, and the wives/descendants of the Norrey-Starks on the other side (Jeyne Manderly, and her daughters and granddaughters).

For the background speculation stuff I reuse part of my post from the Artos thread.

Succession crisis speculation:

The MUSH appendix lists Edric Stark as second son of Lord Cregan by Lynara Stark. So he and his sons should have followed Lord Jonnel upon his death, rather than Barth, and eventually Brandon, the father of Rodwell and Beron.

My speculation is that Edric may have backed the wrong dragon during the Blackfyre Rebellion. It may be also somewhat striking that Edric married into the older Stark line of Rickon Stark - whose mother was Cregan's first wife Arra Norrey. This could indicate that Edric was overly ambitious, and he and his wife Serena Stark declared for Daemon hoping that a Blackfyre king would grant them and their sons Winterfell. That did not happen, but Serena, her sister Sansa, and her daughters Arrana and Aregelle may be some of the she-wolves of Winterfell from the future Dunk & Egg story. If they are still alive, they could have grown very embittered over the years, and may no try to take control of Winterfell against Lady Lorra Royce.

That's pretty good. However, MUSH ranges from canon, to semi-canon to complete non canon. Does this new family tree corroborate this theory?

Oh,also-what happened to Tohrren and Cregard, Edrics' sons?

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The she-wolves are not restricted to mere Stark widows, there should be unmarried/widows Stark daughters and sisters among them, too. I imagine two parties among these women. Lorra Royce, Myriame Manderly, and Alys Karstark, if she is still alive, on the one side, and the wives/descendants of the Norrey-Starks on the other side (Jeyne Manderly, and her daughters and granddaughters).

Yes, that's how I imagine it too.

Succession crisis speculation:

The MUSH appendix lists Edric Stark as second son of Lord Cregan by Lynara Stark. So he and his sons should have followed Lord Jonnel upon his death, rather than Barth, and eventually Brandon, the father of Rodwell and Beron.

Here, I disagree with you. IMHO, it is not unlikely that Edric's sons would have predeceased Lord Jonnel. Either that, or they were young, Barth usurped them and they died before him. "Blacksword" doesn't sound like a nice moniker to me. Anyway, Serena would still feel that first she herself and then her daughters were unjustly passed over and try to rectify the situation.

Re: Beron's children, he has a boatload of them, but it occurred to me that future Lord Donnor doesn't have to be the eldest son by birth, just the eldest that survived. He should be a pretty young child at the time of the succession crisis for it to become a thing, IMHO. And, of course, Lorra Royce not being a northerner probably played into it, by substantially weakening her potential authority as a regent vis-a-vis other women of the family.

Oh, and BTW we now know for sure that third Stark sons don't necessarily go to the NW, because Willam, Artos and Roderik the Wandering Wolf were all married with kids.

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There's this report in the SSM:


He mentioned something about five Lady Starks running Winterfell -- the Wolf Women or something like that -- with four of them widows of a bunch of fairly recent former Lord Starks, and the current Lady Stark, whose 30-something husband is fading fast from a wound taken from fighting the Ironborn.



If we rely on the report, then four of the She-Wolves should be widows of late lord Starks. Going backwards, it should be:


  1. Lorra Royce, Beron's widow (mother of eight, including the heir to Winterfell)
  2. Myriame Manderly, Rodwell's widow (childless)
  3. Robyn Ryswell, One-eyed Jonnel's widow (childless)
  4. Alys Karstark, Brandon's widow (Beron's mother, Lorra's mother in-law)

It fits quite well, since Barth Blacksword was unmarried, and Cregan is probably too distant in time.



The most likely candidate for the fifth missing spot, I'd venture, would be Arsa Stark: Beron's sister.


I've just noticed that the fifth is also a lady stark!. Mmm. I guess Lord Cregan's last wife could easily still be alive, if he married a young woman in his late days.


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That tidbit does sound like a vague recollection, or so. I'm pretty sure we'll also see Serena Stark, possibly her sister, and daughters. It's very likely that this story grew in the telling, as the Stark family tree did. I'd not take it a given that there five former Lady Starks in the sense that they were all the wives of Lords of Winterfell. It's easily imaginable that some will turn out to be sisters or daughters of dead Lords (or their sons).


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Well, the submitter is Yaghatai, so I'd tend to give credit to the report. But of course, as you say, Martin could have changed/expanded the ideas he had in 2006.



But on the other hand... the MUSH has Lynara Stark's birthdate in 131 (she's Cregan's last wife, 23 years younger than him). That would made her in her early eighties during the D&E tales. The fact that the Family Tree precisely gives the name of the last five Lady Starks, and that all of them should be alive during the particular time period, makes me believe that Lorra, Myriame, Robyn, Alys and Lynara are indeed the five She-wolves.



What happened to the offspring of Rickon Stark and whether there was "A Dance of Wolves" in the past is, of course, an interesting question that still needs to be answered. I just don't think that this branch is involved in ruling Winterfell during the D&E period.


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They left out the important part of the family tree!





“No,” Catelyn agreed. “You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son.”

She considered a moment. “Your father’s father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who


married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters,

all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest... it

might have been a Templeton, but...”



No mention of the "Stark daughter" highlighted in blue... I hope they won't leave it as it is, unfinished :(

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I just think it's interesting and neat that Ned's grandfather is the Wandering Wolf, and Arya is named after his grandmother of the First Flints. Even if they were cousins.


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There's this report in the SSM:

He mentioned something about five Lady Starks running Winterfell -- the Wolf Women or something like that -- with four of them widows of a bunch of fairly recent former Lord Starks, and the current Lady Stark, whose 30-something husband is fading fast from a wound taken from fighting the Ironborn.

If we rely on the report, then four of the She-Wolves should be widows of late lord Starks. Going backwards, it should be:

  1. Lorra Royce, Beron's widow (mother of eight, including the heir to Winterfell)

Myriame Manderly, Rodwell's widow (childless)

Robyn Ryswell, One-eyed Jonnel's widow (childless)

Alys Karstark, Brandon's widow (Beron's mother, Lorra's mother in-law)

It fits quite well, since Barth Blacksword was unmarried, and Cregan is probably too distant in time.

The most likely candidate for the fifth missing spot, I'd venture, would be Arsa Stark: Beron's sister.

I've just noticed that the fifth is also a lady stark!. Mmm. I guess Lord Cregan's last wife could easily still be alive, if he married a young woman in his late days.

Wow, Beron was only 30 something and had 8 children already? I said it before, but I'll say it again, that guy was a busy dude!

They left out the important part of the family tree!

No mention of the "Stark daughter" highlighted in blue... I hope they won't leave it as it is, unfinished :(

But that part won't have any effect on the She-Wovles situation, right?

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I don't think the Edric-Norrey-Starks are in charge, I think they may trying to use Beron's death to try to take Winterfell over. I imagine one could compare it to, say, Arnolf's attempt to take over House Karstark after Rickard's execution.



And I did not doubt the content of the SSM per se, I just thing it's admittedly from a conversation about the broad strokes of the story, not necessarily GRRM explaining who exactly is going to show up. And technically all the unmarred/widowed Stark sisters/daughters would also qualify as 'Lady Stark', although not necessarily as Dowager Ladies of Winterfell...



Just widows of previous Lord Starks should not really have issues with Beron's wife, especially not Beron's mother or grandmother...


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They left out the important part of the family tree!

No mention of the "Stark daughter" highlighted in blue... I hope they won't leave it as it is, unfinished :(

Perhaps its a WOW spoiler? Although i admit that Lyn Corbary, symon templeton being possible heirs is...interesting.

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Another question for you all: after these possible Vale heirs, which Northern house has would be heir to Winterfell if the Starks were to die out? Which of the Northern lords Robb Stark takes south are actually his cousins?


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Another question for you all: after these possible Vale heirs, which Northern house has would be heir to Winterfell if the Starks were to die out? Which of the Northern lords Robb Stark takes south are actually his cousins?

We simply do not have enough information at this point to tell.

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Wow, Beron was only 30 something and had 8 children already? I said it before, but I'll say it again, that guy was a busy dude!

Not so busy- if we assume that he married young (say 15/16 for the sake of argument), which as the heir he likely did, then he would need to have one child every 1 and half year (roughly- say two years for the sake of argument). Especially if he and his wife were one of those couples that just needed to look at each other for five minutes to get pregnant (that is, both were highly fertile) and/or both were highly amorous, then I see no real problem to them having so many children.

Actually, the one that I'm a little surprised didn't have more children were Eddard and Catelyn- they were married for about 13 years and only had five children- considering that Robb was conceived on their wedding night, I would presume that that suggest that one or both were quite fertile.

But, on an unrelated note, I do wonder if Beron's wife, being the mother of so many Starks in a time of crisis, was able to translate that into a greater deal of political authority/influence during the time of the She-Wolves? After all, it is most likely that one of her line will eventually be Lord Stark in fact as well as name.

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Not so busy- if we assume that he married young (say 15/16 for the sake of argument), which as the heir he likely did, then he would need to have one child every 1 and half year (roughly- say two years for the sake of argument). Especially if he and his wife were one of those couples that just needed to look at each other for five minutes to get pregnant (that is, both were highly fertile) and/or both were highly amorous, then I see no real problem to them having so many children.

Actually, the one that I'm a little surprised didn't have more children were Eddard and Catelyn- they were married for about 13 years and only had five children- considering that Robb was conceived on their wedding night, I would presume that that suggest that one or both were quite fertile.

But, on an unrelated note, I do wonder if Beron's wife, being the mother of so many Starks in a time of crisis, was able to translate that into a greater deal of political authority/influence during the time of the She-Wolves? After all, it is most likely that one of her line will eventually be Lord Stark in fact as well as name.

The thing is that heirs only seem to get married young when there is absolute need to do so. If not, they get married somewhat older. Brandon would have gotten married at the age of 20, while his wife to be was 18. Both had been of age for a while, and had been betrothed for about 6 years. Look at Edmure as another example. He was in his late 20ies/early 30ies when he got married, the last male of his line, and even then he did not seem to be in such a hurry to get married. Doran Martell, as another example, also got married halfway in his twenties. Elia and Rhaegar were betrothed when they were 19/20 years old. All happened during peace times.

In a situation like this, Beron would have gotten married around the age of 20/25. And with 8 kids in about 15 years, that's a lot. His wife would have been pregnant half of the time.

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What I found most curious was the seeming lack of marriages between the Starks and the Boltons. I would have thought that some intermarriage would have occured between the two possibly most ancient Houses of Firrst Men descent.


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What I found most curious was the seeming lack of marriages between the Starks and the Boltons. I would have thought that some intermarriage would have occured between the two possibly most ancient Houses of Firrst Men descent.

I dont think any other house in the North likes the Boltons, who in return were pretty isolationist. And i think the Starks were still peeved about Bolton kings skinning Stark kings for shields.

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The Hightowers and other Southron First Men houses should be older. The First Men came to Westeros via the Arm of Dorne, and this very much indicates that they first settled in the Southern regions, which, in turn, may indicate that the Hightowers, Blackwoods, and Royces are considerably older than the houses of the North...



The marriages with powerful Southern First Men houses suggests that the Starks really did tried to marry their equals, rather than their own bannermen.


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