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Ravenkingsamurai

In light of the new Stark family tree: who are the she wolves of Winterfell.

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The Hightowers and other Southron First Men houses should be older. The First Men came to Westeros via the Arm of Dorne, and this very much indicates that they first settled in the Southern regions, which, in turn, may indicate that the Hightowers, Blackwoods, and Royces are considerably older than the houses of the North...

The marriages with powerful Southern First Men houses suggests that the Starks really did tried to marry their equals, rather than their own bannermen.

I think it suggests southron ambitions.

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I dont think any other house in the North likes the Boltons, who in return were pretty isolationist. And i think the Starks were still peeved about Bolton kings skinning Stark kings for shields.

To start with the Boltons don't seem more isolanitistic than anyone else. Roose sent Domeric to squire down with lord Redfort in the Vale.

Also while I can get the sense that the Starks might remember that the Boltons had the audacity to offer them resistance I would think that tempers had cooled over a thousand years or so.

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What I found most curious was the seeming lack of marriages between the Starks and the Boltons. I would have thought that some intermarriage would have occured between the two possibly most ancient Houses of Firrst Men descent.

I'd be very surprised if there was never a marriage between a Bolton and a Stark. Probably just none in the recent history, I guess.

The Hightowers and other Southron First Men houses should be older. The First Men came to Westeros via the Arm of Dorne, and this very much indicates that they first settled in the Southern regions, which, in turn, may indicate that the Hightowers, Blackwoods, and Royces are considerably older than the houses of the North...

The marriages with powerful Southern First Men houses suggests that the Starks really did tried to marry their equals, rather than their own bannermen.

People settled in the South first, true enough. But they didn't necessarily make Houses.

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It surely did. There have been Kings among the First Men - the Starks, the Darklyn, the Hightowers, Ironborn kings, etc. It really makes no sense to assume that the Hightowers are younger/of the same age as the Starks, when the village that eventually grew into Oldtown certainly belongs to the earliest settlements the First Men established north/west of the Red Mountains. But some Dornish houses may be older still - the Yronwoods, the Daynes, etc.


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House Hightower, Dayne, and others are likely older then the Starks. The First Men though likely did not have houses as we know them now. Based on the Northern Mountain Clans, Mountain Clans of the Vale, and the Wildlings, I'd wager that the First Men before the arrival of the Andals was more clan based.

As for the Starks marriage with First Men houses in the South, I see that as a rather smart choice. First they grant these houses a strong ally to defend themselves in keeping to the Old Gods should those that worship the Seven try and force them to convert. Second, it grants them powerful allies on their borders against the kingdoms, lords that threaten them the most. A Stark married to a Royce, forces the Arryns to worry about the Royce's siding with the Starks should there be a conflict. Same with the Riverlands. It's extra security for the North, and the South can't really do that. They can marry the Manderlys but the Manderlys are very much in need of Stark support, and they seemed to be looked down by those in the south more than the North.

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Also regarding Bolton-Stark matrimony, Bran says in AGoT/ACoK that some of the Kings of Winter had done terrible things. Not out of character with Bolton offspring, aye?



And it's also fair to say that not every Bolton is a psycho. Domeric seemed cool enough. I guess there are two ways of looking at it, they are similar to Targs in that they stray closely to madness, although it's not clear how incestuous they are. Or they're like the Dothraki, and they have a tradition and culture that by our standards and those of many characters in the books, is immoral, but in terms of characters within that culture, some are considered more immoral than others, i.e. Drogo is not, while Quotho (?) is.



It's also worth noting that maybe the Boltons just repeatedly lived out of sync with the Starks in WF, age wise? If each generation of sons and daughters tended to be born at times differing by a certain amount, then the Starks wouldn't be wedding Boltons purely because they just wouldn't be considered because of age, or at least not in preference to a suitably aged Glover or Umber.



Also, it's probably already been said, but I reckon the Greystarks were born of a Bolton mother.


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The "She-Wolves of Winterfell" are stated to be four Stark widows, with a fifth on the way because the current Lord Beron Stark is dying from wounds he took fighting Dagon Greyjoy's ironborn.

There were a lot of problems under do-nothing king Aerys I. The Great Spring Sickness had killed his father, famine even in the Reach had in turn led to frequent localized wars and brigandage, the ironborn under Dagon seized on the opportunity to start raiding the mainland again, and in the North, there was another major invasion of wildlings led by King-Beyond-the-Wall Raymun Redbeard...add to this a rebellion on Skagos which claimed the life of one Stark lord and hundreds of his men, as well as continued Blackfyre Rebellions (we don't know much about the third and fourth rebellions). Though once Maekar ascended the throne he did start setting things to rights, but this took time.

The thing that struck me as odd, though, is that when Raymun Redbeard was defeated in the Battle of the Long Lake, he killed William Stark who was succeeded by his brother Artos Stark....and these were both, apparently, SONS of Lord Beron.

I had for a long time assumed that if the novella was going to be about "many Stark lords died in rapid succession" that the Raymun Rebeard invasion would be part of it; but apparently that happened afterwards?

So of the other four, a Skagos rebellion took one of them, but William Stark apparently wasn't one.

Perhaps one died in the first Blackfyre Rebellion.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure if any where Cregan Stark's wives; Cregan ruled for something like forty years, apparently beginning as a child during the Dance of the Dragons c. 130 AL, but it would be impressive if he died around 200-210 AL....maybe earlier if his widows survived him. It turns out that Cregan was married *three* times, two of which produced children.

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The "She-Wolves of Winterfell" are stated to be four Stark widows, with a fifth on the way because the current Lord Beron Stark is dying from wounds he took fighting Dagon Greyjoy's ironborn.

There were a lot of problems under do-nothing king Aerys I. The Great Spring Sickness had killed his father, famine even in the Reach had in turn led to frequent localized wars and brigandage, the ironborn under Dagon seized on the opportunity to start raiding the mainland again, and in the North, there was another major invasion of wildlings led by King-Beyond-the-Wall Raymun Redbeard...add to this a rebellion on Skagos which claimed the life of one Stark lord and hundreds of his men, as well as continued Blackfyre Rebellions (we don't know much about the third and fourth rebellions). Though once Maekar ascended the throne he did start setting things to rights, but this took time.

The Skagos Rebellion seems to have occured 100 years ago, which places it during the reign of Daeron I, not Aerys I

We don't know how many Blackfyre Rebellions there have been, though it seems there were at least 4. They could have happened during any reign up until Jaehaerys II, though, not specifically during the reign of Aerys I.

The thing that struck me as odd, though, is that when Raymun Redbeard was defeated in the Battle of the Long Lake, he killed William Stark who was succeeded by his brother Artos Stark....and these were both, apparently, SONS of Lord Beron.

Artos is not specifically stated at having been a Lord of Winterfell.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure if any where Cregan Stark's wives; Cregan ruled for something like forty years, apparently beginning as a child during the Dance of the Dragons c. 130 AL, but it would be impressive if he died around 200-210 AL....maybe earlier if his widows survived him. It turns out that Cregan was married *three* times, two of which produced children.

Where are you getting Cregan´s death and 40 year rule from?

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Raymun Redbeard's invasion was in the middle of _Maekar's_ reign, wasn't it? And Dagon was dealt with by the royal fleet during Aerys I's reign, after the Blackfyre thread was reduced, for a time. Not sure if there was anything for Maekar "to set to rights". In fact, given that he died fighting an outlaw lord, it seems that he had troubles of his own.

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Raymun Redbeard's invasion was in the middle of _Maekar's_ reign, wasn't it? And Dagon was dealt with by the royal fleet during Aerys I's reign, after the Blackfyre thread was reduced, for a time. Not sure if there was anything for Maekar "to set to rights". In fact, given that he died fighting an outlaw lord, it seems that he had troubles of his own.

Raymund breached the Wall in 226AC, during Maekars reign.

The stuff with Dagon happens in 212/213AC, so indeed during Aerys' reign.

When Maekar died it had been 21 years since the last Blackfyre Rebellion. Perhaps the lord who killed him was rebelling because he was fighting in a Blackfyre Rebellion. It would not surprise me, anyway. But for now, there is no textual proof for it.

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The Skagos Rebellion seems to have occured 100 years ago, which places it during the reign of Daeron I, not Aerys I

We don't know how many Blackfyre Rebellions there have been, though it seems there were at least 4. They could have happened during any reign up until Jaehaerys II, though, not specifically during the reign of Aerys I.

Artos is not specifically stated at having been a Lord of Winterfell.

Where are you getting Cregan´s death and 40 year rule from?

We know he ruled a long time since he ruled at least from the Dance of the dragons and was still alive during the reign of Aegon IV where prince Aemon described him as a great swordsman.

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We know he ruled a long time since he ruled at least from the Dance of the dragons and was still alive during the reign of Aegon IV where prince Aemon described him as a great swordsman.

I don't think the reign during which they fought was ever described, was it? Aemon was knighted during the reign of Daeron I at the latest, and would have been free to fight Cregan from 161 until 184 at the latest. That's a gap of 23 years during which the fight could have taken place, potentially. Cregan wouldn't necessarily have been that old..

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Bran's ultimate chapter in the ACOK where he emereges from the crypts to find Winterfell burned gives a reverse chronological order of lord Starks as they toward the exit. The lord in question in the D&E stories is Beron and those preceding him are Rodwell (his brother), Jonnel (his uncle), Barth (also his uncle) and Brandon (his father). Their widows would be, given that there is no spouse mentioned for Barth, repsectively Myriame Manderly, Robyn Ryswell, and Alys Karstark and a She-Wolf would also be Beron's wife Lorra Royce. Which leaves one more.



One thing to notice is that two uncles apparently reigned as lords before the sons (of Brandon son of Cregan). This does not indicate a smooth succession suggesting usurpations and/or assasinations. Second, it would make more sense if Lynara Stark was the first wife as it was her sons who inherited. As such the posiible fifth She-Wolf could be Arra Norey who tries to exploit the opportunity of Beron's vulnerablity to seat her own son.


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I think I've said that a couple of times, but I'll repeat it either way:



I'd be surprised if the She-Wolves were only the widows of the actual Lords of Winterfell (i.e. the consorts of those Lords). Some of them certainly will belong to them, but the struggle GRRM is most likely going to be get across in the story is most likely not merely a squabble between women of various ages to try to find out who calls the shots.



Alys Karstark would have little reason to try to usurp the position of her daughter-in-law, for instance. Lorra Royce gave Beron six sons. Myriame Manderly could be jealous, I guess, but she doesn't have any sons of her own - which is why Beron became Lord in the first place. So she would have pretty much no means to take over Winterfell.



I imagine a squabble for succession between the two branches of House Stark:



On the one side would be the main line Starks (i.e. Cragan's line by Lynara Stark, who may still be alive, too), pitted against the descendants of the Norrey-Starks (through Cregan's son Rickon Stark, who was married to Jeyne Manderly - who may also be still alive).



The crucial development would have been Edric Stark's marriage to his cousin Serena Stark, which, in turn, could have put the thought in Serena/Edric's head that they had a better claim to Winterfell. I've also entertained the idea that Edric tried to usurp one of his brothers once, perhaps by declaring for Daemon during the First Blackfyre Rebellion, eventually leading to his death. Serena would have remained behind as an embittered widow, eventually jumping on the chance Beron's early death provides.



Serena has two sons of her own, after all, and her daughters were married to a Cerwyn and a Umber. If Beron's children are still very young at this time, whereas Serana's sons are men grown, things may get really touchy.



I really don't see what's the point of the whole Edric-Serena match in the family tree.


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There is nothing that says that all of them should be enemies. For instance Alys Karstark could be supporting her daughter-in law and her grandchildren. And not all of them involved for gain. Some could well be out for revenge. Yes, sisters (or mistresses) could be involved as well, but I'm going on the assumption that is pertains to widows as per the SSM. One way this could work is that Arra Norey seeing that her son has not produced any sons of his own pushes for the marriage between her grandaughter and stepson to create a more viable claim for her bloodline.



The way I see it in my head however is that Arra Norey and therefore her son are considerably younger than Lynara Stark's sons which should make Serena unlikely to have grown-up or close to grown-up children at the time. The Edric-Serena match could be a way to sitfle the Norey branch and any ambitions it might have.



The thing that seems problematic is how all those would be allowed to remain in Winterfell. For instance if Jonnel and Barth did usurp Brandon's sons, why would they be allowd to remain in Winterfell once Rodwell and Beron rose to power?



ETA Another point of the Edric/Serena family tree could be unrelated to the She-Wolves and be to demonstrate relaionships between the Starks and other houses in the North.


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Am I reading this right or is Lorra Royce listed as both the wife of Beron Stark and their first born son, Artos?



Is some mother/son incest being stated here? Or did they both happen to marry women with the same maiden names?


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