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Ravenkingsamurai

In light of the new Stark family tree: who are the she wolves of Winterfell.

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My guess is that Edric - an elder son - was passed over because he may have declared for Daemon Blackfyre during the First Rebellion. Serena would have remained at Winterfell as an embittered widow, growing old and mean, and eventually trying to push things in her direction, when Beron's death gave her and her supporters an opening.



Beron was the last son of Brandon Stark - and all of Brandon's brothers must have been dead for him to inherit, anyway. Edric, too, although his children - especially his sons - would have come before Brandon and Brandon's sons. If he was not disinherited - which I assume he was.



Considering the fact that Beron had six sons, we have to assume that legally the succession was pretty much clear. To be interesting, the topic of the story should be both a struggle between women for dominance behind the scenes, but this would, in my opinion, only make sense if there were at least two factions with very different goals.



Say, one faction wants to continue Beron's line and raise his sons to prepare them for the rule. The other wants to get rid of Beron's children to install their own sons - Serena's sons by Edric, for instance - as Lords of Winterfell. Just a bunch of women squabbling about who is in charge would not be as interesting, since the children should then not be in any real danger...


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My guess is that Edric - and elder son - was passed over because he may have declared for Daemon Blackfyre during the First Rebellion. Serena would have remained at Winterfell as an embittered widow, growing old and mean, and eventually trying to push things in her direction eventually, when Beron's death gave her and her supporters an opening.

Beron was the last son of Brandon Stark - and all of Brandon's brothers must have been dead for him to inherit, anyway. Edric, too, although his children - especially his sons - would have come before Brandon and Brandon's sons. If he was not disinherited - which I assume he was.

Considering the fact that Beron had six sons, we have to assume that legally the succession was pretty much clear. To be interesting, the topic of the story should be both a struggle between women for dominance behind the scenes, but this would, in my opinion, only make sense if there were at least two factions with very different goals.

Say, one faction wants to continue Beron's line and raise his sons to prepare them for the rule. The other wants to get rid of Beron's children to install their own sons - Serena's sons by Edric, for instance - as Lords of Winterfell. Just a bunch of women squabbling about who is in charge would not be as interesting, since the children should then not be in any real danger...

The conflict should be something like that. What really interests me, is if Serena's sons Cregard and Torrhen are still alive and whether they have children of their own to make a claim.

Otherwise the biggest threat should come from Aregelle Stark, who is Serena's daughter and married to a Cerwyn.

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It would really fit story-wise if Egg came from incognito listening to the ramblings of a former rebel (TSS), to being crucial in foiling another Blackfyre Rebellion (TMK) to sitting openly in judgment over a succession issue going back to the First Blackfyre Rebellion.



I'm pretty sure that Dunk & Egg will not be able keep Egg's identity a secret for long after they arrive at Winterfell. And it's easily possible that Egg offers his help in resolving whatever is going as neutral third party.



The fact that the names of the families into which Serena's daughters have married are given, too. That could be a hint that Serena's party will have the Umbers and the Cerwyns backing her claimants, whereas Lorra Royce may have no powerful allies in the North.



And it would also be interesting to see the Manderlys - represented by Myriame, and an ancient Jeyne Manderly - split between two factions of Starks. The Karstarks would also back Lorra, I guess. But if Serena would control House Cerwyn through her daughter Aregelle, she could rather easily try to stake a sort of silent coup in Winterfell, by taking over the castle with the help of close-by Cerwyn levies.


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Just a bunch of women squabbling about who is in charge would not be as interesting

A bunch of women squabbling about who is in charge can be very interesting!

Seriously, though, I'm inclined to trust the 2006 report saying that all the five She-wolves were the current lady Stark and the widows of former lords Stark. That would exclude Edric's wife as one of the she-wolves, as he was never a Lord. The tree shows the name of those five lades: Lorra Royce, Myriame Manderly, Alys Karstark, Robyn Ryswell, and Lynara Stark (birthdate according to the MUSH 131 AC, so potentially still alive by D&E stories).

There's still room for lots of drama, specially if Edric's descendants represent an external menace for the young children of Beron to inherit. Myriame Manderly could easily be secretly working against the interests of Winterfell, since the other side's claimants have Manderly blood while she didn't manage to produce offspring from Rodwell.

I like the idea that Edric could have been excluded from the succession for supporting the Black Dragon, but if so, wouldn't it be weird that the next lord in line received the nickname "Blacksword"?

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The thing is, the report makes it appear as if former Ladies of Winterfell were meant, when in fact it could just be a bunch of other Stark widows. I could easily see GRRM not being overly precise there. Especially since we should keep in mind that unmarried/widowed Stark daughters would live at Winterfell in any case. And Stark daughters married to other Starks - Serena, Lynara, Lyarra - would never leave Winterfell at all.



Considering the size of Winterfell, my guess is that many younger sons of the Starks (and their families) lived in Winterfell anyway. The same is the case with another huge castle (Casterly Rock).



I really can't Serena (or Sansa) not playing a role in this whole thing, if any of them is still alive.



Edric/Serena backing the Blackfyres could have something to with the fact that Serena's father - the original heir of Lord Cregan - died during the Conquest of Dorne in 157 AC. A lot of the guys at court did not like the Dornish influence during the reign of Daeron II, and I guess that would make Serena/Sansa somewhat biased against the king who let Dorne into the Realm peacefully (and let that those Dornishmen whisper into his ear).



Barth's moniker has a Blackfyresque ring to it, I admit as much. But he was a Lord of Winterfell - so either he declared for Daemon (unlikely, in my opinion), or his name has a different origin.



I don't want to downplay women squabbles, but I really think if there is no threat to Beron's children (i.e. rival claimants) involved in this whole thing, then it would simply be go down to evil mother/grandmother-in-law does not like (grand-)daughter-in-law. There isn't even a strife possible like the thing between Ellyn and Jeyne Lannister - simply because the only adult male Stark is dying/dead.



And Lorra Royce has the huge advantage that she has given birth to eight children. She has done exactly what's expected of a noblewoman in Westeros, so especially Beron's mother Alys and his grandmother Lynara should be proud of Lorra. Myriame Manderly could have reason to jealous, but since she doesn't have children of her own, she would not have that much influence, I guess.



Serena Stark, on the other hand, has four children of her own, two sons among them. If they are already men grown, this could be really interesting. Her sons by Edric would be Stark on both sides - like Lynara's sons, who apparently came before her - so she could really try to play this card against Lorra's half-Southron sons...


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The thing is, the report makes it appear as if former Ladies of Winterfell were meant, when in fact it could just be a bunch of other Stark widows. I could easily see GRRM not being overly precise there. Especially since we should keep in mind that unmarried/widowed Stark daughters would live at Winterfell in any case. And Stark daughters married to other Starks - Serena, Lynara, Lyarra - would never leave Winterfell at all.

Considering the size of Winterfell, my guess is that many younger sons of the Starks (and their families) lived in Winterfell anyway. The same is the case with another huge castle (Casterly Rock).

I really can't Serena (or Sansa) not playing a role in this whole thing, if any of them is still alive.

Edric/Serena backing the Blackfyres could have something to with the fact that Serena's father - the original heir of Lord Cregan - died during the Conquest of Dorne in 157 AC. A lot of the guys at court did not like the Dornish influence during the reign of Daeron II, and I guess that would make Serena/Sansa somewhat biased against the king who let Dorne into the Realm peacefully (and let that those Dornishmen whisper into his ear).

Barth's moniker has a Blackfyresque ring to it, I admit as much. But he was a Lord of Winterfell - so either he declared for Daemon (unlikely, in my opinion), or his name has a different origin.

I don't want to downplay women squabbles, but I really think if there is no threat to Beron's children (i.e. rival claimants) involved in this whole thing, then it would simply be go down to evil mother/grandmother-in-law does not like (grand-)daughter-in-law. There isn't even a strife possible like the thing between Ellyn and Jeyne Lannister - simply because the only adult male Stark is dying/dead.

And Lorra Royce has the huge advantage that she has given birth to eight children. She has done exactly what's expected of a noblewoman in Westeros, so especially Beron's mother Alys and his grandmother Lynara should be proud of Lorra. Myriame Manderly could have reason to jealous, but since she doesn't have children of her own, she would not have that much influence, I guess.

Serena Stark, on the other hand, has four children of her own, two sons among them. If they are already men grown, this could be really interesting. Her sons by Edric would be Stark on both sides - like Lynara's sons, who apparently came before her - so she could really try to play this card against Lorra's half-Southron sons...

Serena Stark's children are definitely women and men grown. According to the MUSH she was born in 152, so if the novella plays in 215, then she is 62 at that time.

Assuming, that she had her youngest child, when she was 40 (which is a very generous estimation, since Catelyn Stark worried about her decreasing fertility, when she in her mid-thirties, then her youngest child at least would be in his/her early twenties.

Since most women tend to get their first child around twenty, the oldest child could even be in his/her forties.

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The marriages with powerful Southern First Men houses suggests that the Starks really did tried to marry their equals, rather than their own bannermen.

True.. But another interesting note is that among the Nothern houses, the Starks seemed to have contracted he most marriages with the Manderlys.. Among the Northern houses, we saw that the Starks intermarried with (1) Umber, (1) Cerwyn, (1) Ryswell, (1) Glover, (1) Karstark, 1 (Norrey), (1) Locke, (1) Flint and (2) Manderly while with the houses from the south we see Starks intermarried with (1) Cobray, (1) Blackwood and (2) Royce..

It seems that the Starks have intermarried most with the Manderlys and Royces, two of the most powerful second-tier houses with the Manderlys being the most powerful major noble house in the North after the Starks and Royces being the most powerful major noble house in the Vale after the Arryns.. also probably explains why both Wyman Manderly and Yohn Royce are two of the most staunch Stark loyalist..

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True.. But another interesting note is that among the Nothern houses, the Starks seemed to have contracted he most marriages with the Manderlys.. Among the Northern houses, we saw that the Starks intermarried with (1) Umber, (1) Cerwyn, (1) Ryswell, (1) Glover, (1) Karstark, 1 (Norrey), (1) Locke, (1) Flint and (2) Manderly while with the houses from the south we see Starks intermarried with (1) Cobray, (1) Blackwood and (2) Royce..

It seems that the Starks have intermarried most with the Manderlys and Royces, two of the most powerful second-tier houses with the Manderlys being the most powerful major noble house in the North after the Starks and Royces being the most powerful major noble house in the Vale after the Arryns.. also probably explains why both Wyman Manderly and Yohn Royce are two of the most staunch Stark loyalist..

I think, that the second Manderly marriage was a compensation for the fact, that Rickon Stark's daughters were overlooked in the succession of Winterfell in favor of their uncles.

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I know that this might be a crackpot theory but it is not totaly impossible.. I am thinking that the first Sansa Stark, the daughter of Lord Rickon Stark and Lady Jeyne Manderly.. Sansa was the grandaughter of Cregan Stark, Lord of Winterfell who supported Queen Rhaenyra Targaryen's claim.. Lady Sansa's mother was Lady Jeyne Manderly and we all know that the Manderlys were also one the staunchest supporters of Queen Rhaenyra's claim.. I think it would be wise for Aegon III to marry his eldest son and heir to the daughter of 2 of his mothers most loyal supporters, both very powerful houses to booth..

Aside from the Velaryons and Arryns, the Starks are the best possible match for Aegon III's heir.. The Martells are out of the picture since Dorne was still an independent kingdom back then (note: it was even Daeron I who conquered Dorne), the Baratheons betrayed Rhaenyra's cause and allowed Prince Lucerys Velaryon, Rhaenyra's son and Aegon III's brother to be killed and the Lannisters fought for Aegon II in the last civil war.. Therefore i think a Stark-Manderly daughter is the best choice, of king's blood and stayed loyal to Rhaenyra and Aegon III's cause during the Dance of the Dragons.. Also, seeing that King Aegon III ordered his second son Baelor to be the one to continue the practice of incentous marriage to his own sister despite his reluctance, meaning, a non-Targaryen blood lady was most probably chosen for the young Daeron..

I know, there is a slight problem since it is known that Cregan Stark was just a minor when during the Dance of the Dragons, so meaning, for his granddaughter to marry Aegon II's eldest would cause issues in the time line.. Unless Cregan married early and begot his eldest son Rickon who later begot Sansa who was later chosen as a bride for Daeron I..

What i'm thinking is Daeron was bethrothed Sansa at a very young age was were married shortly before or after his accession as king at the age of 14.. It is possible that the couple was ordered to wait until the queen is in the right age before consumating the marriage (such as the case of Charlotte of Savoy, Queen of France) and Daeron I later died at the age of 18 which makes Sansa's age around 13 or 14, which is why Daeron I failed to begot a son with his wife.. We'll just a theory thoughbut it sounds awesome.. :)

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I dont think any other house in the North likes the Boltons, who in return were pretty isolationist. And i think the Starks were still peeved about Bolton kings skinning Stark kings for shields.

This^^^^^

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This is just a basic query.



There are names that begin with 'A', like Arya. How possible is it for these to be changed spellings? Aerya would look like what's accepted to be a Targaryen name.


The purpose of this would be to hide any connection. While it many have been accepted before Targaryens came to power, and Torrhen Stark bend the knee, after might not have gone down so well.



Who knows? Perhaps it's Targaryens that put the 'E' in.



It may seem like looking for blood connections when none ought to be there. However, there is a saying that's been heard in Britain many times. It never takes too many family connections before you find Royal Blood. No true Briton is too far from Royalty. It's even been a storyline in TV shows, both serious and comedic.


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