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Strength of House Velaryon


Vikingr

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Okay so this is something I find a little bit odd. In the main series, House Velaryon is a relatively weak when compared to other noble families. The narrow sea islands are too sparsely populated to provide any significant manpower and it seems that their contribution to Stannis' cause was hardly anything at all. Something like a handful of ships and maybe a thousand men, give or take a few hundred.



In the Princess and the Queen on the other hand they seem to be one of the most powerful houses around and a legitimate threat. It is stated that "the greatest lord to pledge his strength to the princess was Corlys Velaryon" and "only the Iron Islands could hope to match the strength of House Velaryon at sea." It pretty much establishes that the Velaryons were not considered a lesser house at the time (Archmaester Gyldayn even directly states that they weren't a lesser power). Finally, it also says that more than half the army that had sailed from Dragonstone to seize the Iron Throne was made up of men sworn to House Velaryon.



So basically they are providing Rhaenyra with 50% + of her army and the strongest navy in the realm. This is a huge difference in power between the Dance of the Dragons and the War of the Five Kings so I can't help but wonder. Firstly, how come they are such a weak house now? And secondly, how did they become so powerful in the first place?



I know they had close marital ties to the Targaryens at the time, but as far as I know they still held the same lands and titles back then as they do now. How come Driftmark could field such a large military back then but now it's hardly nothing at all? Did they own any additional lands back then? Or did the Targaryens maybe grant them overlordship over some other houses?


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Maybe its the case that the Crownlands probably swore fealty to them rather than directly to the Iron Throne, as the Seven Kingdoms was probably more unstable during the reign of Viserys I after the Old King died. It's entirely possible that to cope all of his Crownlander vassals were given Corlys Velaryon as a liege. Also considering both his brother and his only daughter of marrying age married both of Corlys' children I think it's safe to say that the Velaryons probably had standing of their own somehow. Either Corlys was famed throughout the land enough that both of his children got prominent members of the royal family. Perhaps Rhaenys had power under Viserys which she felt she would get with Rhaenyra as well. The Targaryens held their Velaryon cousins in high regard. What I think is most likely is that Corlys and his forefathers probably built up the power of Driftmark as the years went by, so they were probably just wealthy, pure and simple. Driftmark could be a wealthy area of Westeros, high tax bracket maybe.


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People argue, that the Velaryons lost a lot of their wealth and fleet during the Battle of the Gullet, but that's not really the case. Yes, they lost Spicetown and High Tide, it seems, but they only lost two thirds of their ships or so. And Alyn Velaryon's fleet seems to have played a very important part during the Conquest of Dorne, which should have led to another rise of House Velaryon, due to the wealth and goods the conquerers won before the Dornishmen rebelled again.



Later on they must have declined severely, either over a longer period of time, or quite at once if they backed the wrong side during a rebellion. It may even be that Robert's victory at the Trident contributed to that...



But we still don't know who Daemon Blackfyre's wife was - a Velaryon would easily be possible. If that's case, it's very likely that several Lords Velaryon backed the Blackfyres later on. Right now, we have no idea whose side they took during the first Blackfyre Rebellion. Even if Daemon's wife was no Velaryon, it's possible that they ended backing the wrong dragon during one or two of the rebellions...


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I think there must be something significant to explain why there doesn't seem to be more Velaryon brides to Targaryen kings or princes after a point. Then again, with the wives of Viserys II, Daeron I, Baelor Breakspear, Rhaegel, Maekar, Prince Daemon, Aerion, Aegon V, and Jaehaerys II unknown, as well as the betrothals that Egg's sons broke unknown, it may be that marriages with Velaryons ceased more recently, or a century or more ago. Perhaps they were involved in the broken betrothals?

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I agree with Lord Varys- Daemon Blackfyre was a cosiun to the Velaryons of the time, while the Targaryens didn't have any connection to them anymore. Except Elaena's bastards. Daemon marries Jane Waters, lord Velaryon's bastard sister. From then on the Velaryons backed the Blackfyres. Repeatedly.


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Okay so this is something I find a little bit odd. In the main series, House Velaryon is a relatively weak when compared to other noble families. The narrow sea islands are too sparsely populated to provide any significant manpower and it seems that their contribution to Stannis' cause was hardly anything at all. Something like a handful of ships and maybe a thousand men, give or take a few hundred.

In the Princess and the Queen on the other hand they seem to be one of the most powerful houses around and a legitimate threat. It is stated that "the greatest lord to pledge his strength to the princess was Corlys Velaryon" and "only the Iron Islands could hope to match the strength of House Velaryon at sea." It pretty much establishes that the Velaryons were not considered a lesser house at the time (Archmaester Gyldayn even directly states that they weren't a lesser power). Finally, it also says that more than half the army that had sailed from Dragonstone to seize the Iron Throne was made up of men sworn to House Velaryon.

So basically they are providing Rhaenyra with 50% + of her army and the strongest navy in the realm. This is a huge difference in power between the Dance of the Dragons and the War of the Five Kings so I can't help but wonder. Firstly, how come they are such a weak house now? And secondly, how did they become so powerful in the first place?

I know they had close marital ties to the Targaryens at the time, but as far as I know they still held the same lands and titles back then as they do now. How come Driftmark could field such a large military back then but now it's hardly nothing at all? Did they own any additional lands back then? Or did the Targaryens maybe grant them overlordship over some other houses?

1000 men is a lot for any lord that isn't directly serving under a Lord Paramount. Only secondary powers like the Freys and Manderlys rival that kind of manpower. Look at House Osgrey and Webb, they could only field around 10-50 men. 1000 fighting men mean at least 50,000 or so people are living under your rule. Whenever someone sends men like that, it's also up to them how many to send. Sending ALL of your men would be very much out of the ordinary, I reckon most lords would only expect you to send half of your total forces. The others are to keep order in your province and defend your lands. It also depends on who is calling the banners. Ned could have gotten more men than Robb did for instance, because he had a stronger hold over his lords. Robb also didn't wait for the full forces of the North to gather either. I mean look at how many men the Umbers can still field, even after being one of the main contributors to the cause. Lady Dustin also only sent the bare minimum.

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Don't forget that by TPATQ the House Velaryon was basically a de facto cadet branch of house Targaryen, with many Valeryons themselves riding dragons. It's reasonable to assume that as Targaryen power waned and dragons became extinct, their power dwindled with it.


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I agree with Lord Varys- Daemon Blackfyre was a cosiun to the Velaryons of the time, while the Targaryens didn't have any connection to them anymore. Except Elaena's bastards. Daemon marries Jane Jeyne Waters, lord Velaryon's bastard sisterdaughter. From then on the Velaryons backed the Blackfyres. Repeatedly.

Daemon did indeed have bloodties to the Velaryons. Stronger bloodties than the Targaryens, apparently, had. It's not unlikely that the Velaryons backed up Daemon, and that this was what caused them to lose power eventually.

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Who came up with this theory that Daemon may have married Jeyne Waters? Is that confirmed anywhere? It would not be the best match Daemon could get, since Jeyne was never legitimized. Another, as of yet unheard of, legitimized daughter of Aegon the Unworthy, or a trueborn daughter of Elaena Targaryen would make much more sense.



Elaena had seven children, Jon and Jeyne Waters, and a 'Plumm son' most likely named Viserys (the Lord Viserys Plumm mentioned in TMK). That leaves four children unaccounted for. It would not surprise me if both Daemon Blackfyre and Princes Maekar and Rhaegel married daughters of Elaena Targaryen.


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I'm not sure who came up with it, but it's just that: a theory. Daemon's wife has not been confirmed anywhere.



If anything, allowing Daemon to marry anyone with Targaryen blood, wether it's another bastard of Aegon, or a daughter of Elaena, would be a dangerous thing, since it would give Daemon much more to go by. But of course, Daemon got married while Aegon still ruled, not when Daeron ruled, so Daeron will have been powerless to stop any such marriage.



That Daemon was married to a bastard might not be the case at all, IMO, since the lords of Westeros seemed to stand behind Aegon legitimizing him and joking about him being his heir. If Aegon had given Daemon a good marriage, that might have shown favor to Daemon in a subtle way.


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Do we really know that Daemon was married while Aegon still ruled? If that's the case, then Daemon cannot have been pissed that Daeron II did not allow him to marry Princess Daenerys. Which he supposedly was according to TSS.



I remember a rather long debate going on whether Daenerys was supposed to become Daemon's second wife - speculating that not being allowed to marry Daenerys was what eventually triggered Daemon's rebellion in 196 AC. But that makes little sense, in my opinion, especially since what we have learned about the Targaryens during the Dance and before strongly suggests that Aenar, Aegon, and Maegor may have been the only Targaryens who had multiple wives at the same time.



The mother of Daemon's children is still alive in TMK, and my best guess is that Daemon married shortly after Daeron ascended the Iron Throne - which should also have been the time when Daeron decided to marry Daenerys to Prince Maron. He would have had all the time in the world since he was married to Myriah when Baelor the Blessed ascended the Iron Throne to prepare his treaty with Sunspear, so there would have been that many time needed for negotiations.


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Aegon and Aemon Blackfyre were 12 when they died at the Redgrass Field, on 196. That would put their birthdate in 184, the year of Aegon IV's death.

I don't think we can be 100% sure on whether the marriage was before or after Aegon's death. The part about Deamon loving Daenerys would suggest the later, but it requires quite a strech: the Redgrass Field and the twins birth should be late in the year (December), with the conception taking place nine months before (March), the wedding the previous month (February), and Aegon's death just before (Jannuary).

It's still possible, because in any case Daemon was 14 in year 184. He couldn't have been married much earlier.

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Well, it could work. Aegon dies early in the year, Daeron makes it clear that Daemon won't get Daenerys, and Daemon marries and impregnates another woman.



We don't really know when the Redgrass Field happened, exactly. The Blackfyre Rebellion lasted a year or so, so it could have happened in the end of 196, making Aegon and Aemon 12 years old when they died.


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Well, it could work. Aegon dies early in the year, Daeron makes it clear that Daemon won't get Daenerys, and Daemon marries and impregnates another woman.

This makes the most sense, IMHO. Maybe Aegon IV was even douchebaggy enough to promise Daemon or both of them that they would marry, but there was no formal betrothal yet at the time of his death. I.e. a variation on the Quentyn Ball situation.

Daeron II came to the throne, vetoed the match for obvious reasons and maybe even arranged another marriage for Daemon ASAP to prevent him from trying to elope with Daenerys or to cozen up to one of the Lords Paramount via a marriage. Lessons learned from the Dance or something along these lines.

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Even if Daemon married during Daeron's reign, I don't think that the bride was choosen by Daeron. Daemon would (and could) refuse to marry anyone he believed to be below his standards. And after being legitimized and thus becoming a full Targaryen, his standards should be very high.

In that scenario, it would be more likely that some audacious lord anticipated that Daemon was to become a key political figure and hurried to offer his daughter to him. During the turmoil with the transition, I don't think that Daeron could have opposed to the match, specially if it was consumed right away (as it seems that was the case).

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I can imagine that part of Aegon's nastiness may come from the fact that he was the first Targaryen born after the Dance, and, due to his personality, should have grown sick of his uncle's and father's stories about the tragedy/evil of infighting/civil war.



I can see him trying to place the seeds for another Dance of the Dragons just to spite Daeron and Naerys. He had only two legitimate children, so he used his bastards to cause trouble.



Nothing really new on Daena in the App, I'm afraid. She has her own entry, but there is nothing new in there. My thought that her claim may have had something to do with the rebellion came from the fact that Daena, as a strong and willful woman, may have thought that she should have succeeded to the Iron Throne after Baelor's death. Especially since she was also married to him for some time.


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Who came up with this theory that Daemon may have married Jeyne Waters? Is that confirmed anywhere? It would not be the best match Daemon could get, since Jeyne was never legitimized. Another, as of yet unheard of, legitimized daughter of Aegon the Unworthy, or a trueborn daughter of Elaena Targaryen would make much more sense.





I think I was the one who started this theory (or at least I'm one of the very early adapters). I think Jeyne Waters was the perfect match for Daemon. Not only because she is the Elaene's eldest daughter and the only one that really has a shot at birthing the twins (if we agree that her other daughters were only born after she had Viserys than they can't be old enough I think), but also because it would fit Daeron II policy.



Daeron took care of his siblings, but he knew that Daemon could pose a problem for his reign (just like the first Daemon was a pain in Viserys I ass). If Daemon married to the new Lord Velaryon's bastard half sister, he was set for life, since I think the Velaryons at the time were still rich and had ample opportunities for a young warrior like Daemon to make himself useful (he could have sailed around the world, Corlys style if he had wished it).



On the other hand the marriage doesn't really gain Daemon new allies and it puts him in his place (bastard marrying another bastard). His marriage would have been a constant reminder to the world that Daemon was not the rightful heir to the IT. The Velaryons at the time were probably steadfastly loyal at first, but were eventually won over by Daemon's gamble (a bit like the Baratheon's in tPatQ).









Elaena had seven children, Jon and Jeyne Waters, and a 'Plumm son' most likely named Viserys (the Lord Viserys Plumm mentioned in TMK). That leaves four children unaccounted for. It would not surprise me if both Daemon Blackfyre and Princes Maekar and Rhaegel married daughters of Elaena Targaryen.






I'm personally convinced that Daemon and Maekar at the very least married Elaene's daughters. It would allow GRRM the opportunity to give a bigger role to a quite formidable woman.


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We don't really know whether Jon and Jeyne were Elaena's first children. It would be easily possible that she had them between marriages, or while being married to her second husband.



My take on the thing is that the Plumm husband was some sort of cruel jape by Aegon IV, and I'd find it interesting if she eventually was actually married to Alyn's son - perhaps while having his affair with him. That would be interesting. But I guess that would tricky to achieve, since she married two times on a king's behest and once for passion. But Daeron could have married her to Alyn's son to allow her to be close to her actual, married lover...



I don't think Daeron II thought that Daemon would develop into a real problem. If he did so, he could have revoked Aegon's will - with the help of the High Septon and other authorities - declaring all his half-siblings bastards again. If that had been done directly after Aegon's death - or covered up as the last deed of a demented dying man - Daemon and the Great Bastards would not have become a threat, I think.



Daemon was only fourteen years old when Aegon died, and all his noble-born siblings were younger. Daemon may have been grown up at the Red Keep as Daena's son, but Bittersteel, Bloodraven, and Shiera would have fallen into obscurity had Daeron II not allowed them to stay at/come to court.



In that sense, I can easily see that Daeron chose a suitable noble bride - perhaps even a bride with Targaryen blood - for Daemon. We don't know yet anything about the relationship between Daena and Daeron, but if they liked each other, this would not be unlikely. Especially if Daena were still alive.


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We don't really know whether Jon and Jeyne were Elaena's first children. It would be easily possible that she had them between marriages, or while being married to her second husband.

The Oakenfists age makes that highly unlikely. He was most likely her first lover.

I don't think Daeron II thought that Daemon would develop into a real problem. If he did so, he could have revoked Aegon's will - with the help of the High Septon and other authorities - declaring all his half-siblings bastards again. If that had been done directly after Aegon's death - or covered up as the last deed of a demented dying man - Daemon and the Great Bastards would not have become a threat, I think.

Daeron II was wise enough to see that he could turn into a problem. He hoped not of course, but a wise leader looks to the future. And revoking Aegon's will is a terrible idea. It would have given credence to rumors of Daeron's parentage, he would get lot's of troubles with Aegon's bastards and their respective families (I would imagine that the Brackens and the Blackwoods for instance were thrilled with Aegon IV recognition of his children) and he would be indebted with the HS and the Lords who aided him.

As to covering up the last deed of a dying man, we don't know where Aegon IV gave his last proclamation. For all we know half the court was present at his bedside. It would have been bad PR to undermine the Kings authority.

Daemon was only fourteen years old when Aegon died, and all his noble-born siblings were younger. Daemon may have been grown up at the Red Keep as Daena's son, but Bittersteel, Bloodraven, and Shiera would have fallen into obscurity had Daeron II not allowed them to stay at/come to court.

As great beauties, renowned warriors and sorcerers they would have made their mark on the world.

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