THOSE WHO SING

[Ellfoy]

Really good and beautiful thread. It explains the title, not only the "ice and fire" but for once the "song of ice and fire".

On the relation between Ghost and Jon, I found your observations really interesting because I have always got the sense that It was different that the ones between the others Starks kids and their direwolf. It seems that Ghost is able to take over Jon in someway, rather that Jon controlling Ghost.

Someone supposed that what had gone wrong during the Summerhall tragedy may have been the lack of music in the tentative of bringing back dragons, I found that interesting because we know that Rhaegar would always come back from Summerhall with a new song and he is the character who say "a song of ice and fire" in the books so... maybe he was able to hear too.

Ps: the fact that Jon, Dany and Bran are the three POV that are able to hear the song makes me think that they are the three main characters.

Ps 2 : Someone gives Jon Snow a harp please !

[Alia of the knife]

:) You've hit the mark!

The songs are also said by Bran to be quite beautiful. As a point of contact, I wonder if the First Men were drawn to the Singers because of the beauty. . .

Thanks Eira! And I think it's similar to the songs of the Sirens, accept one man,(a Stark😀), wasn't led to his destruction.

[wolfmaid7]

Really good and beautiful thread. It explains the title, not only the "ice and fire" but for once the "song of ice and fire".

On the relation between Ghost and Jon, I found your observations really interesting because I have always got the sense that It was different that the ones between the others Starks kids and their direwolf. It seems that Ghost is able to take over Jon in someway, rather that Jon controlling Ghost.

Someone supposed that what had gone wrong during the Summerhall tragedy may have been the lack of music in the tentative of bringing back dragons, I found that interesting because we know that Rhaegar would always come back from Summerhall with a new song and he is the character who say "a song of ice and fire" in the books so... maybe he was able to hear too.

Ps: the fact that Jon, Dany and Bran are the three POV that are able to hear the song makes me think that they are the three main characters.

Ps 2 : Someone gives Jon Snow a harp please !

Thank you very much Ellfoy i realy think this is key to unerstanding the magical interactions in the series.Yes,i share your feelings when it comes to Ghost and Jon and i've come to realize that they have the strongest note because they are the same note.It's weird that there are times when Jon dreams i.e the Skirling Pass,prior to him Warging Ghost in his dream he was the white wolf which is a different identity.

The Summerhall obervation was brilliant and i totally agree,but i think the people in attendance were not sung to by the Dragon eggs.Meaning it was important that whoever heard the songs were present at Summerhall to perfom the ritual themselves.They probably should have waited instead of trying to hatch the eggs.I think its spot on that Rheagar could hear Dragonsong.I think his birth there did a reverse to Dany's ritual.

Thanks Eira! And I think it's similar to the songs of the Sirens, accept one man,(a Stark), wasn't led to his destruction.

Yeah that was nice.

[Eira Seren]

Thanks Eira! And I think it's similar to the songs of the Sirens, accept one man,(a Stark), wasn't led to his destruction.

:) Like the Last Hero, he must have learned to sing along.

Really good and beautiful thread. It explains the title, not only the "ice and fire" but for once the "song of ice and fire".

On the relation between Ghost and Jon, I found your observations really interesting because I have always got the sense that It was different that the ones between the others Starks kids and their direwolf. It seems that Ghost is able to take over Jon in someway, rather that Jon controlling Ghost.

Someone supposed that what had gone wrong during the Summerhall tragedy may have been the lack of music in the tentative of bringing back dragons, I found that interesting because we know that Rhaegar would always come back from Summerhall with a new song and he is the character who say "a song of ice and fire" in the books so... maybe he was able to hear too.

Ps: the fact that Jon, Dany and Bran are the three POV that are able to hear the song makes me think that they are the three main characters.

Ps 2 : Someone gives Jon Snow a harp please !

Thank you very much Ellfoy i realy think this is key to unerstanding the magical interactions in the series.Yes,i share your feelings when it comes to Ghost and Jon and i've come to realize that they have the strongest note because they are the same note.It's weird that there are times when Jon dreams i.e the Skirling Pass,prior to him Warging Ghost in his dream he was the white wolf which is a different identity.

The Summerhall obervation was brilliant and i totally agree,but i think the people in attendance were not sung to by the Dragon eggs.Meaning it was important that whoever heard the songs were present at Summerhall to perfom the ritual themselves.They probably should have waited instead of trying to hatch the eggs.I think its spot on that Rheagar could hear Dragonsong.I think his birth there did a reverse to Dany's ritual.

Ok, you two have me thinking. . . A different sort of song, I know. . . but do you suppose Tom O'Sevens might know anything about what really happened with the singing at Summerhall? He and Mance are probably the only singers of this type in the books who GRRM doesn't eviscerate.

[LongRider]

GRRM has also made a trip to Australia & New Zealand, I'm sure he's drawn parallels from their indigenous culture as well, Aboriginal people have "Dreamtime" legends & stories about the natural world around them, creation, myths & about how they came to be, they are often sung in harmonies with primitive percussion instruments for rhythm. The Maori have a stomping, chanting fierceness for their tribal songs & stories.

To expand on this, in addition to Dreamtine, there was also the "Songline" concept. From Wikipedia;

"Within the animist belief system of Indigenous Australians , a songline, also called dreaming track, is one of the paths across the land (or sometimes the sky^[1]) which mark the route followed by localised 'creator-beings' during the Dreaming. The paths of the songlines are recorded in traditional songs, stories, dance, and painting.

A knowledgeable person is able to navigate across the land by repeating the words of the song, which describe the location of landmarks, waterholes, and other natural phenomena. In some cases, the paths of the creator-beings are said to be evident from their marks, or petrosomatoglyphs, on the land, such as large depressions in the land which are said to be their footprints."

It's also mentioned in the creation myths that the world was sung into existance by the Creator beings.

This is a great thread!

[LongRider]

Another thought; I recently watched the 1960 film, 'Spartacus'. In the film the actor Tony Curtis played a slave named Antoninus who was a "singer". But when he performed a song, it wasn't sung, but was a spoken recitation of a long poem. This has me thinking, could the spoken word be part of the "Song of Ice and Fire" as well? I'm thinking mostly of Old Nan's stories, spoken, as were the songs of Antoninus.

Old Nan's stories were a combination of history, myth and perhaps, magic? We the readers learn alot from Old Nan so I wanted to mention her to see what you all think.

[wolfmaid7]

:) Like the Last Hero, he must have learned to sing along.

Ok, you two have me thinking. . . A different sort of song, I know. . . but do you suppose Tom O'Sevens might know anything about what really happened with the singing at Summerhall? He and Mance are probably the only singers of this type in the books who GRRM doesn't eviscerate.

I'd peg Mance for knowing if any songs were sang,but i think it has more to do with the ritual.If they were trying to hatch Dragons and whoever were doing it didn't "vibrate" the right note that i believe led to the disaster.Their error trying to hatch the eggs when the Dragons sang them no songs.

To expand on this, in addition to Dreamtine, there was also the "Songline" concept. From Wikipedia;

"Within the animist belief system of Indigenous Australians , a songline, also called dreaming track, is one of the paths across the land (or sometimes the sky^[1]) which mark the route followed by localised 'creator-beings' during the Dreaming. The paths of the songlines are recorded in traditional songs, stories, dance, and painting.

A knowledgeable person is able to navigate across the land by repeating the words of the song, which describe the location of landmarks, waterholes, and other natural phenomena. In some cases, the paths of the creator-beings are said to be evident from their marks, or petrosomatoglyphs, on the land, such as large depressions in the land which are said to be their footprints."

It's also mentioned in the creation myths that the world was sung into existance by the Creator beings.

This is a great thread!

I like this quite a bit and it goes to the prevelence of song in the Animist paths which GRRM has based the Old gods in the North on.I especially like the part i bolded because Fire and Ice which are called primodial elements and used Teutonic magic are credited with creating and destroying the world.In this series i think the covergence of these two songs are a reshaping event for Westeros,where some aspect of it will be destroyed and something new shall emerge from the chaos.

[LongRider]

LongRider wrote:

It's also mentioned in the creation myths that the world was sung into existance by the Creator beings.

I like this quite a bit and it goes to the prevelence of song in the Animist paths which GRRM has based the Old gods in the North on.I especially like the part i bolded because Fire and Ice which are called primodial elements and used Teutonic magic are credited with creating and destroying the world.In this series i think the covergence of these two songs are a reshaping event for Westeros,where some aspect of it will be destroyed and something new shall emerge from the chaos.

I like this idea of the clash of songs creating chaos so something new can emerge. In the current chaos of the Wot5K I don't see much beyond more chaos, suffering and sprialing into more of the same.

I've read a tiny bit of the Heresy threads, mostly the one's about the WW not being the "bad guys" as thought. WolfMaid, what type of songs do you think the WW have? Have you had a chance to think about that at all? Their appearance, espically if they are not what they seem, could cause all sotrs of chaos I would imagine.

:dunno:

[Eira Seren]

To expand on this, in addition to Dreamtine, there was also the "Songline" concept. From Wikipedia;

"Within the animist belief system of Indigenous Australians , a songline, also called dreaming track, is one of the paths across the land (or sometimes the sky^[1]) which mark the route followed by localised 'creator-beings' during the Dreaming. The paths of the songlines are recorded in traditional songs, stories, dance, and painting.

A knowledgeable person is able to navigate across the land by repeating the words of the song, which describe the location of landmarks, waterholes, and other natural phenomena. In some cases, the paths of the creator-beings are said to be evident from their marks, or petrosomatoglyphs, on the land, such as large depressions in the land which are said to be their footprints."

It's also mentioned in the creation myths that the world was sung into existance by the Creator beings.

This is a great thread!

Not quite the same, but this reminds me of Sea Chanties and songs where the places and keys to navigation are in the versus. . . what happens if the singer gets mixed up or forgets a verse?! I like the parallel though, of navigating the sea or navigating the land and spiritual world.

I'd peg Mance for knowing if any songs were sang,but i think it has more to do with the ritual.If they were trying to hatch Dragons and whoever were doing it didn't "vibrate" the right note that i believe led to the disaster.Their error trying to hatch the eggs when the Dragons sang them no songs.

I like this quite a bit and it goes to the prevelence of song in the Animist paths which GRRM has based the Old gods in the North on.I especially like the part i bolded because Fire and Ice which are called primodial elements and used Teutonic magic are credited with creating and destroying the world.In this series i think the covergence of these two songs are a reshaping event for Westeros,where some aspect of it will be destroyed and something new shall emerge from the chaos.

:agree:

Your point really illustrates how magic is a double-edged sword. . . there's a price, it seems for getting the song right, and a very nasty cost should things backfire.

[Alia of the knife]

Really good and beautiful thread. It explains the title, not only the "ice and fire" but for once the "song of ice and fire".

On the relation between Ghost and Jon, I found your observations really interesting because I have always got the sense that It was different that the ones between the others Starks kids and their direwolf. It seems that Ghost is able to take over Jon in someway, rather that Jon controlling Ghost.

Someone supposed that what had gone wrong during the Summerhall tragedy may have been the lack of music in the tentative of bringing back dragons, I found that interesting because we know that Rhaegar would always come back from Summerhall with a new song and he is the character who say "a song of ice and fire" in the books so... maybe he was able to hear too.

Ps: the fact that Jon, Dany and Bran are the three POV that are able to hear the song makes me think that they are the three main characters.

Ps 2 : Someone gives Jon Snow a harp please !

That is a really interesting notion that as a "true dragon," dragon song may be an aspect of his visions.

[wolfmaid7]

I like this idea of the clash of songs creating chaos so something new can emerge. In the current chaos of the Wot5K I don't see much beyond more chaos, suffering and sprialing into more of the same.

I've read a tiny bit of the Heresy threads, mostly the one's about the WW not being the "bad guys" as thought. WolfMaid, what type of songs do you think the WW have? Have you had a chance to think about that at all? Their appearance, espically if they are not what they seem, could cause all sotrs of chaos I would imagine.

:dunno:

I actually believe this 100% and in fact the wws are elementals of ice,as such they are not eveil or good just a force of nature and if you run a foul of them you are in for a world of hurt.But i don't think they are here to wreak havoc on mankind that to me is an incorrect conclusion based on Westrosi culture not understandng their purpose.Back in the OP i listed the quote from GOT prologue by Will who described their sound as "crackling ice on a lake" and that would be true to his ears,just as to Cat the wolves howling sounded like that.I think the wws do have an ice song.

Bran said the Direwolves song was familiar as if he knew it but somehow forgotten,and i think that is true for Jon who has the deepest connection to Winter.On his ranging North his eyes had already ben open to the beauty that is North and exclaimed "there is magic here after all" and how much Sansa would go crazy.

I think there is enough forshadowing that he is the one primed to hear the magic in that song.

:agree:

Your point really illustrates how magic is a double-edged sword. . . there's a price, it seems for getting the song right, and a very nasty cost should things backfire.

True

That is a really interesting notion that as a "true dragon," dragon song may be an aspect of his visions.

Definitely correct.

[fuem]

Well the books are called A song of ice and fire.

[wolfmaid7]

Well the books are called A song of ice and fire.

Well yes,but we are looking at the deeper meanings of Songs in the context of the story.Song of Fire and Ice what does that mean to you? What are the underlying uses of songs,magically what do they represent?

[Ellfoy]

That is a really interesting notion that as a "true dragon," dragon song may be an aspect of his visions.

The problem is that I see Egg as a "true dragon" too, so he should have been able to hear the dragon song, so it doesn't explain what went wrong at summerhall.

[fuem]

Well yes,but we are looking at the deeper meanings of Songs in the context of the story.Song of Fire and Ice what does that mean to you? What are the underlying uses of songs,magically what do they represent?

Means waiting. Waiting for the books to be done

[wolfmaid7]

The problem is that I see Egg as a "true dragon" too, so he should have been able to hear the dragon song, so it doesn't explain what went wrong at summerhall.

Your right,Maester Aemon did say his "brothers dreamed of Dragons and it killed them" so they must have heard the song in order to be led to do the ritual like Dany was.So something did go wrong.What was happening at that time,i can't remember?Was there like in fighting among the Targs was their treachery at Summerhall?

[Alia of the knife]

The problem is that I see Egg as a "true dragon" too, so he should have been able to hear the dragon song, so it doesn't explain what went wrong at summerhall.

I think he was, but I also agree that there was some treachery at Summerhall which even Selmy alludes to.

I don't know if Aerys was involved as I don't think tPtwP necessarily had to be a son of a king, but born of Aerys line, but maybe in his ambition, he took advantage of the situation.

[wolfmaid7]

I think he was, but I also agree that there was some treachery at Summerhall which even Selmy alludes to.

I don't know if Aerys was involved as I don't think tPtwP necessarily had to be a son of a king, but born of Aerys line, but maybe in his ambition, he took advantage of the situation.

:agree:

[Jarocal]

Here is the passage from the Silmarillion. it is the first paragraphs of the book.

There was Eru, the ONe, who is Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but a few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to a deeper understanding and increased in unison and harmony......The Iluvatar said to them: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.

Then it goes on about how the Ainur began singing their song and through it, changed their melodies into solid form and created the earth. I think the song theme you are tackling here is a very important one. The song connects people and things to each other. It is unique to each being. Dany hears Drogons song, a song no one else will ever hear. A song he sings for her to wake her and bring her to life in GOT. She was practically dead in the saddle when Drogon came to her with his bonding song and saved her. I think there a re a lot of parallels between the songs in ASIOAF and in the Silmarillion, also the Silmarillion is much darker than TLOTR, a lot more death of favorite characters so naturally it has more in common with GRRM's work IMO.

'Yet ever as they listened they came to a deeper understanding and increased in unison and harmony' I think this applies to all the bonds between Direwolves and the Starks and Dany and Drogon. The longer they are together and the more they learn of each other the better they understand the song of their counterpart. This is shown more in the Ghost/Jon bond than anyone else IMO.

I vaguely thought of this, but more poignantly I thought of Tom Bombadil.

"Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,

Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.

None has ever caught him yet, for Tom, he is the master:

His songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster."

and

"Get out, you old wight! Vanish in the sunlight!

Shrivel like the cold mist, like the winds go wailing,

Out into the barren lands far beyond the mountains!

Come never here again! Leave your barrow empty!

Lost and forgotten be, darker than the darkness,

Where gates stand for ever shut, till the world is mended."

[Alia of the knife]

I was introduced to the music of "Wardruna" by way of the series "Vikings," and the music is just a beautiful. It is a reminder of the spoken word, as well as a peoples history, which may also be the most significant thing for tCotF.

The first song I don't have a translation for, but it has been interpreted as a war prayer at the battle of Ragnarok, (perhaps somone can here can translate it), and the second is a funeral song, which I did track down the translation.

Both are from the album "Yggdrasil."

Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SNTSoizcvME

Wardruna – Helvegen Lyrics, ( the Road to Hel)

Norwegian—————————————————--English translation

Hvem skal synge meg—————————————Who shall sing me

i daudsvevna slynge meg———————————-into the death-sleep sling me

når eg på Helvegen går————————————When I walk on the Path of Death

og dei spora eg trår er kalda, så kalda—————--and the tracks I tread are cold, so cold

Eg songane søkte——————————————-I sought the songs

Eg songane sende——————————————I sent the songs

då den djupaste brunni————————————when the deepest well

gav meg dråper så ramme——————————--gave me the drops so touched

av Valfaders pant——————————————-of Death-fathers wager

Alt veit eg, Odin———————————————--I know it all, Odin

var du gjømde ditt auge————————————where you hid your eye

Hvem skal synge meg—————————————Who shall sing me

i daudsvevna slynge meg———————————-into the death-sleep sling me

når eg på Helvegen går————————————When I walk on the Path of Death

og dei spora eg trår er kalda, så kalda—————--and the tracks I tread are cold, so cold

Årle ell i dagars hell—————————————-early in the days end

enn veit ravnen om eg fell——————————--still the raven knows if I fall

Når du ved Helgrindi står ———————————When you stand by the Gate of Death

og når du laus deg må riva———————————-And you have to tear free

skal eg fylgje deg———————————————--I shall follow you

over Gjallarbrua med min song—————————--across the Resounding Bridge with my song

Du blir løyst frå banda som bind deg!———————--You will be free from the bonds that bind you!

Du er løyst frå banda som batt deg!————————--You are free from the bonds that bound that you!

*

Quote from Håvamål -- The High Ones Speech, Poetic Edda

Døyr fe, døyr frender——————————————-Cattle die, kinsmen die

Døyr sjølv det sama——————————————--You yourself will also die

men ordet om deg aldreg døyr——————————but the word about you will never die

vinn du et gjetord gjevt—————————————--if you win a good reputation

Døyr fe, døyr frender ——————————————--Cattle die, kinsmen die

Døyr sjølv det sama———————————————-You yourself will also die

Eg veit et som aldreg døyr————————————I know one that never dies

dom om daudan kvar——————————————-the reputation of those who died

And here is the actual song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=z0PvZGVPiJU