[Book Spoilers] EP407 Discussion

[Princess of Ice and Fire]

Yes it is certainly a massive wall that Martin is building and it takes discipline and humility to prune back so many great characters to actually complete the novels and meet publishing deadlines.

Genius and ego are not enough.

[When Harry met Sansa]

I have a massive post pending but this isn't really the thread to continue on with these so I'll refrain. I wish things would have worked out differently is all.

[Rockroi]

i'm constantly amazed at the criticisms i read of nudity/sex and i rarely see anything written about violence/bloodshed... both violence and sex were a big part of this world, just accept it

Gratuitous violence - violence for violence sake - does bring about criticism. Its not as cliche as your... cliche criticism would indicate. I have, routinely, criticized gratuitous, meaningless violence.

Such as Theon's gratuitous torture scenes - I said that after a while it was just "torture porn." And my criticism of the scene between Mel and Selayne was not that they showed Mel's boobs; I felt that the scene had no point. I thought (and still think, mind you) that everything done in those scenes could have been background to more important scenes involving characters we actually care about. I added that - hey- at least we saw Mel's boobs! The indication being that there was nothing worthwhile in the scene, unless you just like looking at boobs we have ... already seen! Much like the needless dialog, we also got needless boobs.

This is not some sort of Puritan holiness from me. I have no problem with nudity. Here? I had a problem with the whole scene.

[SerArthurHeath]

This is brill- http://m.imgur.com/a/GUBms?gallery

[A Man Is A Man]

I really don't see what the big deal is about the show finishing before the books. I think by now we can see that the show and the books are separate entities, with characters and events happening differently between them. After seven seasons or whatever, we will get the show version of ASOIAF, and eventually, 240 years from now, we will get the finished book versions. ;)

Both can be good, both can be separate and different from each other, and both can be enjoyed on their own terms.

[Vvornth]

Ser Jorah Mormont, him remaining with Dany all this time is in my mind one of the biggest departures from the books. In the show Dany now has a capable advisor that prevents her from doing mistakes she while pile up in the books. Will Ser Jorah be dismissed at all and Tyrion just make his own merry way to Mereen?

Also anyone else getting as perplexed as I on how fast the Dany storyline is running compared to the rest of the show?

[Dipsy]

It is the coherence of the show to the books where the issue is. However must not be the fact the show started on unfinished content, and is partially filling in the blanks creating some gaps as the show progressess. Leaving out many characters, events some due to budgeting, some are script reasons, providing more air time to any lead characters.

The inaccuracy of events in particular this season when given example below. Some events this seaosn have lead to some spoilers. Some are becoming quite painful to watch. In the certain comments above blunt statements have been made. Saying that it is GRRM fault for not finishing his work, or that this TV show is better, because the story is more coherent. Agreed that the written story jumps about between its many characters, containing thousands of words to read thorough. These pages of text are often translated into a few seconds of TV air time when covering as example chapters on a battle or war, a skirmish etc. However more often it is the utter lack of descriptions on many details seen within the show that are further brought into question.

Can anybody tell me please, why these aren't considered as holes when expressed as coherent?

Stannis meets the Iron bank. The Iron bank loans money to Stannis to achieve total victory in Westeros, sit the Iron throne. Stannis after being granted a vast sum of money, but he doesn't recruit any more men. Particularly any sell swords, these sell swords of whom we have heard about in the show, from Westeros origins, as well as from Deanery's.The North really really needs Stannis it was seen in the flames. So instead Stannis re-recruiteds that same whoring pirate, who he had already hired previously. The Iron Bank lends Stannis the money. The reason for the loan being Stannis is a real straight edge, what he says he does. "Banker" go beg somewhere else, I have a finger for you. The Iron bank had never tried to press any payment from the current king Tommen and his council. Instead we were offered a ridiculous notion. The Lannisters are broke because they do not forge any more gold, the last nugget of their's, was mined out years ago. Are we from planet stupid, assuming that they actually farmed, minted their gold, not smelting the various irons to trade for gold? The realm and the realms council has not presently defualted on any sum's owed. A prior petition was ignored from Cersei, during the Battle of the Blackwater, a time of immediate war. if Vary's has little Bird's everywhere. You can bet your bottom dollar, that the Iron bank has twice as many debtors, being well aware of current events. Particularly which houses sit the King's council, the gold they produce between them, which taxes can be raised, what stores they have. However what was shown was not at all coherent to concepts. Rather some hammy pomp, a great speech on how to get a loan, if you have got really poor credit. Begging the obvious question of why. this information was necessary? The way this will play out, Stannis will likely give the money to the Night's Watch, for food and their upcoming crisis. Had this interaction come after King's Landing this Season's events, maybe it would have played out so much better? Why if Stannis has gold, doesn't he go somewhere else, hiring more men, not the North. The Flames are not really so relevant now? The ending war, take a wall at a time the furthest from the throne that will make the banker's real happy.

Asha/Theon/Bastard. Asha has been told to leave her brother Theon the halfbreed alone from her father king of the Ironborn. "Asha" Daddy please I reallys love my baby brother, he is missing his phallus, please really need to save his attachment. Anyhow. 50 hardest ironborn, real killers ever, go quest to rescue the eunuch. Dun Dun. Meanwhile back at the Dreadfort. "Roose" naughty naughty Bastard, what have you done, we needed him? I tell you to go take Moat Calin because I am the ruler of the norths I have been smuggled into White Harbour. We should have used it for profit first, Bastard, tried that already, so sold his most expenisest piece. Now he is my Reek. Theon present upon hearing all this information. Much later and the botched rescueee. The Bastard is having passionate sex for the first time in all his life, he normally is acquainted to extreme fetishism. Asha and the army of Hardened Killers, kills to find Theon's sleeping quarters. But there is only one way into Theon's cellar from a stairwell leading to all the caged mutts and Theon. Information commented on by her own Ironborn Killers. The mutts start barking nobody kills them, silencing their barking, alerting more guards. Meanwhile Theon has turned into Reek loosing all of his senses having the dreadforted stockholm syndrome. Asha decides not to knock the patient out. Untill he can be brought back to his senses, or hypnotise him until giving him the cure for his condtion, lack of phallus. The Bastard comes charging in shirtless having blood/wax smeared all over his chest before attempting to kill any Ironborn. Reeks has gone back to his cell and Asha can now magically escape from the only way into the cellar. Reek is now needed for Moat Calin.. The Bastard now coddles Reek, saying Reeek I need you to be Theon as your reward. What have I just watched? Dumb and dumbest.

Night's Watch. We saw a huge army of White Walkers attack the Fist of the Northmen, driving off the Night's Watch back to Castor's Keep. The army of White's has all but vanished, many Watch were killed during their escape. Leaving only a handful of later traitors back at Castor's. Jon Snow after climbing the wall escapes from his Wiildling compainions, rides a few miles to Castle Black. Information of what happened at Castor's coming to light from Samwell who managed to escape Castors. Killing the stupidest of monster ever with no real intelligence shown babbbbbbbbbbie gief babbbie. Information from Samwell is releated back to the brothers, who are now pissing their pants about the coming war with Mance. The Watch is worried, wanting to go and kill the traitors at Castors. Samwell sends Gilly to Mole Town to a brothel to stop any rape at Castle Black. But all the Borthers frequent that brothel anyway. Meanwhile the Wildings over the wall have been joined by some real cannibals, pillaging what is assumed as Mole Town. Leaving a boy to run and tell the Watch what has just happened. But instead the Bothers ignore this threat within walking distance of a child. Riding to Castor's keep because the traitors demand the Watch's justice, and they are 60 miles away 60 miles back. These traitors if caught will give information about Castle Black. This information must be. How to climb a wall hand book? The fact all the other Castles along the wall are not in use? But we already knew this because Wildlings have been climbing the wall for years.The other castle's tunnels are sealed in, with a wildling climbing a wall, you would have thought they would have used a door first. Well they are Wildlings. But I get it, because the traitors will say how many men the Night's Watch have at Castle Black? This information won't prevent the upcoming war, no matter what useless numbers are revealed. The cutthroat was such an epic character who got shafted in the back. Because he couldn't cut a hostage's throat whom was headlocked. Thankfully the best melee yet although within obvous error to the above. Jon gets his guard dog back, a dog that now attacks it's captors, when previously was all like good boy. Anyhow the Watch are now back at Castle Black all is well in the North when preparing for Mance. Now the other Wildling can attack Castle Black because Jon Snow and the wolf are home. Bran wanted to greet his brother but couldn't, Hodor wanted to say Hodor. The White's replenish their army from baby sacrifices.

Tell me Please? How this information remotely compares to any book read? It is like a really bad day in a cartoon.

I could write in so many many more sceens, but when this fantasy in TV is supposedly of the highest calibre? What can be said?

Edited May 21, 2014 by Dipsy

[rmholt]

I could write in so many many more sceens, but when this fantasy is supposedly of the highest calibre? What can be said?

I don't know what would make it OK for you but I still reread. I find the material I miss from the show is still there in the books.

We don't know what's going to happen next week. Some scenes don't seem to make sense. They might later. Blackwater and the Lion and the Rose were quite different from the book but they were two of the best episodes. They were written by GRRM. So there's more than one way to tell this story, even by him. So many complaints are based on what people assume is going to happen in future episodes.

Some of the technical aspects of the show are groundbreaking. The construction of IceHenge was a feat on a level never before attempted.

Still there are budget and other limitations. Some of the book passages are all in someone's head and must be transmitted some other way which isn't going to be as tidy in all cases. Or they might be left out. If scenes don't make sense, keep watching. Maybe it will work out.

I've even seen complaints about the show not matching the books for scenes that are the truest to the books down to dialogue identical to the book. Sitting at the TV with a checklist we know now is going to be crazy-making.

[Dipsy]

What do you mean? Would make it Okay for me? If I am questioing some of the many incoherences, do you not consider many others would also be? Surely there are many Unsuilled of whom have been refered to, who are so amused by a misogyny of gratuitous themes when keeping themselves entertained, not questioining the entire pictures shown.

Not in complete relevance to my attempted humour made in the prior post. We don't know what will happen next week? Outside of the obvious way in which theatric's are employed, it is quite obvious to see where the sceens have been building, what the added content will bring to the eventual story of this season. No I do not know where the final eventual story leads Dream of Spring, neither can this season guarantee that either, because the fully written content has not been released as of yet. Some obviously has been ahead, why we have had some added spoilers developing. Being brought into the season, when building up to any later events. Although most can say what, any conclusion to this present season will likely offer to those readers suggested.

My clarity was to the holes developed, in particular to the prefab constructed to fill in their blanks.

Yes this show is great. A real treat to the fantasy genre, yes it does try. Also when massively epic to TV in general, where so many are employed within many roles, and no single role is utterly infallible. The sets, their settings and themes are truly amazing, wonderful to experience in the many surroundings offered.

Although despite this there have been inconsistencies listed, I could certainly name a few more. No this is not because I am a reader, although I do hold that advantage. Simply because those sceens suggested do not fit entirely into the information that they have offered. As I have tried to question. Some hasn't happened yet, but even so, has sometimes been with some flaws.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Dipsy

[The Prince of Newcastle]

Oh, lets not forget "Don't make me rue the day I raped your mother."

I think that line is shit and is GRRM trying way to hard. I don't understand the fandom. It's not funny or witty.

[Cersei the Great]

that is pretty on par with the books...injured during a fight, not an especially huge battle, wound festers and he dies....im totally with you on the secne being perfectly lame...but i think thats what they are going to do, basing it on the close-up of the wound and arya pushing the point about fire on the wound to avoid festering...i dont envision any huge battles coming up for the Hound...

make shit up...nothing else to do...GRRM's fault imo...lazy old coot shouldn't have green lit the show in 2011...should have pushed it till at least 2013, get additional 2 years to write the books...i mean seriously...if he took 5 yrs for AFFC and 6yr for ADwD, how the hell did he expect to finish AWoW and ADoS both in under 7 yrs....HBO doesn't make more than 8 season shows...it is known...

GRRM=asshole

I'm also thinking more and more that LHS will be pushed to next season...though all rumors suggest M. Fairley did shoot an ep this season, might be just Berric breathing life in to her...nothing with Brienne....

I am curious...has a show ever before surpassed the writing of the books? It will truly suck for me if the show becomes a spoiler for the books but I will obviously have to suck it up and deal with it.

[sj4iy]

Ser Jorah Mormont, him remaining with Dany all this time is in my mind one of the biggest departures from the books. In the show Dany now has a capable advisor that prevents her from doing mistakes she while pile up in the books. Will Ser Jorah be dismissed at all and Tyrion just make his own merry way to Mereen?

Also anyone else getting as perplexed as I on how fast the Dany storyline is running compared to the rest of the show?

That's because she didn't really have much from here on out in the first place.

[Dragon Queen]

I think there are only 2 plausible explanations for this. One, the writers don't want her to be stuck in Essos for such a long time that viewers grow bored of her storyline and think she is never getting to Westeros. By moving up her storyline, it's very possible that next season could pass beyond her ADWD plot and get her to more interesting things. Showing Dany eating figs and asking for cushions doesn't make for good TV.

The second explanation I would have is that perhaps her storyline has so many events that it needs to cover, so many things she needs to do, that it only makes sense for D&D to get through her plot line as quickly as possible. She has her whole rule Meereeen arc, meet Quentyn/Tyrion/Victarion and so on, Battle of Meereen, battle with Jhaqo- a long list of to-do's.

Of course, it's entirely possible that both of these things are true. Her ADWD storyline is too slow paced and boring for viewers, and she has a lot of content coming up for the show to cover.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Dragon Queen

[Dipsy]

Her acting is slightly somewhat medicore, often quite harsh within amounts of vehemence, maybe she is still assumed as the child queen a problem? Although now she should not have to overly prove her entitlements within more of her stately elegance and in subtley of her manner and charms. She has so much to offer, but sometimes this can be seen to be forced or unnatural.

Undoubtedly there is a lot more to her story throughout the course of upcoming season to be added. Though from what we have seen of Meereen her throne room is tiny, not entirely capable of hosting much of a court. Her chambers are also quite tiny compared to her title. Her lack of handmaidens and some staff is dubious.

Vary's birds questioned in only possible explanation of future betrayal's. Though doubtfully as to plausible when fitting into his later roles? That information could have extended her screen time though other means. Jealously betrayal from within, when provding a richer storyline to her character this season. Her lack of handmaidens and some staff has left out other extentsions to her arc currently.

Who is to say how it all develops next season? More will be added, though some of what we have seen currently, could be considered as lacking

Edited May 21, 2014 by Dipsy

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I think that line is shit and is GRRM trying way to hard. I don't understand the fandom. It's not funny or witty.

It's called opinion, and I think it's absolutely hysterical. It also serves a purpose for Roose, putting Ramsey in his place.

[dbunting]

Really liked this episode, very well done. Didn't care for the scene with the mountain, made no real sense. What kind of training is killing untrained un armored people? Also the Mel bath scene. I loved the visual(!) but it seemed out of place.

If Peter Dinklage doesn't win an award for his acting this year it will be a travesty.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Watching the episode again. Just noticed Allister order barrels of pitch to be placed atop the Wall. Those will come in handy!!!

[Cubarey]

"I am curious...has a show ever before surpassed the writing of the books? "

Not a show but a movie, but the Godfather I and II were actually better then the book.

"I think it would be sad to see his books rushed or the show degrade but I don't foresee that happening. I think it would be tragic if fans would rather he try to rush his writing and forego his own life which happens to include a megaton of fan interaction and fun. If he just stopped writing now, (forget the show) it's still a great yarn and there's still a nice body of work. "

It would be sadder if the series were never to be finished by GRRM. Without it being completed he would face the same fate of Robert Jordon and the Wheel of Time. At best the series might be finished by another author. That would definately hurt GRRM's legacy, and if you think that a man in his sixties does not care about his legacy you are fooling yourself. At this rate the series will likely not be finished until GRRM is in his 70's. Yes he has a life outside of the series but his professional reputation is bound to the series.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Cubarey

[Chebyshov]

This is brill- http://m.imgur.com/a/GUBms?gallery

This is why I haven't gotten work done today. Just amazing.

Link to all of them (she did this entire season so far plus Mysha): http://captainofalltheships.tumblr.com/tagged/chrys-watches-got-full

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

I am curious...has a show ever before surpassed the writing of the books? It will truly suck for me if the show becomes a spoiler for the books but I will obviously have to suck it up and deal with it.

i cant say if i've ever enjoyed a movie/show more than the books...i agree it would suck for the show going on it own path...who knows, maybe at that point all the book purists will start raving about how the shows last 2 seasons were better than the books...i doubt it though :dunno: