[Book Spoilers] EP407 Discussion

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

If Peter Dinklage doesn't win an award for his acting this year it will be a travesty.

^^ totally agree

[Colonel Green]

I am curious...has a show ever before surpassed the writing of the books? It will truly suck for me if the show becomes a spoiler for the books but I will obviously have to suck it up and deal with it.

If by "surpass" you mean "come out before", it's not uncommon in Japanese anime adaptations of manga.

[sj4iy]

If by "surpass" you mean "come out before", it's not uncommon in Japanese anime adaptations of manga.

In my experience, anime is more likely to throw in a lot of filler or go on hiatus until the manga catches back up rather than moving beyond it. Or sometimes it just stops altogether.

Edited May 21, 2014 by sj4iy

[The Lizard King]

This is why I haven't gotten work done today. Just amazing.

Link to all of them (she did this entire season so far plus Mysha): http://captainofalltheships.tumblr.com/tagged/chrys-watches-got-full

OMG! That is so hysterical!

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Well your mileage may vary, I became a fan around 1980 when Sandkings was published. I wouldnt have cared if he never did anything again.

He has written many other short stories, longer short stories, books, and book series.

The first 5 books are fine. When he finishes the books he plans I fully expect there will be unanswered questions. (one of them will still be Who is Coldhands.) and judging on past behavior he will answer such questions on panels, in interviews even via emails as he is extremely accessible to fans.

So should he keep writing further books in order to answer all those questions after the series officially ends? He wrote a history of the Westeros Dragons meant to be in the style of a maester and it certainly felt like a rather dull textbook to me.

He actually is responding to fan requests for more Dunk and Egg and more history of Westeros and IIUC he wasnt intending to get that involved. Even he doesnt know the answer to some questions, such as how did Jaqen end up in the dungeons. Often people ask questions that are answered in the books already.

Aside from the expertise of you and your friend there is competing evidence that he knows exactly what is going to happen but it still has to be written, Think it's easy? Why do you think everything hangs together so well? Dr Watson drove Holmes nuts by saying the solutions to mysteries were so obvious once they are explained. The books hang together so well because they have been subjected to hard work. That takes time. It is a favor to us that he isnt responding to fans wanting him to rush his work.

When we last saw all the characters they were all heading for one of several geographical points for big events. I imagine he knows his plans for them. Otherwise why send them there?

My money is against either, and speaking for myself this sort of comment is not appropriate. He doesnt read these forums but his friends and relatives might,.

Here's a post from one of the RTFM FAQ posts introducing the forum:

"What happens if the show catches up with the novels?

Nothing. The executive producers have a broad sense of where GRRM intends the story to go, and can always ask him for more details. They're fully prepared and able to continue on on their own without new novels to guide them."

So you see this question has already been answered in this very forum.

As to whether he has gotten lazy or distracted he keeps providing us with chapters so he must be up to something.

That's fine for you, but if he was purposely planning on not finishing the books (which I don't believe) then he would be a narcissist at best. And I didn't say he WAS lazy or distracted, just that if things are going to drag out it makes more sense that laziness or distraction were responsible not a master plan to achieve immortality at the expense of breaking readers' hearts. Edited May 22, 2014 by TheWhiteRabbit

[rmholt]

That's fine for you, but if he was purposely planning on not finishing the books (which I don't believe) then he would be a narcissist at best. And I didn't say he WAS lazy or distracted, just that if things are going to drag out it makes more sense that laziness or distraction were responsible not a master plan to achieve immortality at the expense of breaking readers' hearts.

And I'm saying there is another possibility, which is that he is working hard on the books.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

And I'm saying there is another possibility, which is that he is working hard on the books.

Hope you're right

[StrollofShame]

This is why I haven't gotten work done today. Just amazing.

Link to all of them (she did this entire season so far plus Mysha): http://captainofalltheships.tumblr.com/tagged/chrys-watches-got-full

Incredibly funny. The looks on some characters' faces are captured & captioned so perfectly! I couldn't stop laughing. Just lovely.

[Palladinho]

D@D have a rape and gruesome sex fetish. Which is sad because they end up putting unnecessary scenes into the show which taint it. We don't need a constant reminder that Oberyn Martel is 'dangerously sexy' every time he speaks.

And I wish they would give Stannis more Stannis scenes. If they're quite done screwing his character up, they should show him over battle plans, or giving orders or something of the sort; not just silently pacing letting Davos do all the talk. But yes, don't need Oberyn to always talk about sex.

[Dipsy]

I doubt this series will make up their own endings outside of author's express consent. Why wouldn't Winds of Winter be made into a double series? The same could be done with DWD, possibly further extending till 2017?

GRRM has plenty of time to finish, these absurb remarks on delay are irrelevant. Give him time to finish his within the top 5 of all time fantasy series.

I think most authour's set out, with a game plan, GRRM especially, he is a scriptwriter after all. Meaning he knows how endings, character arc's, will folliow into his universe, but filling in the blanks with interactions to all of the many details which then fit into the entire story, take a lot of hard worker. He was reportedly 3/4 written, now within editing?

I think any ending would be easier to write, if when tying all ending pieces together, had he had a game plan from the start, but don't quote me.

It might have also been money. A mean assumption. Release upon maximum demand for the win, a guranteed sell out to everyone involved. There was somekind of contract, undoubtedly, with a clause on how this all would progress. GRRM would be very hated if the show starts their seasons before his work is released. These minor spoilers within the show haven't affected too much of his literature, because within the show they haven't be seen as particularly important to the greater story involved. When still following mostly the same game plan. Having more added time for any leads involved, some budgeting, cutting out certain characters and events. Some assumptions to what follows: The White Walkers army of babies. HAHA

The show making up their own ending would have to be with the authour's express consent. If it does indeed catch him? There is still time yet, 2016, then 2 more seasons on WoW. A delay, when giving followers time to digest. If when releasing the final ending after a small seasonal delay. Speculation. Who knows?

The IMP, his trial was outstanding, acting of merit, to his skills of award winning calibre. However outside of his haircut, he has been slightly inconsistent throughout, moments of elation, followed by some unnatural glumness, which aren't quite as consistent to circumstances seen. Having more events this present season coming, fngers crossed. A very hard role to master, sympathy, especailly within the show's many changing events. Possibly certain excuse may have been, giving the many others their own chance to really shine. If when playing any roles that potentially, are not infallible, rather then them being caught up on contract issues or whatever else is their troubles, when attempting their best. Overall some inconsistency throughout this present season to certain events. As as show maintaining a massive global fan base, whose numbers aren't really dropping. Hopefully when having so many fans to continue until any final completion. Dubious wether merits will be awarded this season. TV is such a hard act to follow, so many many shows. Episodes to go untill this season's ending, though if for any wins. Speculation is a...... Quick run for your lives.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Dipsy

[The Prince of Newcastle]

It's called opinion, and I think it's absolutely hysterical. It also serves a purpose for Roose, putting Ramsey in his place.

I know. To each their own.

I just though it was stupid and not particularly witty. I love Roose as well.

I think a better example of his coldness is just the way he treats Theon. There is no compassion at all.

[White Harbors Wrath]

I doubt this series will make up their own endings outside of author's express consent. Why wouldn't Winds of Winter be made into a double series? The same could be done with DWD, possibly further extending till 2017?

GRRM has plenty of time to finish, these absurb remarks on delay are irrelevant. Give him time to finish his within the top 5 of all time fantasy series.

I think most authour's set out, with a game plan, GRRM especially, he is a scriptwriter after all. Meaning he knows how endings, character arc's, will folliow into his universe, but filling in the blanks with interactions to all of the many details which then fit into the entire story, take a lot of hard worker. He was reportedly 3/4 written, now within editing?

I think any ending would be easier to write, if when tying all ending pieces together, had he had a game plan from the start, but don't quote me.

It might have also been money. A mean assumption. Release upon maximum demand for the win, a guranteed sell out to everyone involved. There was somekind of contract, undoubtedly, with a clause on how this all would progress. GRRM would be very hated if the show starts their seasons before his work is released. These minor spoilers within the show haven't affected too much of his literature, because within the show they haven't be seen as particularly important to the greater story involved. When still following mostly the same game plan. Having more added time for any leads involved, some budgeting, cutting out certain characters and events. Some assumptions to what follows: The White Walkers army of babies. HAHA

The show making up their own ending would have to be with the authour's express consent. If it does indeed catch him? There is still time yet, 2016, then 2 more seasons on WoW. A delay, when giving followers time to digest. If when releasing the final ending after a small seasonal delay. Speculation. Who knows?

The IMP, his trial was outstanding, acting of merit, to his skills of award winning calibre. However outside of his haircut, he has been slightly inconsistent throughout, moments of elation, followed by some unnatural glumness, which aren't quite as consistent to circumstances seen. Having more events this present season coming, fngers crossed. A very hard role to master, sympathy, especailly within the show's many changing events. Possibly certain excuse may have been, giving the many others their own chance to really shine. If when playing any roles that potentially, are not infallible, rather then them being caught up on contract issues or whatever else is their troubles, when attempting their best. Overall some inconsistency throughout this present season to certain events. As as show maintaining a massive global fan base, whose numbers aren't really dropping. Hopefully when having so many fans to continue until any final completion. Dubious wether merits will be awarded this season. TV is such a hard act to follow, so many many shows. Episodes to go untill this season's ending, though if for any wins. Speculation is a...... Quick run for your lives.

I know this really isn't the place for this, but...no offense, you seem in complete denial of what's going on...so get ready for GRRM to be "hated".

HBO will not delay or have a break between seasons. I guarantee it. I will bet you a hardcover copy of A Dream of Spring...there is a momentum behind the show, they're not going to derail that for GRRM to catch up. He's had 5 years to catch up (4 seasons and pre-production, so probably closer to 6 or 7 years since Dance was largely already written) and we don't even have a release date yet. D&D know GRRM catching up is a nonsensical notion at this point and they along with HBO are not going to entertain the thought. That's why they met with him...so they can figure out how to finish this up. GRRM is in total denial and wasting time with way too many peripheral projects.

At the very least Bran & Co, Brienne & Co and Sansa/Littlefinger will have plot next season that has not been written yet. Possibly Dany as well.

The show will pass the books by, believing otherwise at this point is delusional. GRRM's publishers let slip and then retracted that WoW was not going to be released until 2015...so if we're VERY lucky, it will be out before season 6 airs in 2016.

Sure, there's a possibility that an 8th season can be added if there's just too much going on to encompass in two seasons in the last two books. But season 6 will be material from Winds of Winter for the majority of the characters. 2017 would then be season 7 and 2018 a highly unlikely season 8. There is no way on earth GRRM will have a DoS out before then.

Edited May 22, 2014 by White Harbors Wrath

[Newstar]

On the show passing the books...this dilemma happens all the time in Japan, when popular ongoing comic book series ("manga") are adapted at the height of their popularity for TV in animated form ("anime"). Manga are published weekly or monthly. Manga are not so much like DC or Marvel comic books, which start a title and then keep it running indefinitely as long as it's popular and are more like Vertigo series like Y: The Last Man that have a planned beginning, a middle, and a conclusion regardless of popularity, although a few of them can go on for as long as 20 years and the more popular series often have dragged-out conclusions to milk the series for all it's worth. The TV folks want to strike while the iron is hot, so they'll start working on an adaptation even while the manga is still going on and hasn't been concluded yet. So what happens when the anime adaptation starts when the manga is still ongoing and isn't finished yet?

1. Manga already finished or finishes before the anime: Anime incorporates manga canon, is very faithful.

2. Anime only uses published manga story and is too short to adapt all of manga story (a 12-episode anime, e.g.), manga is ongoing: Anime only adapts a discrete chunk of the manga, showing part of the story, manga keeps on rolling.

3. Anime runs out of published manga story and is ongoing indefinitely, manga is ongoing: Anime uses non-manga "filler arcs" with enclosed new plots, giving the anime time to kill until there's fresh manga material available to adapt for the anime.

4. Anime runs out of published manga story and needs to conclude, manga is ongoing: Anime will deviate from the manga story to come up with a satisfactory ending.

Interestingly, there was a massively popular series called Fullmetal Alchemist where this problem arose. The FMA anime started up when the manga was still ongoing but was less than halfway through the total number of chapters that would be published (with chapters being published once a month). Predictably, the anime ran out of story, and so the anime deviated significantly from the manga and came up with its own back half of the plot and its own conclusion. A completely off-source, new animated movie was made using the anime canon.

Eventually, of course, the manga was about to be completed. So another anime was made (FMA: Brotherhood), remaking the entire series and from beginning to end adhering pretty strictly to manga canon (although the manga and the anime finished pretty close to one another, as I recall). They even used a number of the same voice actors for the characters.

So bringing that list back to ASOIAF, I've seen fans suggesting a #2 solution--D&D only adapting through the end of the published books--a #3 solution--D&D killing time, either with "filler arcs" (Robert's Rebellion) or with a hiatus--as well as a #4 solution: D&D deviate from the books and come up with a non-book ending to tie everything off nicely. However, D&D have specifically ruled out a hiatus, and they have also successfully demanded details on all the characters' post-ADWD plots, which would seem to rule out an intentional deviation in the event that GRRM is unable to finish the books in time (since if they were going to come up with their own ending, why would they need that information?). Nor can I see them marching up to the end of ADWD and saying "Oops, sorry guys, guess you're on your own." While there's a chance, albeit what seems like a remote one to me, that TWOW could be released prior to Season 5, I don't see any way ADOS gets released by the spring of 2018, which it would have to be to stay ahead of the eighth season if there are even eight seasons and not seven.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Newstar

[jet199]

I know this really isn't the place for this, but...no offense, you seem in complete denial of what's going on...so get ready for GRRM to be "hated".

HBO will not delay or have a break between seasons. I guarantee it. I will bet you a hardcover copy of A Dream of Spring...there is a momentum behind the show, they're not going to derail that for GRRM to catch up. He's had 5 years to catch up (4 seasons and pre-production, so probably closer to 6 or 7 years since Dance was largely already written) and we don't even have a release date yet. D&D know GRRM catching up is a nonsensical notion at this point and they along with HBO are not going to entertain the thought. That's why they met with him...so they can figure out how to finish this up. GRRM is in total denial and wasting time with way too many peripheral projects.

At the very least Bran & Co, Brienne & Co and Sansa/Littlefinger will have plot next season that has not been written yet. Possibly Dany as well.

The show will pass the books by, believing otherwise at this point is delusional. GRRM's publishers let slip and then retracted that WoW was not going to be released until 2015...so if we're VERY lucky, it will be out before season 6 airs in 2016.

Sure, there's a possibility that an 8th season can be added if there's just too much going on to encompass in two seasons in the last two books. But season 6 will be material from Winds of Winter for the majority of the characters. 2017 would then be season 7 and 2018 a highly unlikely season 8. There is no way on earth GRRM will have a DoS out before then.

It probably has been written, years ago.

That is why D&D can take Arya's killing in TWOW and use it in the first episode because a lot of this stuff is finished and the show production team have access to it. When he wrote ADWD GRRM rewrote a Tyrion dream chapter 7 times then scrapped it and wrote the Daznak's Pit scene from about 5 different POVs. This is what holds him up, a couple of problem characters, not the whole story. GRRM had most of Jon's stuff near enough done 10 years before the ADWD was released. It wouldn't surprise me if the characters who will go into TWOW territory in season 5 are also in this position. We know that GRRM had a chapter for Sansa which he moved to the next book and the battle for Meereen.

Also I am slightly more cynical than you in that I think there is a good chance that the release dates for future books will be timed to coincide with the show for marketing purposes. It wouldn't surprise me if the release date for TWOW is the week before season 5 starts.

[Newstar]

I'd like to attribute a lot more weight to Arya's TWOW killing finding its way into Season 4, since that means that D&D must have seen that chapter before the spring of 2013, when they were writing Season 4, but that Arya chapter has been languishing for a long time, much like the Sansa chapter. That doesn't speak to new material, just to very old material that was sitting around that hasn't found its way into the books yet.

Using the Arya chapter, or the bumped Sansa chapter, or the other bumped chapters from ADWD as evidence that "a lot of" TWOW stuff is finished makes no sense to me, as they are leftover chapters from ADWD. And if indeed GRRM had most of Jon's stuff done 10 years before ADWD's release, that's another indication there's not that much proximity in terms of time between GRRM finishing "a lot of stuff" on a novel and its completion and release.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Newstar

[White Harbors Wrath]

I don't doubt that a ton of stuff was written years ago, but whether it was or wasn't really doesn't matter.

If GRRM has every Jon chapter until the end completed, and for arguments sake, has writers block with Theon...yet knows his overall character arc...and has conveyed to D&D both characters overall arcs for show purposes...what does it matter if Jon is complete? Both characters are mapped out enough for the show, and only Jon/Arya etc being complete doesn't get a book out any faster.

Again, that publishers statement that disappeared from the net stated several years, no sooner than 2015...that doesn't really sound like it'll be out early spring before season 5.

Tweet screenshot from January of THIS year:

http://whiteharbour.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/capture.png

Also another Tweet suggesting late '15:

https://twitter.com/Werthead/status/426885973427761152

Forum thread discussing it:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102943-winds-of-winter-is-almost-certainly-years-away/

Edited May 22, 2014 by White Harbors Wrath

[Dipsy]

I can't understand a word of that. I really don't want to try to decipher any of what he has said it would be like breaking the enigima machine. Here is a crack at that pot.

Imdb has put out postings with assumptions. These will likely change on what will be renewed by HBO. Because they have a demand presently. The season on display do not run the full course of the books, so why are they going to chop the last two books off any potential series, rather then further renew this show until completion.

Also separately because we only have assumption on renewal why can't that assumption further be extended to provide more cover strecthing DWD into another season?

HBO could be hated by everyone on the planet for cancelling a show that they haven't completed?

It is not unheard of for a show to have a seasonal break before returning to their market.

Most of what you said has made no sense at all. White habours wrath.

GRRM won't be hated because you say so. The book could be finished by 2016, realistically, in time for any HBO renewal. I seriously doubt that any content was written before, ahead, or in advance of this series. Except some prior knowledge of a potential game plan, possibly consisting of some knowledge into character arc's, endings. This still would not fit all the pieces into any story, when likely to change if those pieces didn't fit. This is why it takes years to write a good novel. There isn't any proof to suggest that the book was written in advance, in fact there is the opposite.There is a demand for this product, because it is gold, so you the above, assume greed is the motive? In your conspiracy based hypothetical assumption, of why we aren't yet reading an unpublished novel. Heck the simple answer is normally the correct one.

I had assumed a writer like GRRM would have some kind of game plan prior to setting out on such an epic undertaking. Meaning an ending would possibly be easier to write, when holding onto some knowledge of character arc's, endings. This is an assumption. Although meaning the last book might be released quicker then the others. Winds of Winter could be a real clincher cliffhanger you name it is going to be epic. HBO are renewed till 2016, so what is not suggest they make 3 season out a book or make DWD into 2 seasons? Further extending the TV seasons till 2019, If a seasonal break, Dream of Spring 2019 or 2020? Speculation is a........Angrier guy above

Edited May 22, 2014 by Dipsy

[White Harbors Wrath]

I'm not really sure what you're even talking about at this point. Everything I referenced (as well as the couple posters adjacent) was based on publishers statements and things the show producers have said. that doesn't mean they're fact, but at least they're coming from "inside" sources.

Everything you have said is based on some sort of wild speculation and assumptions of what you think might happen.

HBO is not going to cancel anything, no one is suggesting that. HBO is going to finish the story before GRRM...

I am most definitely NOT the one saying GRRM will be hated, I was quoting you. "GRRM would be very hated if the show starts their seasons before his work is released."

[White Harbors Wrath]

I can't understand a word of that. I really don't want to try to decipher any of what he has said it would be like breaking the enigima machine. Here is a crack at that pot.

Imdb has put out postings with assumptions. These will likely change on what will be renewed by HBO. Because they have a demand presently. The season on display do not run the full course of the books, so why are they going to chop the last two books off any potential series, rather then further renew this show until completion.

Also separately because we only have assumption on renewal why can't that assumption further be extended to provide more cover strecthing DWD into another season?

HBO could be hated by everyone on the planet for cancelling a show that they haven't completed?

It is not unheard of for a show to have a seasonal break before returning to their market.

Most of what you said has made no sense at all. White habours wrath.

GRRM won't be hated because you say so. The book could be finished by 2016, realistically, in time for any HBO renewal. I seriously doubt that any content was written before, ahead, or in advance of this series. Except some prior knowledge of a potential game plan, possibly consisting of some knowledge into character arc's, endings. This still would not fit all the pieces into any story, when likely to change if those pieces didn't fit. This is why it takes years to write a good novel. There isn't any proof to suggest that the book was written in advance, in fact there is the opposite.There is a demand for this product, because it is gold, so you the above, assume greed is the motive? In your conspiracy based hypothetical assumption, of why we aren't yet reading an unpublished novel. Heck the simple answer is normally the correct one.

I had assumed a writer like GRRM would have some kind of game plan prior to setting out on such an epic undertaking. Meaning an ending would possibly be easier to write, when holding onto some knowledge of character arc's, endings. This is an assumption. Although meaning the last book might be released quicker then the others. Winds of Winter could be a real clincher cliffhanger you name it is going to be epic. HBO are renewed till 2016, so what is not suggest they make 3 season out a book or make DWD into 2 seasons? Further extending the TV seasons till 2019, If a seasonal break, Dream of Spring 2019 or 2020? Speculation is a........Angrier guy above

Also, you do realize HBO has said, in print this will go 7 seasons? That doesn't mean they couldn't add an extra 8th season....but they're not stretching this out until 2019. I guarantee that.

[Dipsy]

I'm not really sure what you're even talking about at this point. Everything I referenced (as well as the couple posters adjacent) was based on publishers statements and things the show producers have said. that doesn't mean they're fact, but at least they're coming from "inside" sources.

Everything you have said is based on some sort of wild speculation and assumptions of what you think might happen.

HBO is not going to cancel anything, no one is suggesting that. HBO is going to finish the story before GRRM...

I am most definitely NOT the one saying GRRM will be hated, I was quoting you. "GRRM would be very hated if the show starts their seasons before his work is released."

You haven't quoted anything making assumptions throughout. To the point of an enigma is required for your lack of fact.

I apologises because I have speculated to the extent of probable. We can see renewings from HBO on season up until work that is written, which can be physically constructed into a TV series season. As logical it hasn't be renewed further otherwise this would be public knowledge because the Winds of Winter has not been released yet. If published in 2015 or 2016 HBO will likely renew further seasons, we the public would be made aware of this. 2015 next year there have been many expectations. However if it is not complete what is not to suggest DWD is extended into another season, although somewhat doubtfully?

I said GRRM would be hated if this show finalle an ending is conjured by HBO prior to anything that the authour has published. if upon HBO releasing a finalle before his work is published, well I would burn the books.

Which is why they haven't renewed publically extending their seasons past DWD yet

Edited May 22, 2014 by Dipsy